Talk:Israel/Archive 72
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 65 | ← | Archive 70 | Archive 71 | Archive 72 | Archive 73 | Archive 74 | Archive 75 |
Request for Comment - final version of Israel's type of governance
- The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- A summary of the debate may be found at the bottom of the discussion.
Which one of the following statements shall be included in the lead? 22:30, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
Which one of the following statements shall be included in the lead?
1. "In its Basic Laws, Israel defines itself as a Jewish and democratic state.[1][2] Israel is a representative democracy[3][4][5] with a parliamentary system, proportional representation and universal suffrage.[6][7]"
2. "In its Basic Laws, Israel defines itself as a Jewish and democratic state.[1][2] Israel is a representative democracy[fn 1] with a parliamentary system, proportional representation and universal suffrage.[6][7]"
3. "In its Basic Laws, Israel defines itself as a Jewish and democratic state.[1][2] Israel is a parliamentary republic[3][4][5] with proportional representation and universal suffrage.[6][7]"
4. "In its Basic Laws, Israel defines itself as a Jewish and democratic state.[1][2] Israel is a parliamentary republic[fn 2] with proportional representation and universal suffrage.[6][7]"
- ^ Israel is described as a "free country" and a "democracy" by non-governmental organizations including both Democracy Index[3] and Freedom House.[4] However, it has been described by Israeli scholars Gideon Doron as a "non-liberal representative democracy",[5] and Sammy Smooha as an "ethnic democracy", while As'ad Ghanem, Nadim Rouhana, and Oren Yiftachel have described it as an "ethnocracy".[8]
- ^ Israel is described as a "free country" and a "democracy" by non-governmental organizations including both Democracy Index[3] and Freedom House.[4] However, it has been described by Israeli scholars Gideon Doron as a "non-liberal representative democracy",[5] and Sammy Smooha as an "ethnic democracy", while As'ad Ghanem, Nadim Rouhana, and Oren Yiftachel have described it as an "ethnocracy".[8]
- ^ a b c d "Basic Laws". knesset.gov.il. Retrieved 2018-07-30.
- ^ a b c d "Israel". Freedom in the World. Freedom House. 2008. Retrieved 20 March 2012.
- ^ a b c d Israel ranks within the top 30 in the world out of 167 countries. "Democracy Index 2017 — FULL REPORT by the Economist Intelligence Unit" (PDF).
{{cite web}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter:|dead-url=
(help) - ^ a b c d Israel ranks the aggregate score of 79 points out of 100. "Freedom in the World 2018 — FULL REPORT by the Freedom House" (PDF).
{{cite web}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter:|dead-url=
(help) - ^ a b c d Augustus Richard Norton (2001). Civil society in the Middle East. 2 (2001). BRILL. p. 193. ISBN 90-04-10469-0.
- ^ a b c d Rummel 1997, p. 257 . "A current list of liberal democracies includes: Andorra, Argentina, ..., Cyprus, ..., Israel, ..."
- ^ a b c d "Global Survey 2006: Middle East Progress Amid Global Gains in Freedom". Freedom House. 19 December 2005. Retrieved 20 March 2012.
- ^ a b Dowty, Alan (1999). "Is Israel Democratic? Substance and Semantics in the "Ethnic Democracy" Debate". Israel Studies. 4 (2). Indiana University Press: 1–15.
Sammy Smooha classifies Israel in the historically-rare category of "ethnic democracy"; As'ad Ghanem, Nadim Rouhana, and Oren Yiftachel challenge the "democracy" component of that taxonomy and suggest instead the label of "ethnocracy," a somewhat less rare but still infrequent species; Ruth Gavison argues for moving the debate into explicit rather than submerged normative terms, and concludes that there is no necessary conceptual inconsistency between a state being Jewish and its being a democracy. All, however, describe the actual situation of non-Jews in Israel, in law and in practice, in similar terms. In Smooha's words, "minorities are treated as second-class citizens, feared as a threat, excluded from the national power structure, and placed under some control," while "at the same time [they] are allowed to conduct a democratic and peaceful struggle that yields incremental improvement in their status".
