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Archive 5Archive 6Archive 7Archive 8

Talk:Pecorino_Sardo#Capitalisation

Hi, there is a very interesting discussion regarding the "pecorino sardo" page; some users argue that it is correct to write "sardo" of "pecorino sardo" with a capital letter (on en.wiki); if you want to participate, enter here: Talk:Pecorino_Sardo#Capitalisation (the English and the Americans (not all) think that "sardo" means "Sardinia", which explains why the English and the Americans write "Sardo" (with a capital "S"); the Italians laugh at these grammatical errors, because for us all it is normal to have a lowercase. The English and the Americans also think (not all) that "americano" of "ragazzo americano" (example) is written with a capital "A"; according to Italian grammar, it's heresy to make such an error). JackkBrown (talk) 00:09, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

When you want to guide people to a discussion, please link to it, as I have done here. – Jonesey95 (talk) 00:44, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

I would like to warn you (you in the plural) that if you see me inactive from now on, it is because until an agreement is reached on this problem, I will no longer contribute to "en.wiki", except for a few edits per week. JackkBrown (talk) 01:16, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

That sounds like a good choice for you. Inconsistency of italics appears to be causing you significant distress. Thank you for the ping, and for the above message. Grazie. – Jonesey95 (talk) 01:44, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Infobox official name

In English, the official name of Italy is Republic of Italy.[1]

Similar to Turkey situation, it should be changed accordingly.

Italian Republic shouldn't be on the lead, since there is another example Republic of Cyprus, while its Greek name is Cypriot Republic. So it should be something like Italy, officially the Republic of Italy (Italian: Repubblica Italiana, lit. 'Italian Republic'). Beshogur (talk) 20:21, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Anyone want to reply? Beshogur (talk) 20:22, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
Yup all there in lead and a redirect Republic of Italy. Moxy- 22:47, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
@Beshogur @Moxy Disagree. The Italian name in English ("Italian Republic") is used in official sources. 93.45.229.98 (talk) 19:12, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
Even in the CIA World Factbook the conventional long form is Italian Republic:
"conventional long form: Italian Republic"
"conventional short form: Italy"
https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/italy/ 93.45.229.98 (talk) 19:14, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
No, Italy changed its name. [2] See UN. Beshogur (talk) 19:56, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
The translated form is Italian Republic: the country didn't change its name. This is because such name is established constitutionally, and an action by the cabinet wouldn't be sufficient to alter that. To anyone familiar with the Italian legal system, it would appear absurd to have the Constitution superseded by an act of the cabinet.
An official sanction of the proposed name is non-existent. The exact same documents presented bring to the conclusion about their scope: namely, the adoption of the name as a reference to the country at the UN. This means in no way an official position for the name, exactly like "China" is not the translation of the official name of the country, despite being used at the UN.
The instrument of action is the definition itself of the nature of the text: a message destined to the UN, as a document for the UN. There is no law establishing that wrong name: such diplomatic correspondence has no legal enforcement, and is not source of law. This means the document is outside the legislative system of the country. This means it is a non-binding form of action by the cabinet.
It appears to me, that the proposed denomination stems from a good faith misunderstanding of the Italian legal system, probably caused by unfamiliarity with it by foreign editors. Greetings. Foghe (talk) 17:24, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
See the discussion at Turkey. The name registered in the UN is official. The parliaments are not busy with its countries' English names. Beshogur (talk) 08:50, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
Disagree, per Foghe and 93.45.229.98. The Italian Republic is correct and should be restored for the reasons previously stated. 109.180.140.175 (talk) 20:54, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
"Italian Republic" is a noun (if it is used), not an official name (in English) anymore. Similarly "Turkish Republic" is not the official name of Turkey. Beshogur (talk) 21:34, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
This is like talking to a brick wall. The article is about Italy, not Turkey. 109.180.140.175 (talk) 21:52, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
No it is same exact discussion regarding official names and the UN. Beshogur (talk) 09:41, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
According to this document, the French Republic should be the Republic of France. That does not make it correct or mean that we should change the Wikipedia article. The Official Names of the United Nations Membership is only one source. The constitution is more reliable. 109.180.140.175 (talk) 14:31, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
That's an interesting find, I wonder what the story is there. The most recent UNGEGN list (2017) (the same one Beshogur linked above) uses "French Republic (the)", as does the online version (25 April 2019). Both use "Republic of Italy", although the 2019 version includes "the" as a full part of the name. On the other hand, government websites do seem to use "Italian Republic" (eg. parliament website). This English language constitution, apparently provided by the Constitutional Court and now hosted on the Ministry of the Interior website has both ("CONSTITUTION OF THE ITALIAN REPUBLIC...The Constitution of the Republic of Italy..."). Perhaps an enterprising citizen/reporter could ask the government and/or constitutional court if there is an official stance on this, or if both are interchangeable. CMD (talk) 14:56, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
French Republic is the official name of France. That's not what I'm disputing. Regarding the consitution, you can also find Constituion of the Turkish Republic. That's what I mean. It's rather a noun. We should take what is admitted to the UN (that's the reason why I'm citing Turkey/Türkiye discussion. @Chipmunkdavis: Beshogur (talk) 15:13, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
Another prominent example is Lebanese Republic -> Republic of Lebanon. Beshogur (talk) 15:13, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
Why should we? Because you say so? This is meant to be a discussion and you do not have a consensus. 109.180.140.175 (talk) 15:23, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
So we should listen an IP with less than 10 edits. There is a consensus on official names regarding countries. Beshogur (talk) 16:10, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
Yes, that's how Wikipedia works (and I've been around a lot longer than you). 109.180.140.175 (talk) 16:59, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
So use your own account not some random ip. Beshogur (talk) 18:20, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
And there is a consensus on official names as I mentioned, Turkey/Türkiye discussion is a precedent. Beshogur (talk) 18:21, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Nothing there applies here. Meanwhile:

