Talk:Jacobus of Liège

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography
	This article is supported by WikiProject Musicians.

Composers

This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Composers, a group of editors writing and developing biographical articles about composers of all eras and styles. The project discussion page is the place to talk about technical and editorial issues and exchange ideas. New members are welcome!ComposersWikipedia:WikiProject ComposersTemplate:WikiProject ComposersComposers

Music theory

	Music portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Music theory, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of music theory, theory terminology, music theorists, and musical analysis on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Music theoryWikipedia:WikiProject Music theoryTemplate:WikiProject Music theoryMusic theory
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Iacobus de Ispania. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060609131103/http://www.music.indiana.edu/tml/14th/JACCDM_TEXT.html to http://www.music.indiana.edu/tml/14th/JACCDM_TEXT.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 20:37, 10 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Name might revert soon

Bonnie Blackburn has discovered a reference to the writer that definitively names him as Jacobus Leodensis (Jacques de Liège). As soon as the reference is published it should probably go back to that name. I'd suggest in the meantime renaming "Iacobus" to "Jacobus" since that's what everyone is using regardless of their position on this debate, since I and Js are just orthographic differences at the time. -- Michael Scott Asato Cuthbert (talk) 21:56, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Would agree with moving to Jacobus, per Grove esp. I actually put him in as Jacobus already when I included him in the List of medieval music theorists. Aza24 (talk) 22:11, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Still just waiting for the article to come out (it's in proofs). But definitely no one in musicology is calling him Jacobus de Ispania in new articles. -- Michael Scott Asato Cuthbert (talk) 20:43, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mscuthbert, I figured a move is worth it now, so I've just done so. Would Jacobus of Liège be preferable to Jacobus de Liège or Jacobus Leodensis?

Just to make sure I understand, originally he was called Jacobus of Liège but then an attribution suggested he was "Iacobus de Ispania" and Spanish. Then this discovery itself was pushed back on and it seems that in fact he is still "Jacobus of Liège", correct? Aza24 (talk) 22:08, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aza24: THANK YOU! First and most importantly TL;DL: "Jacobus of Liège" is a great name for the article (it's also what the New Grove was listed under) so let's leave it alone. The longer rest of the story (some of which should go into the Article itself). Early 20th c. and earlier: someone wrote a long treatise who at the end says something like "if you want to know who wrote this look at the first letters of the seven books" which spells Jacobus or Iacobus (anyone who insists on I vs J hasn't spent much time in medieval documents...). For a while people thought that this would be the same person as "Jean de Murs" but Jean=John and Jacobus=James, and they take diametrically opposed stances on a lot of musical things, so different people. The only thing we know for sure is that he's Jacobus; but in his book he talks a lot about the chanting in Liège (and Wallonia) so it was pretty good speculation that he'd be from there, so he was always Jacobus de Liège (which would probably have been Jacques de Liège in everyday speech). Then it's found that another treatise (the Berkeley Manuscript) mentions "Iacobus de Montibus" which could mean "from the mountains" or from "Mons" which is a bit far from Liège to be honest, but the same general part of Europe at least... Lots of wild speculation on who the person could be (should probably be in the article...) bringing us to the early 21st century. Margaret Bent finds an Italian reference (oh, yeah, all the surviving evidence about him is from Italy...) to a copy of the Speculum Musice saying that it was written be a certain "Jacobus de Ispania" (James of Spain). WHOA! That's totally different from anything we'd been looking for. Nothing even vaguely Spanish there, but that's what the name says -- lots of discussion that "hey, the 'of Liège' was always just speculation..." -- Bent agrees that there's not much Spanish in there, but there are some things that are compatible with England and proposes that a certain James of Spain in Oxford is a likely candidate. In 2016 Rob C. Wegman publishes his research on "de Ispania" showing that "Ispania" or "Hispania" was a common Latinization of "Hesbaye" which includes Liège, so yes his name is "de Ispania" but that should be read as "of Hesbaye/Liège/etc." -- the scholarly community breathes a sigh of relief. Then a bit later, Bonnie Blackburn finds a reference in an overlooked copy of another treatise to the work of "Jacobus Leodiensis" -- Jacobus of Liège. So now we definitely have the original name as a correct one. (I've been beating myself up that I didn't find this first, since I had worked on a different treatise in the same manuscript). That article is accepted, in proofs now (I've seen it; it's convincing), and will come out soon. -- Michael Scott Asato Cuthbert (talk) 19:40, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]