ששש.מ.ל (talk) 22:30, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
Please note that this RfC was initiated by a sock-puppet account as per this investigation. It has been blocked. Veritycheck✔️ (talk) 14:37, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose all 4, and any other option which excludes reference to the ongoing dispute: Dozens and dozens of sources have been brought, now and over the years (see archives), showing that the nature of Israeli democracy is a fiercely debated topic. The recent change to the Basic Laws has brought this issue into greater focus. The various positions must be shown to the reader, else we look non-neutral, or worse, like we’re trying to hide something, particularly since all other scholarly or press sources discuss the issue widely and openly. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:31, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
Did you miss the ref note? I included all of your scholars and phrases in options 2 and 4. So what's the problem? ששש.מ.ל (talk) 22:34, 30 July 2018 (UTC)- The footnote is ok but there needs to be a few words in the main text pointing to the issue. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:36, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
Extended discussion, no votes
|
---|
References
|
- Option 1. Israel is not a republic (one could perhaps have argued it was a republic during the "direct election" of the PM - a short-lived experiment in the 90s), but a parliamentary system (similar to the United Kingdom or Canada which are not republics - and Israel's system is "purer" in that that there is a single house, and no monarch figurehead (though the elected (by parliament) president does perhaps serve in the same role)). The footnote is UNDUE - op-eds and advocacy positions by pro-Palestinians who generally oppose the state of Israel - should not be used as these positions are highly biased. We should prefer neutral independent sources, such as Democracy Index, which do not use such language.Icewhiz (talk) 08:02, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
Extended discussion, no votes
|
---|
|
- Oppose all 4, and any other option which excludes reference to the ongoing dispute: Democracy, itself, is disputed. See the section on this Talk page. Moreover, go to the library, turn on the TV, and Google the issue. Veritycheck✔️ (talk) 14:13, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
- Option 1 Israel is considers a democracy by the top research institutions in the field. Just adding another survey of Pew Research Center who listed Israel as a democratic nation, they used the ratings of Polity data series (See table inside the article) or page 48 in the Global Report 2017. US department of State defines Israel as "a multiparty parliamentary democracy". Encyclopædia Britannica defines Israel as "democratic republic with a parliamentary system". The World Factbook: "parliamentary democracy". The footnote is a clearly WP:UNDUE "Wikipedia should not present a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserves as much attention overall as the majority view. Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views (such as Flat Earth)." Sokuya (talk) 16:15, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
- Option 1 per Freedom House and Democracy Index.--יניב הורון (Yaniv) (talk) 21:35, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose all 4 The content is clearly disputed by highly-cited academic sources and thus needs qualified in the article text. Attempts to characterize these scholars as undue are seriously misguided - Ben-Rafael has hundreds of cites, Oren Yiftachel's book has nearly 800. These are much stronger sources then the CIA World Factbook, etc. Seraphim System (talk) 21:39, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
- This RfC is pointless because it does not even discuss the issue which it is meant to resolve. I suggest two things: first, discussion about the topic be first done in the article. Probably in the section "Government and politics". Then, that can be summarized in the lead. At the moment, the work has not been done. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 00:50, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
- Comment I agree with this strongly. Usually controversial RfCs about the lede that are proposed before consensus is reached about article content accomplish little beyond disruption and they circumvent the regular consensus/editing process. Given the frequency of these types of proposals, it may be a good idea to add a note in the RfC policy that proposals about the lede that are likely to be controversial should reflect the outcome of consensus discussions about the article content. Proposing these very controversial RfCs about the lede content before there is consensus about the article content is a major waste of community time.Seraphim System (talk) 01:17, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