109.180.140.175 (talk) 19:05, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Seems like an old habit. However according to UN; Italian Republic, last entry 2011, Republic of Italy, last entry November 2023. I think we should add that Italian Republic is sometimes used in an official capacity; eg. Republic of Azerbaijan / Azerbaijan Republic. Beshogur (talk) 19:22, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
Nope, that is not acceptable. The weight of evidence is in favour of Italian Republic. 109.180.140.175 (talk) 19:26, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
That's not how it works. UN refers to as "Republic of Italy". Beshogur (talk) 19:39, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
No, that is exactly how it works. You do not have a consensus. 109.180.140.175 (talk) 19:42, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
You're repeating same arguments over and over. We discussed on Talk:Turkey several times regarding official names of the countries. There is another example like Republic of Côte d'Ivoire. It is what UN says, not what you favor. Beshogur (talk) 19:45, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
Can you point to where it says that? 109.180.140.175 (talk) 19:48, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
What exactly? Beshogur (talk) 19:52, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
That the UN is the only acceptable source. 109.180.140.175 (talk) 19:53, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
What do you mean? See whole Talk:Turkey/Archive_36#RfC_on_the_official_name_of_the_country_in_the_lede_(2) discussion. If that wasn't the case, Republic of Côte d'Ivoire was still Republic of Ivory Coast, Republic of Türkiye was still Republic of Turkey, Eswatini was still Swaziland. Another example International Organization for Standardization [3] uses also "Republic of Italy". Beshogur (talk) 19:58, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
That other stuff exists is not an argument. I am talking about policy. 109.180.140.175 (talk) 20:01, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
This is not other stuff. It's a precedent. Beshogur (talk) 20:03, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
Maybe we can open a rfc for this. See what other users think. Beshogur (talk) 20:03, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
No, it is other stuff and it does not apply here. You need to build a consensus, which you do not have. 109.180.140.175 (talk) 20:07, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
Fine, but in the meantime we can change it back to what it was. 109.180.140.175 (talk) 20:08, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
No I disagree. UN says "Republic of Italy". It should be about whether Italian Republic should be added as well. Beshogur (talk) 00:30, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
I’ll ask again, where does it say that the UN is the only acceptable source? 109.180.140.175 (talk) 00:59, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
Although inactive, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (countries) gives a good example: The ISO standards set by the International Organization for Standardization are widely accepted around the world. This standard is used by the United Nations. "Republic of Italy" is the ISO standard, "Italian Republic" is not. However, since you showed it's still in use, I added in bold. Beshogur (talk) 01:28, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (countries) referred to short form names so it is not relevant here. You need a consensus or to point to where it says that the UN is the only acceptable source. 109.180.140.175 (talk) 01:56, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
The UN is not the ultimate source here, outside of rare instances the names are from national governments which are conveyed to the UN. For example, on 1 June 2022 Turkey changed its name at the UN to Türkiye. The question this raises is why the Italian government has told the UN that its official name is Republic of Italy. CMD (talk) 02:42, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
We can only speculate on that. However, more recent examples above clearly demonstrate continued use of Italian Republic. It is also reproduced in the Italian passport. 109.180.140.175 (talk) 00:19, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
What kind of example is this? No one denis it's "Italian Republic" in Italian. "Republic of Cyprus" is also "Cypriot Republic" in Greek. Beshogur (talk) 15:43, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

