Talk:Israeli–Palestinian conflict

This page is subject to the extended confirmed restriction related to the Arab-Israeli conflict.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 November 2024

Two closing braces need removed from the start of the article.

}} The Israeli–Palestinian conflict

Had a look and cannot see where existing opening braces would be. Lyeuhm (talk) 20:35, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Already done... - Adolphus79 (talk) 04:59, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Summary proposal

Proposal to summarize fourth lede paragraph:

From:

The international community, with the exception of the US and Israel, has been in consensus since the 1980s regarding a settlement of the conflict on the basis of a two-state solution along the 1967 borders and a just resolution for Palestinian refugees. The US and Israel have instead preferred bilateral negotiations rather than resolving the conflict on the basis of international law. In recent years, public support for a two-state solution has decreased, with Israeli policy reflecting an interest in maintaining the occupation rather than seeking a permanent resolution to the conflict. In 2007, Israel tightened its blockade of the Gaza Strip and made official its policy of isolating it from the West Bank. Since then, Israel has framed its relationship with Gaza in terms of the laws of war rather than in terms of its status as an occupying power. In a July 2024 ruling, the International Court of Justice rebuffed Israel's stance, determining that the Palestinian territories constitute one political unit and that Israel continues to illegally occupy the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The ICJ also determined that Israeli policies violate the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination. Since 2008, the Gaza has been ruled by Hamas with whom and Israel have fought five wars, the most recent of which began in 2023 and is ongoing.

To:

The international community, with the exception of the US and Israel, has been in consensus since the 1980s regarding a settlement of the conflict on the basis of a two-state solution along the 1967 borders and a just resolution for Palestinian refugees. In recent years, public support among both Israelis and Palestinians for a two-state solution has dwindled. Since 2007, an Israel-Gaza conflict arose, of which five wars, including the ongoing one, have taken place between Israel and Hamas which became to rule Gaza. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict continues to have significant regional and international repercussions and is considered to be one of the longest-running conflicts in the modern period.

(changed/added sentences underlined). Makeandtoss (talk) 12:19, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't like ICJ rulings being taken out. What do the sources say? Bogazicili (talk) 18:37, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

No. What is the motivation for shortening this paragraph? DMH223344 (talk) 23:10, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Simple Wikipedia page

There's a simple version of this page here: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_conflict I've updated it with significant help from the sources here. Hopefully it doesn't get reverted to the stub it was! Lewisguile (talk) 00:01, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your work there, it looks like it took a lot of effort. I'll go through it soon. On first glance I would say the section on mandatory palestine isnt very accurate or consistent with the mainstream narrative. British support for the zionist project was embedded in the text of the mandate for palestine. DMH223344 (talk) 07:57, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, @DMH223344. I mainly added material about after that, as there was already info about Mandatory Palestine there. Please do update as appropriate. I notice one of the existing users has tagged some of it as dubious, which is material that was recently discussed at great length here, so there's always a risk with Simple Wikipedia pages of them becoming POV forks. Lewisguile (talk) 20:01, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Zionism in lead

@إيان, I think they way Zionism has been expanded on in the lead makes that sentence more difficult to read. Of course Zionism is a critical part of the conflict, but the aspects that are most relevant to the conflict are specifically regarding zionism's relationship with palestinians and palestine. I'm reverting for now and will try to find a better way to represent zionism here. DMH223344 (talk) 18:58, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

went with state instead of homeland إيان (talk) 16:48, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

The current lead of Zionism mentions both but in particular the sentence "Zionists wanted to create a Jewish state in Palestine with as much land, as many Jews, and as few Palestinian Arabs as possible" is well sourced and has consensus, subject of a current RFC likely to ratify that consensus. Selfstudier (talk) 17:55, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Even that is not clear enough, see my comment below. The creation of a "Jewish state" by itself was not necessarily the cause of the conflict. It was instead a result of the whole Zionist project, which entailed the dispossession of the Palestinians (politically and physically). DMH223344 (talk) 19:45, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Recent revert

@BePrepared1907 please explain why this edit is "POV": https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict&curid=46216&diff=1262202639&oldid=1262196616 This sentence explains the basis on which zionists and palestinians were in conflict with the arrival of zionists to Palestine. DMH223344 (talk) 04:31, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

The main problem in my opinion is that it is too long for the lede, better to integrate it. Makeandtoss (talk) 07:14, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

How is it too long? It's a single sentence. It explains what about Zionism specifically led to a conflict. DMH223344 (talk) 17:29, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

@DMH223344: They removed another big piece today. They mostly remove content and never discuss it. I.M.B. (talk) 19:55, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

This is certainly not an improvement. You can't take one quote from one book and add it to the lede in wikivoice. The lede is supposed to reflect all RS and this is a rather extreme take. Even Khalidi is better. Alaexis_¿question? 07:57, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

It's a factual statement and briefly summarizes the conflict between zionism and the palestinians. DMH223344 (talk) 03:10, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

It is much too POV and WP:UNDUE for a single quote. Keeping it as simple as "establish a homeland" is better. — Czello ^(music) 10:43, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

No, it is not POV and definitely not UNDUE. The basic idea behind Zionism is the establishment of a demographically Jewish state. The mainstream narrative is that this was done through "colonization". The conflict induced by the establishment of a Jewish state was that it dispossessed Palestinians politically (and physically). (see Morris for example: The Zionists were intent on politically, or even physically, dispossessing and supplanting the Arabs)

Shafir puts it this all together quite succinctly. His quote directly supports the addition:

The goal of Zionism was to colonize Palestine and establish homogeneous Jewish settlements while suppressing Palestinian national aspirations.