- Option 1, the importance of research by independent research institutions far outweighs comments made by specific people, not all of whom (if any) are experts on the subject. Every democracy has certain flaws, and each person can argue over the merits of one aspect over another—this does not even deserve a footnote. For example, Israel ranks #2 in citizen participation according to the Democracy Index, which is a major tenet of democracies that can't be imposed from the top down. There is no justification for any notes unless they are also added to articles about every other democratic country pointing out certain problematic aspects. —Ynhockey (Talk) 20:36, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
- Democracy Index should probably be discussed at RS/n at some point. I don't know why editors believe these measures are authoritative over a highly-cited book or other scholarly secondary sources. These types of measures shouldn't ever be used as RS for anything other then the results of the study [5]. Seraphim System (talk) 21:23, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
Ah, yet another op-ed. 83.250.139.231 (talk) 07:50, 6 August 2018 (UTC)- Additional sources were added in the extended discussions by Onceinawhile. I'm confident more can be found but it doesn't seem like it would be productive to add them at this time, as the sources that have already been posted should be sufficient. Most likely we are going to have to revisit this in a more organized way and take it point by point. This RfC has been a bit disorganized from the outset.Seraphim System (talk) 19:12, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
- Democracy Index should probably be discussed at RS/n at some point. I don't know why editors believe these measures are authoritative over a highly-cited book or other scholarly secondary sources. These types of measures shouldn't ever be used as RS for anything other then the results of the study [5]. Seraphim System (talk) 21:23, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
- Option 1 Representative democracy is not a high bar to reach. No evidence presented to the contrary.Jonney2000 (talk) 23:07, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
- Prefer Option 1 -- it's better than the three alternatives, two of which have a pretty unstandard treatment of a country's democracy in the lede. See Indonesia, Armenia where the info is to be found only in the specific in-depth section, etc -- although we mention controversies in some like Turkey, even then we don't subject the state to an academic debate about the validity of its official form of governance -- going in depth like that is for the relevant sections. --Calthinus (talk) 01:04, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
- Either options 1 or 3 are fine -- These two options are stylistically best. Israel is generally considered a democratic country by other democratic countries. The democratic system of government in Israel is a fact, whereas the issues of the Israeli-Arab conflict are political question outside Wikipedia's purview to take a stand on. Israel's parliamentary system fits quite well within the normal parameters of a democratic country -- in almost all democratic countries there are some flaws: USA (a weird electoral college system and a recent electoral result influenced by outside actors), India (a history of political corruption and communal tensions), or Croatia (purged their ethnic minorities in the 1990s). Finally, hyperbolic op-ed columns (of which there are plenty questioning U.S. democracy too) do not count as reliable sources. OtterAM (talk) 01:12, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
- Option 1 As the best representation of current situation --Shrike (talk) 10:27, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
Conclusion
First and foremost, when trying to evaluate any consensus here and in relevant discussions on this page, it should be noted that the following user accounts were blocked as sock puppets:
- Sword & Olive Branch (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- Code Temple (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- ששש.מ.ל (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
Veritycheck✔️ (talk) 23:27, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
All of the arguments in favour of using option 1 are the conclusions of Democracy Index, Freedom House, Pew Research, Polity Data, and Encyclopedia Britannica (as well as US State Dept. and World Factbook, but those two are arguably biased), as they all listed Israel as a "parliamentary democracy". So we have at least five internationally praised NGOs specializing in the field, up against the personal opinions of a few op-ed writers and anti-Israel activists. I think it's time to close the RfC and go with option 1, alternatively also add the three other reliable NGOs as sources. 83.250.139.231 (talk) 07:50, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
- You forgot to mention the entire academic research community. You also forgot to mention that all the NGO sources you refer to caveat Israeli democracy in some way.