The sources provided by IP 109 are overwhelming and confirm what I already believed: Italian Republic is preferable and more common than Republic of Italy. The official English translation of the Italian constitution, the text of the EU Treaties and the site of the Permanent Committee on Geographical Names for British official use are sufficient evidence to prove the point. Also on my Italian passport I read "Italian Republic". I have no idea why at UN level Republic of Italy is more common, but I guess it reflects some linguistic practice of Italian diplomacy rather than wider usage. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 01:49, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Even that translation of the constitution has "Every citizen shall be free to leave and enter the territory of the Republic of Italy, save for obligations set forth by law", and the version I linked above has it a few more times where "Italian Republic" is used in this one. There may be a lean, but certainly nothing here is "overwhelming". CMD (talk) 02:08, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
There is no consensus for change. 93.45.229.98, Foghe, Gitz and myself (four editors) have all made compelling cases against. Even you have conceded there is "a lean" (five?). Only Beshogur and Moxy (two) have expressed firm support.
You pick on one mention in the translation of the constitution published by the Constitutional Court of the Italian Republic, but remain silent on the Consolidated Texts of the EU Treaties as amended by the Treaty of Lisbon (2008), the Permanent Committee on Geographical Names for British official use (updated 26 October 2023) and the Italian passport (updated 27 September 2023). This is an error that does not appear in the translation published by the Senate of the Republic, which states: "Every citizen shall be free to leave the territory of the Republic and return to it, notwithstanding any legal obligations", an accurate translation of the Italian: Ogni cittadino è libero di uscire dal territorio della Repubblica e di rientrarvi, salvo gli obblighi di legge. 109.180.140.175 (talk) 12:50, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
Saying I "remain silent" is a strange assertion, everyone in the discussion has seen all the sources. So far we do not have a secondary one, and no source has said any one particular style is in error. CMD (talk) 13:20, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
Again, you pick on one small point, but ignore the thrust of my argument: There is no consensus and your example is a translation error. 109.180.140.175 (talk) 13:22, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
I am not clear what you mean by: "So far we do not have a secondary one". There are a number of secondary sources above. Can you please clarify. 109.180.140.175 (talk) 13:33, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
See UN and ISO standards. It uses "Republic of Italy", not "Italian Republic", however I agree that the latter is also used, like "Azerbaijan Republic" sometimes instead of "Republic of Azerbaijan". Beshogur (talk) 15:46, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
It has already been agreed that the UN is not the only acceptable source. 109.180.140.175 (talk) 15:49, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
You wrote the same thing 4 times. Agreed by whom? Beshogur (talk) 15:51, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
I should have said established, not agreed. You were unable to point to a policy and CMD stated: "The UN is not the ultimate source here". 109.180.140.175 (talk) 15:53, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
I have given other examples, especially "Republic of Italy" is an ISO standard. And you're still repeating the same things. This is getting disruptive on the talk page. Beshogur (talk) 15:55, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
And the fact is CMD is supporting my argument here (Turkey example). Beshogur (talk) 15:58, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
We have reliable primary sources on both sides of the argument, although I'd say that they are, if not overwhelmingly, at least largely in favour of "Italian Republic". Note that Books Ngram Viewer also shows that "Italian Republic" is more common. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:00, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
@Gitz6666: It's not about most common name. There wouldn't be "Republic of Türkiye" in Turkey then. It's about the official name, Ivory Coast, Turkey, Eswatini, etc. We discussed this common name issue hundreds of time in Talk:Turkey. It's exactly the same. See ISO standard. Beshogur (talk) 16:02, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
In case you missed. Italy, Turkey. Beshogur (talk) 16:04, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
THank you for the link. But the official name of the Italian Republic is in Italian: Repubblica italiana. Italy has no "official name" in English or in languages other than Italian, which is the only official language of the country. As Lockesdonkey said in a previous thread on the same topic, "We are not arguing about the official name of Italy; we are arguing about the preferred translation of the official name of Italy". I agree with them. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:09, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
Every country has an official name in English. I remember an user argued the same thing in Turkey discussions. Otherwise Turkey and Ivory Coast shouldn't have official names in foreign letters just because its governments enforced them. Another example is Republic of Cyprus, while Greek translation is Cypriot Republic, and Turkish, another official language used "Republic of Cyprus" again. So which one is correct? English one. Beshogur (talk) 16:12, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
By instruction of the Italian Government, the English name of the "Italian Republic" should be changed to "Republic of Italy". The French and Spanish version used at the United Nations remain unchanged.
Please be advised that Italy's official name is: Republic of Italy. --President of the Council of Ministers of the Republic of Italy Gabriella Biondi[4]