DMH223344 (talk) 19:43, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

The 1940-1947 history section needs revision

The 1940-1947 history section of this article does not appear to meet the standard of quality of the rest of the article; there are multiple misspellings and much unsourced information in this section.

For example:

"With the eruption of World War II, the conflict beween jews am palestinan arabs in Mandatory Palestine calmed down. It allowed a shift towards a more moderate stance among Palestinian Arabs under the leadership of the Nashashibi clan and even the establishment of the Jewish–Arab Palestine Regiment under British command, fighting Germans in North Africa" (unsourced information with multiple grammar errors and a spelling error).

"But extreme jewish groups, started from 1940 to do actual military-style operations against the British, with the aim of persuading Great Britain to accept the formation of a Jewish state" (unsourced information with multiple grammar errors).

"The former grand mufti of Palestina Haj Amin al-Husseini escaped from Palestine to Irak in 1937, then to Italy and then, from 1941, to Nazi Germany. There he participated in th pro-Nazi propaganda machine throughout the Arab world" (unsourced information with multiple spelling and grammar errors).

The information in this section should be reverted back to its state on January 1st, or, at the very least, the improper grammar and spellings in this section should be revised and the unsourced information should be given citation needed tags. LiveLaughLotad (talk) 00:11, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

This issue was resolved by the user Firecat93. No further edits are needed. LiveLaughLotad (talk) 03:09, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Feel free to share any other concerns Firecat93 (talk) 08:41, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Reverts

A couple recent reverts showed up a problem in the page in the sense that we have a "History" section that is a selective list of things rather than a high level summary such as that at History of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, seems we need a better balance between these two articles rather than the duplication we have between them as at present. This page should primarily reflect the current state of the conflict. Selfstudier (talk) 16:21, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Sections sizes widget at the top confirms that the history section is still a monster despite being split. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:37, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Think I would still be looking for a more high level summary of the History, despite the trimming. Leaving any kind of detail there just encourages.... Selfstudier (talk) 14:18, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 January 2025

I would like to change °The conflict has its origins in the rise of Zionism in the late 19th century in Europe, a movement which aimed to establish a Jewish state through the colonization of Palestine,[30][page needed][31] and the consequent first arrival of Jewish settlers to Ottoman Palestine in 1882." to something more like "The conflict has its origins in the rise of Zionism in the late 19th century in Europe, a movement which aimed to establish an official Jewish state. The succeeding decades saw a massive migration into the area." > Josephbidons (talk) 23:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The previous sentence makes it sound as if jews had long since left the area, but in fact The Jewish people have always occupied the territory we call Palestine/Israel. The only reason the name palestine exists was because the Romans named it after the Phillistines to mock the Jewish inhabitants. I do not support the atrocities committed by either side, but I think it is important to make it clear the presence of jewish people before 1882. maybe a consecutive sentence mentioning the jewish presence continually residing in the land of the levant

 Not done: this is neither an uncontroversial improvement, nor one that already has consensus. Please see WP:EDITXY for more information on what an uncontroversial improvement is. M.Bitton (talk) 00:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Spelling fix: causualties -> casualties

CHANGE:

The renewed violence, which continued sporadically until the beginning of World War II, ended with around 5,000 causualties on the Arab side and 700 combined on the British and Jewish side total.

TO:

The renewed violence, which continued sporadically until the beginning of World War II, ended with around 5,000 casualties on the Arab side and 700 combined on the British and Jewish side total. Qutecumber (talk) 02:38, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Done... - Adolphus79 (talk) 03:00, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Spelling: sepreme -> supreme

CHANGE:

Palestinians will be better at establishing internal security than we were, because they will allow no appeals to the Sepreme Court and will prevent [human rights groups] from criticizing the conditions there.

TO:

Palestinians will be better at establishing internal security than we were, because they will allow no appeals to the Supreme Court and will prevent [human rights groups] from criticizing the conditions there. Qutecumber (talk) 02:40, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Done... - Adolphus79 (talk) 02:59, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Settlers

Why has mention of settlers been removed from the infobox? [1] Makeandtoss (talk) 13:59, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Probably the reason is that other belligerents are organisations that took part in a conflict whereas the settlers do not constitute an organisation. The attacks conducted by settlers are more similar to terror attacks carried out by individual Palestinians - note that they are also not mentioned in the infobox.

Mentioning "Extremist settler groups" (possibly linked to hilltop youth) in the infobox might make sense, if this is supported by reliable sources. Alaexis_¿question? 22:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

That is incorrect since Palestinian fedayeen, who were individuals not part of any group, are in the infobox. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:50, 22 January 2025 (UTC)