- You are creating a strawman by implying that the NGOs disagree with the academic community and the high-end jouralistic organizations. There is no disagreement - everyone recognizes the open debate. Some formats are just less suited to publishing details in full. Onceinawhile (talk) 10:04, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
Again, what "community"? You only listed three radical leftists who used the term "ethnocracy". And yes, there is an open debate on everything - because guess what - Israel has free speech! That still doesn't mean you get to value personal opinions above objective facts on Wikipedia. They "caveat" every country in some way! Shall we remove the term "democracy from their pages as well, or only Israel? 83.250.139.231 (talk) 10:42, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
- This talk page has already seen numerous sources including Huffingtonpost, the New York Times, ABC, Haaretz , Time, amongst others that all describe Israel’s democracy as disputed. This is sufficient reason to keep it in the article. There is no doubt of the dispute. The article does not say that Israel is not democratic – only that the dispute exists. It should remain this way until the dispute ends. Veritycheck✔️ (talk) 23:00, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
- I suggest to 83.250.139.231 (talk) to see WP:JUSTDROPIT. To other editors, it might be better to not waste our time further by responding to him/her and his/her host of other blocked sock puppet accounts. Veritycheck✔️ (talk) 23:45, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
- Is it intended that this RfC be kept open? The opening statement has been struck (using invalid markup, but that's another issue), and so everything that appears at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Politics, government, and law is also struck. If the RfC is to be closed, please remove the
{{rfc}}
tag, and (optionally) wrap the whole thing in{{closed rfc top}}
/{{closed rfc bottom}}
, see WP:RFCEND. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 09:02, 7 August 2018 (UTC)- No reason to cancel the RfC, several people already responded to it. I un-stroke the statement; even if the user who began the RfC is a sockpupet it doesn't render it invalid. “WarKosign” 09:06, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
- @Onceinawhile: Either it's open or it's not. If open, please undo this edit; if closed, please observe WP:RFCEND. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 16:41, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
- No reason to cancel the RfC, several people already responded to it. I un-stroke the statement; even if the user who began the RfC is a sockpupet it doesn't render it invalid. “WarKosign” 09:06, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
I just want to emphasize that op-eds in newspapers do not count as reliable sources for fact or the official opinion of the publication. In many cases, a newspaper may run opinion pieces by multiple people with diametrically opposed views, and in many cases these opinion pieces may include political hyperbola. Many of the arguments above are based on this-or-that op-ed in the New York Times, Haaretz, etc. However, these op-eds is not usable in Wikipedia, except for demonstrating the view of the author. Instead, we should go with sources that are more often used for this type of question, such as the CIA Factbook, Encyclopedia Britannica. If we do want to include opinions, they should be whose opinion is notable like Democracy Index, Freedom House, or Pew Research. OtterAM (talk) 01:24, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
- It's pretty clear at this point that this was a disruptive RfC. I don't think this can be taken as any kind of consensus. These four options were unilaterally proposed by an editor who didn't participate in the relevant discussion Talk:Israel#Ethnic_democracy_vs_ethnocracy - the proposal basically ignored the ongoing discussion. This was made even worse by the second RfC which added additional options over the objections of the participating editors. The RfC should reflect a point of dispute between editors on the talk page, not four options made up by one editor without any input from participating editors. There shouldn't even be a dispute over whether the sources are reliable because this should already have a consensus before we even begin to discuss the lede. This has caused more problems then it has resolved. Now, a new editor has added an option 5 in a separate RfC. Seraphim System (talk) 02:53, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
This is such a confusing RFC. However, here's a recent (July 2018) article from Times of Israel https://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-democratic-nation-state-law-raises-questions-over-israels-purpose/ Jewish? Democratic? Nation-state law raises questions over Israel’s purpose .. While critics accuse the government of denying the existence of the Arab minority, others say newly adopted legislation merely states the obvious
IMHO, this article does a good job of covering both sides of the issue, and if I were involved in editing this page, I would rely on it as my primary source.
Akin to a constitutional amendment, the "basic law" declares — much like the country’s Declaration of Independence — that Israel is "the home of the Jewish people". Unlike the declaration, however, it asserts that Jerusalem is its capital, that national self-determination in the state of Israel is "unique to the Jewish people," and that Hebrew is the state’s language — while Arabic, previously an official language, is now designated as having "a special status in the state." ... the nation-state law will only anger, and further alienate, Israel’s Arab citizens. The message the law sends to them is unequivocal: "This state is not yours and this land does not belong to you."