The question is, was this revoked? Beshogur (talk) 16:15, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
Also Lebanon example is another good one. "Lebanese Republic" is not in use anymore. However I don't deny "Italian Republic" is still used in official capacity. My argument is "Republic of Italy" is the sole registered name in the UN, thus that shall be used. Beshogur (talk) 16:06, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
But you cannot point to where it says that? 109.180.140.175 (talk) 16:09, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
The question is, was this revoked? actually the question is, who cares? The 2003 Italian government does not dictate how Wikipedia should call the country. If by "official (name)" you mean "used by public offices", then "Italian Republic" is very much official (it is found on the national passport, international treaties, official translations of the constitution, etc.). If by "official (name)" you mean "established by the law/the constitution", then Italy has no official name in English. We should rather look at the linguistic practices of English speakers. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:21, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
Every country has an official name in English. At least look at Cyprus example (differs from it's Greek name), Ivory Coast (uses non English letters), Eswatini (changed its name completely. Beshogur (talk) 16:30, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
The Ivory Coast article is still called Ivory Coast (eight requested moves have been unsuccessful) and Swaziland is mentioned in the Eswatini article lead. Cyprus has always been known as the Republic of Cyprus in English (Kıbrıs Cumhuriyeti in Turkish, one of its official languages). Compare Italian Republic and Republic of Cyprus in the Consolidated Texts of the EU Treaties as amended by the Treaty of Lisbon. However, this article is about Italy and nothing agreed elsewhere applies here. You need a consensus. 109.180.140.175 (talk) 16:58, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
why are we not simply adding both ? Moxy- 17:04, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
That would be a compromise (and the situation that existed before Beshogur started edit warring), but my preference would be for just the Italian Republic as was the case until last year. I think I have made the case why. 109.180.140.175 (talk) 17:09, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
Haha where is edit warring? Beshogur (talk) 17:57, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
Here, here and here (your only contributions to the article). 109.180.140.175 (talk) 18:06, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
You're labeling my first edit as edit warring? Beshogur (talk) 18:45, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
Fair point, but after you were reverted you should have taken it to the talk page. 109.180.140.175 (talk) 18:57, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
  • Ivory Coast, officially the Republic of Côte d'Ivoire
  • formally the Kingdom of Eswatini and also known by its former official name Swaziland
  • officially the Republic of Cyprus (Greek: Κυπριακή Δημοκρατία, romanized: Kypriakí Dimokratía, [cipriaˈci ðimokraˈti.a], lit: Cypriot Republic)
Don't distort them. Beshogur (talk) 17:04, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
We now seem to have — correct me if I am wrong — four editors for Italian Republic, two for both (one leaning towards Italian Republic) and one unequivocally for Republic of Italy. 109.180.140.175 (talk) 19:04, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
This isn't a polling. Please do not divert the topic. Beshogur (talk) 19:36, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
Moxy's proposal to include both Italian Republic and Republic of Italy in the opening sentence seems fair and simple to me. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 22:13, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
I think we should start by having both, given that borh are used in official contexts. Then we can debate if one of the two has to go and why.Barjimoa (talk) 22:43, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
Okay. I suggest: "Italy (Italian: Italia [iˈtaːlja]), officially the Italian Republic (Repubblica Italiana) or the Republic of Italy, is a country in Southern and Western Europe," with only Italian Republic in the infobox conventional_long_name field (as was the case before 19 October) as a compromise. 109.180.140.175 (talk) 22:47, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
@Gitz6666: sorry but these are randomly picked sources. Just because "Italian Republic" appears in the sentences, etc. doesn't make them sources. I don't get how Europol is a source here. Beshogur (talk) 16:23, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
@Gitz6666: @Barjimoa: thoughts on my last edit? Beshogur (talk) 15:43, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
@Beshogur I think that pending discussion we should go back to the status quo ante so I reverted your edit Special:Diff/1180942472, which apparently has no consensus. Please refrain from restoring. Let's first agree on a text. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:26, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
Oh that's your answer for all those evidence? I gave here dozens of examples of UN registered names being used here as official names, and yet you ignore this. Beshogur (talk) 16:29, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
here is the text of Italian constitution from the senate. The Constitution of the Republic of Italy in the following text. Yet the title is CONSTITUTION OF THE ITALIAN REPUBLIC. I don't deny Italian Republic is also used officially, but the "Republic of Italy" is UN registered, thus the primary name. Beshogur (talk) 16:32, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
Oh look what I found[5] a senator asks a question about this:
per i parlamentari italiani non esiste più, nella lingua inglese, la Repubblica italiana, sorprendentemente trasformata in “Repubblica d’Italia”;
