Talk:Italian Argentines

Rioplatense Spanish

Antonino Rocca should be added to the list of notable Italian Argentines. Rocca was one of the most popular professional wrestlers of the 1950's and 1960's and was a hero to both Latinos and Italians in the northeast when I was growing up. As an Italian American immigrant we needed heros and Rocca and Bruno Sammartino were heroes to the Italians. It was known that Rocca was Italian blooded but he was also a big hero to Latinos in that era.

My mother is Argentinian of Italian descent, her Spanish does not even sound like she is speaking Italian. This is an overexaggeration claiming that Rioplatense Spanish can be confused to speaking Italian. Yes, Rioplatense Spanish has Italianisms, but many people claim that Rioplantense Spanish is one of the most clearest Spanish dialects, and foreigners rarely have any problems understanding Argentines. That is why I removed that statement because it is a clear overexaggeration. Lehoiberri (talk) 16:50, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I agree that the intonation is very Italian sounding, especially when compared to other forms of Spanish. I don't think it matters if one is of Italian descent or not- it is common to Argentine Spanish. I also think most Argentines might not be aware of this slight difference. Maybe its only Italian speakers that can sense this? This comes from my own first hand observations when, on a visit to Argentina a few years ago, I crossed the border from Chile: I suddenly felt as if everyone was speaking Italian. Dionix (talk) 18:08, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I have been to Argentina myself and, to me, the Spanish there does not sound "Italian". The only difference I noticed is the pronunciation of the "ll", which is quite different from the way people speak it in Spain and in the rest of Latin America. The rest, they speak the same way other Latin Americans.

Moreover, the Italian immigrants did not speak "Italian", but different dialects. So, it is impossible to have influence from the Italian language in Argentina. The influences would come from some Italian dialects, which have nothing to do with nowadays Italian. The dialects are very, very different from Italian; by the way, they are not actually "dialects", but languages, with different pronunciations from the Standard Italian. Opinoso (talk) 02:32, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

By the way, "Rioplatense Spanish", the one people say was influenced by Italian, is spoken in the region of Buenos Aires. Dionix sayed when he crossed the border of Chile with Argentina he thought their Spanish sounded Italian, but it is impossible, because the Spanish spoken in the border of Argentina with Chile is not Rio Platense Spanish;

Rio Platense Spanish is spoken around Buenos Aires, which is far away from the border with Chile.

Dionix, you probably saw Italian tourists and though they were speaking Spanish. lol Opinoso (talk) 02:40, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Opinoso, you are correct in that my first point of entry was in Mendoza province, but I did make my way to BA and beyond. To me, I did not notice a great variation anyways. And that's funny, but no they were not Italian tourists. I think maybe only Italian speakers notice this??- I don't know enough about linguistics to describe it other than it sounded Italian, more specifically southern/ central Italian intonation (It doesn't matter that people spoke dialects- the intonation and cadence is more or less the same from central Italy to northern Calabria, and changes a bit as you move towards Sicily. People from these regions maintain the same attributes when they speak standard Italian). Also, I know of some Argentines who stated they were often taken for Italians when travelling in Spain. Any Italians care to add to this?- And what do others think? Dionix (talk) 04:23, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Numbers

The math doesn't add up in the intro: 20-25m Argentines with some Italian ancestry is something like 55%, not 70%. Dionix (talk) 00:09, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Based on the 2007 population estimate of 40,301,927, that would actually be 50 to 62%. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dionix (talk • contribs) 00:12, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I changed it to >50%. Also I removed all the extra stuff about Lunfardo. No need to go into detail here- save that for the main article, especially since not all words are of Italian provenance.Dionix (talk) 03:18, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Dionix why did you delete vital information in the lunfardo part? I oppose to remove it, extra information is always good in articles.

--Fercho85 (talk) 05:52, 27 April 2008 (UTC)--

OK, you can leave it in if you wish- but it really repeats all of the info already in the main article and seems a bit overboard for this article. I added back the correction to the % and regions, which you inadvertedly deleted with your last revert.Dionix (talk) 20:18, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

25 m?

Where are the sources in this article that prove there are 25 millions of Italian Argentines? In Italians, it's said the Argentines of Italian descent are about 20 m. And this article has references. Do you really think Brazil would be considered to have the most populous people of Italian background outside Italy, if Argentina'd have the same number? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.58.126.40 (talk) 00:37, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Brazil does not have more Italians than Argentina. The AIRE (Anagrafe of Italians Living Abroad) states that Argentina is the country with most Italians, followed by Germany and Switzerland. Brazilians often christenize their sons with Italian names -no matter if it's the mother who carries the surname, because they want to Europenize their country and erase the Portuguese inheritance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2800:810:446:6D3:717B:FA39:8F40:5B3D (talk) 02:09, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Please: Works by Maria Vittoria Calvi leading expert on Spanish-Italian similarities and differences and teaching

I think there should be a link to the work of Maria Vittoria Calvi the world's leading expert on Spanish-Italian similarities and differences (and language pedagogy) somewhere on Wikipedia. Maybe there should even be a Wikipedia page (at least a stub) on her (I do not know how to set up a page myself however). This is because there are quite a few people who know Italian and would like to learn to speak good Spanish (by way of Italian, not by way of English or other languages) and quite a few people who would like to learn Italian who already know Spanish. I myself am half Italian and I learned Spanish in this way (i.e. with a lot of help from my knowlege of Italian). Very few books have been written about this topic. The research by Maria Vittoria Calvi and books written by her in this area is excellent and would be of interest to a lot of people.

