Talk:Ivan Sergeyevich Obolensky

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Death

The subject of this page recently died. I'm not sure if I'm capable of putting the obit into the article's references, so I'll put the URL here:
https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/nytimes/obituary.aspx?n=ivan-obolensky&pid=191409901
Published in The New York Times on Jan. 31, 2019
--2A02:908:4B12:6260:EC0E:B5A7:7BDC:7C6A (talk) 09:09, 1 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

titles

Philotam (talk · contribs · email) recently removed the word Prince in several places, with this summary: As an American citizen he cannot bear any title of nobility, except in the context of society events ! Which is a good point, but not exactly true. I believe that applicants for naturalization are required (or at least urged) to renounce any titles; but if Obolensky's mother was a US citizen, he was never naturalized. Several Americans have held hereditary titles, including Oliver Wallop, 8th Earl of Portsmouth, and the 8th through 11th Lords Fairfax of Cameron. —Tamfang (talk) 02:24, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Tamfang for your comment. You are absolutly right. But the British titles (Peerages, which share the responsibility of government, and not just titles of nobility) are titles of a still reigning monarchy and not courtesy titles without any legal significance (like those of the Russian Empire, a state having disappeared more than 100 years ago).

Best,

Philotam (talk) 04:13, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Prince should be added back, at least in the beginning of his name. It is not relevant that he was an American citizen, as several American citizens who were born Princes still hold the title and 'Prince' still appears in their Wikipedia pages (See Anthony Radziwiłł, Alexander von Fürstenberg). It is not a question to remove it or not based off if he is an American citizen, but if he holds the title 'Prince' in his own right, which he does. Eritrusia (talk) 14:58, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Portsmouth could not take his seat in the Lords until he took British citizenship. —Tamfang (talk) 00:35, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Philotam Please stop removing the 'Prince' title in his name. The reasoning why the title of Prince should remain in his name has been given. Your reasons for why it should be removed, that he is an American citizen who cannot hold titles of nobility is irrelevant. Yes, it is true that the United States' Constitution explicitly prohibits the federal government and individual states from granting titles of nobility to citizens and noble titles do not have any legal significance in the United States, however this is not relevant as Ivan is a Prince in his own right, and this is a Wikipedia page, where it is important to display as much relevant and correct information about a person as possible. Incidentally, there are other American citizens who bear the title of Prince, specifically the ones I linked above and still retain the title in their Wikipedia pages. Please do not change it again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eritrusia (talk • contribs) 17:58, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Eritrusia, Please stop reinsert the 'Prince' title in his name. Your use of this society title "Prince" is on the basis of this source: http://russiannobility.org/2019/01/29/passing-of-ivan-sergeievich-obolensky/ a source which is not neutral... the Russian nobility association of course uses the title 'Prince' to announce the death of one of its member. Even if this courtesy title is genuine, unlike a surname, it cannot stand the time if legally attached to a legally abolished regime (unlike the British titles).

Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(royalty_and_nobility)#Hypothetical,_dissolved_and_defunct_titles : Do not use hypothetical, dissolved or defunct titles, including pretenders (real or hypothetical), unless this is what the majority of reliable sources use. Philotam (talk) 02:19, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]