(tr. for Italian parliamentarians, the Italian Republic no longer exists in the English language, surprisingly transformed into the "Republic of Italy";) Beshogur (talk) 16:42, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
Yes, and they then explain: "è la prima volta che avviene questo cambiamento che appare soltanto sui passaporti di servizio, mentre nei passaporti ordinari e diplomatici anche la traduzione in lingua inglese è rimasta la consueta e corretta traduzione letterale, cioè “Italian Republic”, così come per tutte le altre lingue che sono dall'interrogante conosciute" (deepl trans. this is the first time that this change has occurred, which appears only in service passports, whereas in ordinary and diplomatic passports, the English translation has remained the usual and correct literal translation, i.e. 'Italian Republic', as for all other languages known to the questioner) Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:45, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
@Beshogur, two points:
  1. You are engaged in an edit war. You don't have a consensus for the edit your are trying to force on this article. You have been reverted and yet you keep on restoring your preferred text. I strongly suggest you self-revert and start an RfC.
  2. I don't know if in the case of Turkey the alternative Turkish republic vs Republic of Türkiye has any political or cultural significance. In the case of Italy, the alternative Italian Republc vs Republic of Italy has none: it is not a relevant issue in either political or scholarly debates. However, if based on this source [6] you intend to force the official UN name on every single country on that list, e.g. "Republic of France" instead of "French Republic", than you are being disruptive (it's a time sink) and it's quite likely that you won't get what you want. Something being UN registered, thus the primary name is simply not convincing, and it's just your point of view.
Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:39, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
Wikipedia isn't always correct information. Just because it's on wikipedia for a long term doesn't mean it's correct. Kazakhstan's emblem was wrong for years, yet it's changed now. What's your comment on Italian government's request? Beshogur (talk) 16:45, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
  • Lets move this debate out of the lead and stick it in "Name" section....copy our FA article like Canada (deals with "Dominion" in body) as per WP:COUNTRYLEAD The etymology of a country's name, if worth noting, may be dealt with in the Etymology or History section. Naming disputes may also belong in the Etymology or History section. or like FA article Japan (were its covred all in a note and body).Moxy- 16:35, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
@Beshogur, There is no policy saying that we have to use the UN source. The consensus is in favour of Italian Republic. Please stop edit warring. 95.149.88.180 (talk) 16:37, 15 November 2023 (UTC) (previously 109.180.140.175)
Stop spamming on the talk page. You're more harming, than helping. Beshogur (talk) 16:47, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
Does Canada have a full name like Australia? Beshogur (talk) 16:48, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
No ...see Name of Canada. Moxy- 17:03, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
The problem with Moxy's suggestion is that, contrary to Canada re "dominion", (the English translation of) Italy's officil name, Repubblica italiana, has never been the object of debate or scholarly interest, and thus AFIK there are no reliable secondary sources on our issue "how should Repubblica italiana be translated into English?". Apparently in 2003 the Italian Goverment decided that the official translation at UN level should be "Republic of Italy". However, in the context of EU treaties, other international treaties, official translations of the Italian constitution, official documents such as passports, etc., "Italian Republic" is widespread and actually is more common. Besides, there are a few secondary sources such as the Library of congress [7], Europol [8] and the Britihs Committee on Geographical Names [9] stating that the official name is "the Italian Republic", so it's hard to know how much weight we should give to the UN sources [10][11], which are obviously primary sources. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 17:32, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
Please read my comments about Ivory Coast and Turkey. You will understand. Beshogur (talk) 17:34, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
@Gitz6666: Let me be more clear. Regarding "official names in English", there are several types of these:
Countries that use non-English letters:
  • Republic of Türkiye (Turkey)
  • Republic of Côte d'Ivoire (Ivory Coast)
Countries that have slightly different name in English:
  • Republic of Cyprus (Cypriot Republic in Greek)
  • Italy in this case, but you won't accept this.
Countries that changed their short nameby requesting UN:
  • Czechia (Czech Republic; still Czech Republic as long name)
  • Eswatini (Swaziland)
These are that came into my mind right now. And all of these, except of Italy is now considered official name in wikipedia. Beshogur (talk) 17:43, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
Also if there is a diplomatic relation between two countries, there is definitely an official name in that country's language. Eg. Rusya Federasyonu (Federation of Russia), while being incorrect translation, it's that way used in Turkish, and Russian MFA uses the same way [12] Beshogur (talk) 17:53, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
You are just repeating the same arguments over and over again. As advised above and at AN/I, if you wish to pursue this your next step is to open an RfC. 95.149.88.180 (talk) 18:02, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
  • I think Moxy makes a good point, we already have a section in the body where some info on the topic would fit. While we haven't found any secondary sources, something minimal and banal could be put together from select primary sources. CMD (talk) 02:40, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Anthem in the Infobox