Should link to her website. A lot of her works are also on various places on the internet as PDF's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.93.5.244 (talk) 01:38, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Simple mathematical

Argentina's population is bigger than 40 million people, 20 million people are just 50% of the total population, 60% is 24 million, and it's known that almost 25 million people in Argentina have at least one Italian ancestor (62% of the total population), can someone please properly edit this article? --Samhain-35 (talk) 02:05, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Numbers and references

so the only working reference says that 25 million argentines have at least a drop of italian blood, so im changing the article and deleting the ref — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.22.244.244 (talk) 18:01, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

this is the ref i deleted: http://www.italofonia.org/  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chueco23456 (talk • contribs) 18:09, 16 February 2016 (UTC) 

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On the claim that Italian Argentinians represent the biggest ethnic composite of the modern population of Argentina.

This section is being created as a result of several reversions to an edit on the introduction to the article mentioning that the Italian composite of Argentina, although important, hasn't replaced the original per-independence ethnic composition of Argentina.

The main reference provided to support this correction is this one. Here an extensive list of the most common last-names in Argentina provides insight into how, despite all the recent European Inmigration, the most common last names are all Spanish and predate the formation of the Republic of Argentina. Given that this is reference is being dismissed as "not making an sense" I will provide additional references, illustrating the irrevocable supremacy of Iberian composite of Argentinean genetics.

As demonstrated in here, the ethnic estimates for the Argentinean population by the end of the S.XVIII where roughly 150.000 Criollos of purely Spanish descent and a population 20 times bigger of roughly 3.000.000 Argentinians of mestizo descent with important indigenous and African genetic composites.

As demonstrated on several genetic studies done on the last 3 decades, this genetic composite was never replaced by subsequent migratory movements into Argentina:

In 2005, the Servicio de Huellas Digitales Genéticas of the Universidad de Buenos Aires concluded an investigation directed by the Argentinean geneticist Daniel Corach. The study was done over genetic markers in a sample of 320  male subjects, taken at random of a group of 12 000 individuals from 9 provinces.

The investigation concluded that:

Más del cincuenta por ciento de las muestras exhiben haplogrupos mitocondriales característicos de las poblaciones originarias, 52 % en la muestra de la región centro, 56 % en la muestra del sur-suroeste y 66 % en la región nor-noreste. Por otro lado, el 20 % exhibe la variante “T” característica de las poblaciones originarias en el locus DYS199. La detección de ambos linajes originarios, tanto por vía paterna como por vía materna se restringe a un 10 %. El componente poblacional que no presenta contribución amerindia alguna en la región del centro es de 43 %, en la región Sur-SurOeste es de 37 % y en la región Nor-NorEste de 27 %. En promedio, menos del 40 % (36,4 %) de la población exhibe ambos linajes no amerindios; pudiendo ser europeo, asiático o africano.

Over the implications of the study, the publishers stated that:

La información aquí resumida se basa en observaciones científicas que permiten redefinir la pretendida creencia del origen europeo de todos los habitantes del territorio argentino. De acuerdo con nuestros resultados y otros muchos, generados por diferentes grupos de investigación de nuestro país, podemos confirmar una sustancial contribución genética de las poblaciones originarias de América a la constitución actual de la población argentina. Este tipo de investigaciones tienden a contribuir a la caracterización de la identidad de nuestro país en forma respetuosa y antidiscriminatoria.

After this study, several others where made, all of which conluded in similar observations regarding to the genetic composite of the Argentinean population. Such studies include (Avena et al., 2006), (Seldin et al., 2006) and (Oliveira, 2008), among others.

Other studies realized with special focus on the specific genetic markers of the autosomal and haplogroup data of Argentinians provide further insight into the prevalence of the pre-inmigration composite. (Catelli et al., 2009) demonstrates that the main mtDNA haplogroup of Argentinians is the Haplogroup H, which is quite common on the Iberian Peninsula, but aside from the H5 sub-clade which is common in Italy (and is not over-represented in the study)is uncommon on the Italian Peninsula.

(Seldin et al., 2006) demonstrates the high amount of correlation between argentinian and mexican samples (the mexican samples being generally a simple composite of iberian and native american haplotypes).

Lastly, (Ramallo et al., 2009) places the R1b strand of the R Y-DNA as the most common Y-DNA haplogroup of the Argentinean composition, again, this haplogroup has an incidence of over 80% in the male Iberian population, but just over 30% on the Italian population.

