Talk:Jade use in Mesoamerica

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This article was nominated for merging with Costa Rican jade tradition on January 2010. The result of the discussion was keep.

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 14 January 2019 and 25 April 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Johnt.roberts.97.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 01:00, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Celts

Maybe we could add more information about origins of jade pieces: origin from source as axe forms, colors, whether or not they survive in the modern day. Upload an image from the Yale Art Gallery? What were celts repurposed into, and do we know their functions? Radicchios (talk) 16:14, 6 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Going more in depth into the figurines that were skimmed over

It might be wise to give specific examples of what objects were made out of the jade. For example, adding some information about the how the Maya carved figures of the piscine, maize, and avian tree deities out of the jade would help elucidate just how important jade was in their society.--Jer75 (talk) 14:01, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes--there's also little use made of the illustrations. They aren't referenced or used as examples. Nor is the size or iconography of the illustrated works considered in any detail. Barbara.e.mundy (talk) 23:32, 1 February 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Barbara.e.mundy (talk • contribs) 23:25, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Discussing the aesthetic value of jade over functionality

I would recommend discussing the valuing of aesthetics over function in the creation of Mayan and Olmec art to give proper explanation and reasoning as to why archaeologists and art historians have deduced jade's ancient symbolic usage.--Hazenmayo96 (talk) 13:44, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Adding more information about techniques for working jade

I think that the "Working jade" section would definitely benefit from a more detailed discussion of the techniques that craftsmen used to work jade, such as drilling, pecking, abrasion, incising, etc. This would also help to emphasize the labor-intensive nature of refining jade. I also think that the section should also better connect the working techniques to their symbolic functions, i.e. how drilling was thought to give "life" to a jade piece^[1]. --Alissa8 (talk) 07:01, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Ancient Maya art at Dumbarton Oaks. Washington, D.C.: Dumbarton Oaks Research Library and Collection. 2012. ISBN 9780884023753. {{cite book}}: |first1= has generic name (help); |first1= missing |last1= (help); Explicit use of et al. in: |first1= (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

Steering away from generalizations on jade use in Ancient American cultures

This article seems to be generalizing the Ancient Americans’ use of jade altogether, rather than noting the diversity of different cultures’ aesthetic appreciation of jade. The Olmecs, for instance, valued a more translucent look to their jade and carved it so that light could radiate through. On the other hand, the Mayans strove to create very richly green pieces of jade. Whereas the Olmec aesthetic interest in jade could be derived from the role of light in ancient religious practices, the Mayans aesthetic value of jade can likely be attributed to both religious and wealth symbols. An edit along these lines could elucidate to readers much information on the richness of the Ancient American cultures.^[1] Sneham105 (talk) 07:06, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ al.], Joanne Pillsbury ... , editors ; with additional contributions by Barbara Arroyo ... [et; et al. (2012). Ancient Maya art at Dumbarton Oaks. Washington, D.C.: Dumbarton Oaks Research Library and Collection. ISBN 9780884023753. {{cite book}}: |first1= has generic name (help); Explicit use of et al. in: |first1= (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

Focusing more the uses of jade in Ancient America in place of its source

The opening paragraph of the article covers too much information that could be qualified as unnecessary or extraneous. The article should begin with a simple, objective sentence describing what jade is and which societies used the material in Ancient America. Instead of opening with the statement "some view..." an explanation of the different visual practices involving jade should be highlighted. I also believe that this problem is further revealed in other parts of the article as there is more information on the European discovery of sources of jade than there is about its material uses. [[User:ajr75|ajr75]}, 20:26, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

I definitely agree. Particularly in the "Sources in Mesoamerica" section, the article presents the topic in a way that highlights the Europeans who discovered the sources and how they did so, and focuses less on the significance of the sources of jade and the cultures and people in those geographic centers. I think the information in this section could be reframed to first discuss and highlight the sources of jade and then later discuss how these sources were archaeologically discovered. Another option could be to rename this section "Archaeological Search for Jade," and move it so that it is positioned after the "Uses" section.--Alissa8 (talk) 06:43, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you both. The first paragraph is poorly written, and readers would be better served with a opening that frames the Mesoamerican context. Barbara.e.mundy (talk) 23:32, 1 February 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Barbara.e.mundy (talk • contribs) 23:20, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Lead in paragraph: too specific

The second half of the lead in section seems too focused on the source and quality of the jade itself, not necessarily its use. Could we create a separate section or move it down to the "Sources" section, or perhaps make a new section (e.g. Appearance)? Then we could have the introduction more focused on uses for utility/religion. Radicchios (talk) 20:33, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Jade not used in China before 2nd Millenium CE?