Now in the infobox as well as in Il Canto degli Italiani we have this version of the national anthem

Isn't it a bit peculiar that we have a (purely instrumental, no words) version played by the U.S. Navy Band? I know it's only an essay, but WP:BIAS seems relevant to me. Besides, we have better quality versions of the anthem available on Commons:

  1. My favourite one. Historical registration of the Canto degli Italiani, 1961. Mario Del Monaco, Tenor, Orchestra RCA. It's a nice example of Italian Opera.
  2. The equivalent of what we already have (purely instrumental), of comparable, perhaps better quality, but played by the Italian Navy.
  3. Same as above by Riccardo Muti (director) and Orchestra Giovanile Luigi Cherubini.
  4. Long version (6 min) with words by Accademia Filarmonica Romana e Cappella Giulia di San Pietro.

My ranking is 1 (the best) then 4 and 2. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 00:23, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I personally think the Banda Musicale della Marina Militare version (2), which is the one in the infobox of Il Canto degli Italiani, is a more typical rendition. I spot checked 10 other country articles, which all had instrumental versions (with the lyrics in subtitles). The shorter Mario Del Monaco (1) and full Coro dell'Accademia Filarmonica Romana e Cappella Giulia di San Pietro (4) vocal versions are included further down in the Lyrics section of Il Canto degli Italiani. 95.149.88.180 (talk) 16:08, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
You are right on all counts, and perhaps that is a good reason for leaving things unchanged. The Marina Militare version (2) doesn't have the lyrics in the subtitles, so if the standard generally followed on other pages is to have a short purely instrumental version, then it's better to keep the US Navy version after all. It's a pity though, because I find the Del Monaco version (1) much less martial/militaristic and more melodic and interesting from a historical point of view (opera in Italy was a driver of national unification). Gitz (talk) (contribs) 17:14, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
I've now added English subtitles to the Italian, so there's no reason not to go ahead. 95.149.88.180 (talk) 01:45, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
that's great! Thanks. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 09:02, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

"Good article" template

This page is really very well done and complete (perhaps some small details are missing). I propose the addition of the "Good article" template. JackkBrown (talk) 00:44, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

I'd suggest having a look at the instructions for nominating. At this point this article needs improvement to meet the criteria, but it's a good goal in the longer term. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:47, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Add Roman Empire in ,,Formation"

hello The Roman Empire should still be under formation. In the Wikipedia page from Algeria https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algeria it says "Roman Empire" under formation... then it should definitely be in Italy. Or what do you think? Izmir18 (talk) 04:20, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

It ought to be removed from Algeria. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:23, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
And add in the italy formation? Izmir18 (talk) 04:54, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
No, just removed. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:05, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Okey. :) Izmir18 (talk) 05:36, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Official languages