Given that this information is of questionable relevance to an article describing the Italian contributions to the Argentinean ethnic composition, I wont include them as sources to reference my addition to the article, but leaving misinformation such as t the statement that the Italian composite has overridden the pre-inmigration composite of the Argentinian population cannot be allowed. Either my contribution remains, or the section (not backed by references, should I add) as dissapears a whole.

References

The list of most common last names is not relevant.

The fact that the top 100 most common last names in Argentina are Spanish, does not imply that there are more people of Spanish descent. Most Spaniards have patronimic last names, whereas Italians are predominantely of toponymic surnames. There are a few patrominic names (Gonzalez, Fernández, Martínez, etc.) and that explains why people use a combination of two of them in Spain. Toponymic surnames, on the other hand, are more varied, because they refer to places, not names. We all have heard the surnames Ginobili, Campazzo, Scola, Nocioni, Laprovittola, Messi, Batistuta, Cavenaghi, Lavezzi, Abbondanzieri, Simeone, Zanetti, Biglia, Ruggeri, Romagnoli, Tarantini, Brindisi, Labruna, Bilardo, Menotti, Scaloni, Bergoglio, Macri, Milei, Alfonsin, Balbin, Belgrano, ... Do we know another Ginobili, or another Messi other than the famous one? Given that Italian surnames are mostly toponymic, it's impossible that they displace Spanish names from the most popular; but that doesn't mean that there are fewer people portraying Italian surnames. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2800:810:446:6D3:717B:FA39:8F40:5B3D (talk) 02:30, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Italian Argentines and references

What I am referring to is about the reference used to justify your contribution, it is an article extracted from the newspaper "Los andes" based on a ranking of the most common surnames, do you really believe that this is a good reference to justify your contribution? the references should be extracted from good sources, from specific books where they talk about the Italian Immigration, for example, do you understand now?. This article is about Italian immigration, its history and contributions to culture in Argentina, not about Spaniards or Criollos, if you want to talk about this issue in particular then you should do it in the article on Spanish immigration in Argentina. With respect to the article about genetic study made by Corach, this topic was already explained in other articles related to immigration in Argentina.

Sources? here: http://www.culturaargentina.org.ar/archivos/COLECTIVIDADES/Italiana.pdf

Page where it talks about the % of Italian: PAGE N° 3.

CITATION: "Actualmente, gracias a la a política de apertura que tiene el gobierno italiano, en el reconocimiento de ciudadanías, entre nativos y descendientes con doble ciudadanía hay 700.000 italianos y se calcula que el 47% de la población argentina tiene en sus venas sangre italiana".

Another one: https://www.argentina-excepcion.com/es/guia-viaje/nacionalidades/italianos

Leonina666444 (talk) 08:05, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

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I find myself agreeing with your position to an extent, it is true that while the last-name list heavily implies the supremacy of spanish heritage in Argentina, it doesn't mention that conclusion specifically. I agree that it's not the most proper way to reference such statement, I used it solely in an attempt to standardize this article to a multi-language framework where this cite is used, its currently present on the article in spanish. However I do believe that based on that reference my addition to the article has more substance than the lack of references on the mention that Italians represent the biggest ethnic composite of the Argentinians.

Sadly, currently in the way that introduction is written its providing misinformation, given that it textually mentions unsupported conclusions which contradict the extensive genetic and historic records used to analyze the Argentinian population.

The population census of 1868 registered a population of 1 877 490 inhabitants of mainly mestizo and criollo heritage. From 1859 until 1923 6 611 000 immigrants entered the country, 44.9% of these where italians and 33.5% where spaniards, doing some rough projections we can estimate the number of Italian immigrants to be 2 968 339, while the number of Spanish (without taking into account the huge amount of other latin americans who entered Argentina during this time) immigrants to be 2 214 685, mainly from Galicia but also other parts of Spain. Even if we consider the the original population to not be purely spanish; we still have over 4 million hispanics present in the Argentinean population at the peak of the migratory movements. These estimates are supported both by the historic accounts as well as the genetic data that I cited previously on my first Talk entry. It's simply not true that the Italian segment of the Argentine ethnic composition possesses primacy over that of the Iberian composite.

Indeed a huge segment of the Argentinean population has partial Italian roots (this does NOT mean however that 47% of the Argentinian genome is Italian, since it measures both full and partial descent) , but roughly 90% of the Argentinean population has ties to Iberia in some way or another.

I propose that either the claim that the Italian composite being the primary is removed, or that we establish a more indept explanation of how the migratory movements interacted with previous population.

You are right, this is not an article about Criollos or Spaniards, this is an article about Italian immigration, and as such I would love to keep the focus of the article as centered as possible, but we cannot allow for misinformation to be distributed through our platform.

I will once again reformat the introduction to dismiss any room for misinformation, and I will provide better sources if necessary, please come back to this comment section in order to discuss further procedure, do not just reverse the edits.

Anonymous 05:33, 18 January 2018 (UTC)