Talk:Jacobus of Liège

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Name might revert soon

Bonnie Blackburn has discovered a reference to the writer that definitively names him as Jacobus Leodensis (Jacques de Liège). As soon as the reference is published it should probably go back to that name. I'd suggest in the meantime renaming "Iacobus" to "Jacobus" since that's what everyone is using regardless of their position on this debate, since I and Js are just orthographic differences at the time. -- Michael Scott Asato Cuthbert (talk) 21:56, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Would agree with moving to Jacobus, per Grove esp. I actually put him in as Jacobus already when I included him in the List of medieval music theorists. Aza24 (talk) 22:11, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Still just waiting for the article to come out (it's in proofs). But definitely no one in musicology is calling him Jacobus de Ispania in new articles. -- Michael Scott Asato Cuthbert (talk) 20:43, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mscuthbert, I figured a move is worth it now, so I've just done so. Would Jacobus of Liège be preferable to Jacobus de Liège or Jacobus Leodensis?

Just to make sure I understand, originally he was called Jacobus of Liège but then an attribution suggested he was "Iacobus de Ispania" and Spanish. Then this discovery itself was pushed back on and it seems that in fact he is still "Jacobus of Liège", correct? Aza24 (talk) 22:08, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aza24: THANK YOU! First and most importantly TL;DL: "Jacobus of Liège" is a great name for the article (it's also what the New Grove was listed under) so let's leave it alone. The longer rest of the story (some of which should go into the Article itself). Early 20th c. and earlier: someone wrote a long treatise who at the end says something like "if you want to know who wrote this look at the first letters of the seven books" which spells Jacobus or Iacobus (anyone who insists on I vs J hasn't spent much time in medieval documents...). For a while people thought that this would be the same person as "Jean de Murs" but Jean=John and Jacobus=James, and they take diametrically opposed stances on a lot of musical things, so different people. The only thing we know for sure is that he's Jacobus; but in his book he talks a lot about the chanting in Liège (and Wallonia) so it was pretty good speculation that he'd be from there, so he was always Jacobus de Liège (which would probably have been Jacques de Liège in everyday speech). Then it's found that another treatise (the Berkeley Manuscript) mentions "Iacobus de Montibus" which could mean "from the mountains" or from "Mons" which is a bit far from Liège to be honest, but the same general part of Europe at least... Lots of wild speculation on who the person could be (should probably be in the article...) bringing us to the early 21st century. Margaret Bent finds an Italian reference (oh, yeah, all the surviving evidence about him is from Italy...) to a copy of the Speculum Musice saying that it was written be a certain "Jacobus de Ispania" (James of Spain). WHOA! That's totally different from anything we'd been looking for. Nothing even vaguely Spanish there, but that's what the name says -- lots of discussion that "hey, the 'of Liège' was always just speculation..." -- Bent agrees that there's not much Spanish in there, but there are some things that are compatible with England and proposes that a certain James of Spain in Oxford is a likely candidate. In 2016 Rob C. Wegman publishes his research on "de Ispania" showing that "Ispania" or "Hispania" was a common Latinization of "Hesbaye" which includes Liège, so yes his name is "de Ispania" but that should be read as "of Hesbaye/Liège/etc." -- the scholarly community breathes a sigh of relief. Then a bit later, Bonnie Blackburn finds a reference in an overlooked copy of another treatise to the work of "Jacobus Leodiensis" -- Jacobus of Liège. So now we definitely have the original name as a correct one. (I've been beating myself up that I didn't find this first, since I had worked on a different treatise in the same manuscript). That article is accepted, in proofs now (I've seen it; it's convincing), and will come out soon. -- Michael Scott Asato Cuthbert (talk) 19:40, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]