Hi, I'm here to indicate a misiniformation in the first note of the infobox, saying: " German is co-official in South Tyrol and Friuli-Venezia Giulia; French is co-official in the Aosta Valley; Slovene is co-official in the province of Trieste, the province of Gorizia, and Friuli-Venezia Giulia; Ladin is co-official in South Tyrol, in Trentino and in other northern areas; Friulian is co-official in Friuli-Venezia Giulia; Sardinian is co-official in Sardinia." However, these are not official languages: they're just protected at a local level. Memnone di Rodi (talk) 08:32, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Many wikilinks were removed without motivating the changes: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1195144873, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1195160919 (by User:Lindsey40186); https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1195243587 (by User:Duckmather). I'm afraid they were removed randomly. JackkBrown (talk) 00:07, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

The edit summaries cited MOS:OVERLINK - that would be the motivation for the changes. Are there specific links that are concerning you? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:32, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
@Nikkimaria: no, but wikilinks should be removed judiciously, reasoning very well about which ones to keep and which ones not, and not removing them at random just to comply with the MOS. Maybe these two users have reasoned very well, but I'm not at all sure. JackkBrown (talk) 00:42, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
@JackkBrown mine were not randomly. Most of my removals were multiple of the same link. Milan, Rome, Italian diaspora, Catholic Church, and Venice (to name just a few) we're all linked multiple times, sometimes within the same paragraph. MOS:OVERLINK suggests that this is generally not appropriate, save for a (very) few instances.
The genesis of cleaning up the overlooking, for me at least, was a request in WP:GOCE and a confirmation at the top of the article. Lindsey40186 (talk) 01:20, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
@Lindsey40186: waiting for the other user's response, thank you for your contribution. JackkBrown (talk) 09:12, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
@JackkBrown: I personally mostly removed links to very common words (eg "Europe"), since I figured people wouldn't really need them anyways. Duckmather (talk) 19:13, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Lowercase

In this article it would be excellent to check "north Italy", "northern Italy", "south Italy", "southern Italy" and "central Italy", the first word must be written with a lowercase initial letter (as it's written here); I have already corrected many of them. JackkBrown (talk) 01:42, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Article too big

I see tag removed again. We will be by this page in a few weeks. Moxy- 22:23, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

At 140kB, the entire page is grossly overlength. Splits need considering. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:51, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
Absolutely not 2A00:23C8:8996:5101:38BB:BA3E:C7BB:4B3B (talk) 12:35, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
ignore comment 2A00:23C8:8996:5101:38BB:BA3E:C7BB:4B3B (talk) 12:36, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
Ok 2600:6C4C:687F:9AAE:18B1:C275:281B:1B26 (talk) 22:52, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Also consider the length (definitely excessive, given the subject matter) of the United States page. JackkBrown (talk) 00:19, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

JackkBrown, the readable prose size of that article is less than half of this one. (But either way, if you'd like to propose changes to that article, it should be discussed at that article's talk page). Nikkimaria (talk) 04:52, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Copy editing with good intentions

@User:Denisarona, Please donot revert the edits. The edits are being done with good objectives for improvement. Thankyou Learnerktm (talk) 14:40, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

The edits sufficiently may not significantly improve, but the minor grammatical errors have been edited with best of the knowledge. Learnerktm (talk) 14:43, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

@Learnerktm. I understand what you are saying, but the article states that British English is to be used and some of your changes removed British English. Regards Denisarona (talk) 14:44, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

I will remember that. I will change text into British English wherever I see, thankyou. Learnerktm (talk) 14:57, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 March 2024

The Pelagie islands are listed as exclaves of Italy, but that is not correct according to the definition. Islands whether belonging to another continent or not are not exclaves. But even if we really went by that definition, not all Pelagie islands don't belong to Italy geographically/orographically speaking. Linosa does belong. Only Lampedusa and Lampione are doubtful.

The situation is not comparable to Spain's one that has Canary Islands thousands of kilometres ways. Or the ones in front of Northern Moroccan coast 78.208.29.116 (talk) 13:56, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Shadow311 (talk) 15:15, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Italy is a regional state.

Italy is a regional state not an unitary state. The regions have political power of making laws concerning the subjects defined by the constitution. Art 117 Italian constitution. So the the government form Must change to regional parlamantelary Republic. Conforx (talk) 11:13, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Do you have a source supporting this change? Nikkimaria (talk) 11:49, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
The Italian constitution. Conforx (talk) 16:49, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
https://www.governo.it/en/node/28 there isn't a stronger source then this one. Conforx (talk) 16:53, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
https://www.governo.it/it/costituzione-italiana/parte-seconda-ordinamento-della-repubblica/titolo-v-le-regionile-province-e-i#:~:text=la%20Regione%20interessata.-,Art.,comunitario%20e%20dagli%20obblighi%20internazionali the previous one does not work. Conforx (talk) 16:54, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 April 2024

Add Italy’s minorities to demographics section.