I think this statement is mistaken: jade was widely used in China well before Christ, and were in fact jade burial suits were "relatively common" during the first few centuries of CE among members of the society that could afford them: see Jade burial suit. The line in this article might need some clarification: is it meant to say that jade was commonly used for everyday-use tools in Meso-America and that these would've been affordable to the common people?

Michael Coe quote?

Can anyone confirm the quote by Michael Coe (and maybe add information concerning who he is)? I only included it in my reworking of the article because it was already there, but noted that it was very similar to the grammar and style of the previous version. Thanks!

Salmar 23:16, 21 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Not Used in North America

Surprisingly the exception to the rule that neolithic cultures all used jade is in North America. Nephrite was strewn all over central Wyoming but the indians don't seem to have used it. Similarly there was a lot of Jade in the Kobuk Valley in Alaska and in British Columbia but it doesn't seem to have been used by the natives.204.227.223.53 16:09, 6 November 2006 (UTC)Tlaloc[reply]

Jade page Changes

I made some changes to the page and add external links, in fact I change the China part, Dr. Coe is a renown archaeologist, mainly in the Maya area of Guatemala.Authenticmaya 03:39, 1 January 2007 (UTC)AuthenticmayaAuthenticmaya 03:39, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A jade source not near Motagua River??

Mesoamericanists: This article says that "the only documented source of jadeite in Mesoamerica is in the lowland Motagua River valley." but the map seems to show another source, in western Mesoamerica. Any light on this would be appreciated. Thanks, Madman (talk) 03:25, 11 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

AFAIK the only confirmed sources of actual jadeitite rocks (predominantly composed of jadeite mineral) in Mesoamerica are the couple of Motagua valley locations. I think the second source indicated in the map is meant to be the Balsas River in Guerrero, which does have (at least) serpentine deposits. I think the Balsas river has at least been a long-time suspected or likely candidate in the past as a source of jadeitite, as there have been jade "workshops" uncovered there, and the source of the particular type nicknamed 'Olmec Blue' remained a mystery. But I gather (this is the main paper on it) a fortuitous exposure after erosions from Hurricane Mitch revealed some other Motagua region deposits (Sierra de las Minas, as well as 'upstream' in Jalapa Dept. at Quebrada Seca) with colour characteristics of Olmec Blue jade, possibly solving this mystery.

Apart from that, I've seen some references to alluvial jade/jadeitite in Costa Rica, but it's not clear (in what I read) that these were kosher deposits, or confirmed to be jadeitite. --cjllw ʘ TALK 08:13, 11 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I based the map on Porter Weaver third ed. On page 184 she has a map of highland resources (map 6.2) which shows sources of both serpentine and jade/jadeite along the Balsas river. ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 10:03, 11 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This paper states that "Jaideite constitutes only a small portion of the green stones worked by the Olmec. The center of green stone working among the Olmec was apparently in the vicinity of the Balsas River in Guerrero State. Archaeologists have discovered a workshop near the confluence of the Amacuzac and Balsas rivers with "fragments of jadeite, silex, jasper, onyx, and quartz, as well as obsidian and marine shells, dating to about 1000 B.C." (Griffin 1993: 206)."·Maunus· ·ƛ· 11:03, 11 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, that was fast. Thanks for the information. Madman (talk) 13:20, 11 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If Porter Weaver's map indicates "jade/jadeite" at the Balsas river location, I wonder whether she's using "jade" in a more loose, archaeological/cultural sense, than the stricter geological one (in which 'proper' jade is basically only either jadeite or nephrite; the latter is not found or used in Mesoamerica). By my reading of some other sources (now added to the article's refs) while there was an influential jade- and other greenstone-working industry in the Balsas region, there's still no known actual deposit containing jadeite mineral there; the jadeitite stones found there were (in the absence of such a source) possibly imported from Motagua. The Seitz et al. 2001 paper puts forward the new-found sites to the north and sth of the Motagua river as compatible with the stone quality and colour of the 'Olmec Blue' worked artefacts from Balsas and the Guerrero region. --cjllw ʘ TALK 06:30, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My guess is that she lends credence to the speculations of a source there based on the workshop findings. Apparently people have speculated about a lost jade source on the Balsas since the time of William Spratling.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 09:26, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of the merge proposal is: keep both articles seperate. 2 against, no support and no further comments in a year and a half. -- Simon Burchell (talk) 20:33, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