Peter K Burian (talk) 13:25, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
New options
5. "In its Basic Laws, Israel defines itself as a Jewish and democratic state.[1][2] Israel is a multi-party[3] representative democracy[fn 1] with a parliamentary system, proportional representation and universal suffrage.[6][7]"
6. "In its Basic Laws, Israel defines itself as a Jewish and democratic state.[1][2] Israel is a multi-party[3] parliamentary republic[fn 2] with proportional representation and universal suffrage.[6][7]"
7. "In its Basic Laws, Israel defines itself as a Jewish and democratic state.[1][2] Israel is a multi-party parliamentary republic[3] with proportional representation and universal suffrage.[6][7] Both Democracy Index and Freedom House describe Israel as a "free country" and a "democracy", ranking it among the world's top countries in the areas of political rights and freedom of speech, but criticize the record of some of its other civil liberties.[4][5]
8. "In its Basic Laws, Israel defines itself as a Jewish and democratic state.[1][2] Israel is a multi-party parliamentary republic[3] with proportional representation and universal suffrage.[6][7] Both Democracy Index and Freedom House describe Israel as a "free country" and a "democracy", ranking it among the world's top countries in the areas of political rights and freedom of speech, but criticize the record of some of its other civil liberties.[4][5] Some scholars also use different descriptions for Israel's form of government.[fn 3]"
- ^ Both Democracy Index and Freedom House describe Israel as a "free country" and a "democracy", ranking it among the world's top countries in the areas of political rights and freedom of speech, but criticize the record of some of its other civil liberties.[4][5]
- ^ Both Democracy Index and Freedom House describe Israel as a "free country" and a "democracy", ranking it among the world's top countries in the areas of political rights and freedom of speech, but criticize the record of some of its other civil liberties.[4][5]
- ^ *Augustus Richard Norton (2001). Civil society in the Middle East. 2 (2001). BRILL. p. 193. ISBN 90-04-10469-0.
Israel has been described by Israeli scholar Gideon Doron as a "non-liberal representative democracy".
*Dowty, Alan (1999). "Is Israel Democratic? Substance and Semantics in the "Ethnic Democracy" Debate". Israel Studies. 4 (2). Indiana University Press: 1–15.Israeli scholars Sammy Smooha classifies Israel in the historically-rare category of "ethnic democracy"; and As'ad Ghanem, Nadim Rouhana, and Oren Yiftachel challenge the "democracy" component of that taxonomy and suggest instead the label of "ethnocracy," a somewhat less rare but still infrequent species; Ruth Gavison argues for moving the debate into explicit rather than submerged normative terms, and concludes that there is no necessary conceptual inconsistency between a state being Jewish and its being a democracy. All, however, describe the actual situation of non-Jews in Israel, in law and in practice, in similar terms. In Smooha's words, "minorities are treated as second-class citizens, feared as a threat, excluded from the national power structure, and placed under some control," while "at the same time [they] are allowed to conduct a democratic and peaceful struggle that yields incremental improvement in their status"
*"Ethnic Democracy Revisited: On the State of Democracy in the Jewish State". Israel Studies Forum. 20 (1). Berghahn Books: 3–27. 2005.Abstract: The current state of the debate over Israeli democracy and the state of Israeli democracy itself are analyzed through the citizenship status of Israel's Palestinian citizens. The two main theoretical models featured in this debate - Smooha's "ethnic democracy" and Yiftachel's "ethnocracy" - are discussed, focusing on the 'framework decisions' that inform their arguments. After demonstrating that the question of Israeli democracy should be viewed dynamically and historically, it will be clear that the Israeli state has been evolving from non-democratic ethnocracy, though ethnic democracy, toward non-democratic majoritarianism.
{{cite journal}}
: Unknown parameter|authors=
ignored (help)
*Peled, Yoav (1 October 2013). The Challenge of Ethnic Democracy: The State and Minority Groups in Israel, Poland and Northern Ireland. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-134-44893-7.As it has unfolded up to this point, then, the debate over whether Israel should be characterized as an ethnic democracy or an ethnocracy has been largely semantic, because it turned mostly on definitional issues: whether "democracy" should be defined thinly or thickly, and whether "Israel" itself should be defined broadly or narrowly.