Source: https://minorityrights.org/country/italy/ 174.243.152.88 (talk) 17:53, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 19:39, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Insane amount of text please remove and add subheadings.

Janae amount fo text. 64.189.18.37 (talk) 18:10, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't agree. The amount of subheadings and their titles aren't unusual for a country article. 216.208.98.34 (talk) 17:32, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Italy population 1 March 2024

Population change at the end of February 2024 (1 March 2024): 58.971.638; source: https://demo.istat.it/app/?i=D7B&a=2024&l=en

Please change it. EdgarsKiecis (talk) 05:47, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 June 2024

change "Italy shares its borders with France, Switzerland, Austria, Slovenia and two enclaves: Vatican City and San Marino." to "Italy shares its borders with France, Switzerland, Austria, Slovenia, Vatican City and San Marino." or "Italy shares its borders with France, Switzerland, Austria, Slovenia and two micronations: Vatican City and San Marino." 93.46.99.50 (talk) 11:23, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: 'Enclaves' is more descriptive, as Italy completely surrounds the two countries. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk • contribs) 11:29, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

GDP

Greetings, everyone. The article says that Italy has the eighth-largest nominal GDP in the world, but, according to the International Monetary Fund, the county is in ninth position, which we can see here: World Economic Outlook database: April 2024. Can someone correct that information?--Agent010 (talk) 12:36, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Administrative Divisions

Looking at the source, there is an editor comment at the Administrative Divisions section that says not to change the anchor tag. As it stands, however, the section header is "={{Anchor". Shouldn't this be fixed? Why shouldn't it be changed? TurkeyCookTime (talk) 18:50, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

I fixed it.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:57, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Italy population 30 April 2024

Italy population (30 April 2024 official estimate): 58,968,501 Source: ISTAT Instituto Nazionale di Statistica: https://demo.istat.it/app/?l=en&a=2024&i=D7B

Subsequent population density: 195.7/km2

The article misleadingly states its' 2022 estimate at 58,853,482 and the population density is at 201.3/km2 EdgarsKiecis (talk) 05:21, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Italy population 30 April 2024

Italy population (30 April 2024 official estimate): 58,968,501 Source: ISTAT Instituto Nazionale di Statistica: https://demo.istat.it/app/?l=en&a=2024&i=D7B

Subsequent population density: 195.7/km2

The article misleadingly on the right side states its' 2022 estimate at 58,853,482 and the population density is at 201.3/km2 EdgarsKiecis (talk) 06:39, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done Goldsztajn (talk) 08:11, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 June 2024

Please change "12 Jun 1946" to "10 Jun 1946" as the date on which the Italian Republic came into being. This was the date on which the Court of Cessation confirmed the results of the institutional referendum. RomeoJA (talk) 20:02, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Charliehdb (talk) 13:25, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
Results of the institutional referendum were announced on 10 Jun 1946; see Gazzetta Ufficiale, 20 Jun 1946:
https://www.gazzettaufficiale.it/do/gazzetta/downloadPdf?dataPubblicazioneGazzetta=19460620&numeroGazzetta=134&tipoSerie=FO&tipoSupplemento=GU&numeroSupplemento=0&estensione=pdf&edizione=90
The following day, 11 Jun 1946, was proclaimed a public holiday:
https://www.gazzettaufficiale.it/atto/serie_generale/caricaDettaglioAtto/originario?atto.dataPubblicazioneGazzetta=1946-06-20&atto.codiceRedazionale=046U0002 RomeoJA (talk) 14:07, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
 Not done for now: It doesn't seem quite so clear cut. From what I've looked at, the Court made a preliminary announcement on the 10th, but wasn't affirmed by the Cabinet until the 12th. FULL RULE OF ITALY GIVEN TO PREMIER - HUMBERT SNUBBED – macaddct1984 (talk | contribs) 01:28, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 August 2024

Link the word "Europe" in the first sentence to the Europe continent page. Thank you! Cocane mitch (talk) 02:48, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: per MOS:OVERLINK. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk • contribs) 13:10, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
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