proposal: Costa Rican jade tradition to Jade use in Mesoamerica

oppose. The sites/cultures in precolumbian Costa Rica (eg Linea Vieja or Guanacaste) are not usually associated with the Mesoamerican culture area. Instead they are usually grouped under the notion of an Isthmo-Colombian cultural area, or the now increasingly deprecated "Intermediate Area" concept. Some sites, at some periods, do exhibit some Mesoamericanesque traits and may also be treated as having participated in Mesoamerican cultural exchange ("southwestern Mesoamerica" periphery), but the jadework tradition being discussed here has probably a closer affinity with Isthmo-Colombian practices. No good reason to merge these two. --cjllw ʘ TALK 07:47, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Costa Rica isn't in Mesoamerica and so shouldn't be included here. Simon Burchell (talk) 11:11, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Maya pectoral illustrations: falsifications!

The two illustrated Mayan pectorals of unknown provenance are rather obvious falsifications. Their use in this article may only have the purpose to falsely 'authenticate' them. They should be removed.Retal (talk) 19:50, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Factual Inaccuracies on this Page

A few comments pertinent to this article:

Recent archaeological fieldwork by Roquette in the Middle Motagua River Valley shows that jade was worked by both elite and non-elite households.

Nephrite does, in fact, exist in Mesoamerica although it is a common misconception that it doesn't - it has been found in the Middle Motagua River Valley near jadeite (ref: "From Stone to Jewel: Jade in Ancient Maya Religion and Rulership," Taube & Ishihara-Brito)

The 'Working Jade' section of this article could greatly benefit from a more detailed discussion. It would be worth mentioning the percussion and abrasion techniques which represent the two main actions taken in working jade and then discussing further particulars Saraaltuna (talk) 13:32, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Lack of Citations

There is quite a lack of references throughout the article to where the information came from. Additionally, some of the sources appear to be vague and unverified, as in the introduction where it is written "some view..." and "it was thought..."

"some view..." and "it was thought..." Are WP:WEASEL weasel words and can be removed. If you want to improve the article you are welcome too as long as you add reliable citations. Senor Cuete (talk) 23:28, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Lead-in section needs replacement

The opening sentence of the article refers to an unidentified 'some' group of people and is overly wordy, bringing in unnecessary and distracting terms like 'influenced' and 'conceptualized'. It could be shortened to say just 'Jade was a rare and valued commodity among...'. The lead-in paragraph should then continue on in the same order that the topics are presented in the article, briefly outlining the sources of jade and then its uses, spiritual significance, and practical value. This would provide a much clearer, more concise, and more accurate introduction to the topic and to the contents of the article. The remaining paragraphs currently in the lead-in section should be moved into their own section under a heading like 'types of jade'. Ecc47 (talk) 00:31, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Several "blocks" of text without citation/ quotations or any semblance of a reference

The best example of this is the paragraph beginning with "From 1974 to 1996", in the "Sources in Mesoamerica" section. Despite several historical references, there are no citations, specifically with the reference to the work of "Field Director Russell Seitz and his colleagues", where the article summarizes his work of "geochemical dating" as well as their findings but fails to cite the original work. In the same section, the author makes a claim that "Jade artifacts, mainly pointed celts, apparently stemming from these Antillean sources..."; by not providing a credible source for this claim, it is difficult to accept the legitimacy of this claim.

Kinich Ahau

The article says:"Kinich Ahau, was often depicted in jade and other materials with a mirror on his forehead." Generally the god with a mirror in his head is regarded as God K - K'awiil. Some authors think that he's a god of Jupiter. In the Maya codices he seems to be a god of other things as well. I question the quality of the cited source, since this is not the consensus in mainstream scholarship on this subject. Should this be removed? Senor Cuete (talk) 15:55, 9 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Ancient Maya art at Dumbarton Oaks. Washington, D.C.: Dumbarton Oaks Research Library and Collection. 2012. ISBN 9780884023753. {{cite book}}: |first1= has generic name (help); |first1= missing |last1= (help); Explicit use of et al. in: |first1= (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

[2] .], Joanne Pillsbury ... , editors ; with additional contributions by Barbara Arroyo ... [et; et al. (2012). Ancient Maya art at Dumbarton Oaks. Washington, D.C.: Dumbarton Oaks Research Library and Collection. ISBN 9780884023753. {{cite book}}: |first1= has generic name (help); Explicit use of et al. in: |first1= (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

[1]

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