*Greenstein, Ran (14 June 2018). "Israel as an Ethnic State". In Jeenah Na'eem (ed.). Pretending Democracy: Israel, and Ethnocratic State. Afro-Middle East Centre. p. 88. ISBN 978-0-620-54042-1.The debate over the meaning of Israel as an ethnic state, an ethnocracy as its critics call it, or an 'ethnic democracy' as it is referred to by some of its supporters, continues. An editorial in the December 2009 edition of Mada al-Carmel's journal addressed these debates by expressing regret over the global spread of the 'political discourse of two states for two peoples - a Palestinian state and a Jewish state'. In their view, 'the ethnic state is a recipe for continued injustice and for resistance to it, and thus for the continuation of the conflict. It is the democratic state that will guarantee equality among all citizens'. Whether the democratic state would be merely 'a state of all its citizens', or a state which recognises that its citizens are divided into ethnic groups, to be represented as collectives and not only individually, is an ongoing question."
*Peled-Elhanan, Nurit (1 October 2013). Palestine in Israeli School Books: Ideology and Propaganda in Education. I.B.Tauris. ISBN 978-0-85773-069-5.In spite of Israel's success to advertise its regime as a Democracy, it is often defined by researchers as either an 'Ethnocracy' or as an 'ethnic Democracy.' This is because ethnicity and not citizenship is the main determinant for the allocation of rights, power and resources in Israel. Jews who are citizens of other countries and Jewish settlers who live beyond the official border of the state have full citizenship rights while Arab citizens inside the state's borders don't, and Palestinians from the occupied West Bank are listed 'state-less.'
*Koensler, Alexander (28 March 2015). Israeli-Palestinian Activism: Shifting Paradigms. Ashgate Publishing, Ltd. p. 34. ISBN 978-1-4724-3947-5.
- ^ a b c d "Basic Laws". knesset.gov.il. Retrieved 2018-07-30.
- ^ a b c d "Israel". Freedom in the World. Freedom House. 2008. Retrieved 20 March 2012.
- ^ a b c d "Israel - Government". Encyclopedia Britannica. Retrieved 2018-08-06.
- ^ a b c d Israel ranks within the top 30 in the world out of 167 countries. "Democracy Index 2017 — FULL REPORT by the Economist Intelligence Unit" (PDF).
{{cite web}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter:|dead-url=
(help) - ^ a b c d Israel ranks the aggregate score of 79 points out of 100. "Freedom in the World 2018 — FULL REPORT by the Freedom House" (PDF).
{{cite web}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter:|dead-url=
(help) - ^ a b c d Rummel 1997, p. 257 . "A current list of liberal democracies includes: Andorra, Argentina, ..., Cyprus, ..., Israel, ..."
- ^ a b c d "Global Survey 2006: Middle East Progress Amid Global Gains in Freedom". Freedom House. 19 December 2005. Retrieved 20 March 2012.
Duoble 07 (talk) 08:18, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
I personally prefer Option 5 or 1. Duoble 07 (talk) 08:18, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
Arabic is no longer an official language in Israel, as of Aug 2018
According to this recently approved Israeli law: Basic Law: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People. The Hebrew version of Wikipedia has alraedy removed the Arabic translation of "The State of Israel" from its Infobox. We should do the same. 79.182.115.76 (talk) 15:46, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
It's still a special status language, which shall be used by the State's institutions according to the law. Normally, translations of lagnuages with such status are included in the wiki infoboxes. Mithrandir the Grey (talk) 16:29, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
- I do not support the proposal to remove all uses of Arabic from the info box. Arabic has a special legal status in Israel and a large number of its citizens use the language. Thus, translation of "The State of Israel" into Arabic is perfectly appropriate. OtterAM (talk) 17:07, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
- I also support keeping Arabic in the info box. It is a language that is vital and important within the State of Israel -- official or not.--Calthinus (talk) 15:53, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
- Arabic still need to be mention in the Infobox cause it have a 'special status' and its differ from other spoken languages such Russian, Amharic, Yiddish etc. "The Arabic language has a special status in the state; Regulating the use of Arabic in state institutions or by them will be set in law; This clause does not harm the status given to the Arabic language before this law came into effect. " It should be mention in
Other languages
with a footnote explaining the status of the language. The Arabic name of the state should be still feature in the article even though it not longer official language. See examples Algeria, Brunei, Cambodia, Somaliland, Tunisia, Mauritania, Nigeria. Sokuya (talk) 17:24, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
- Arabic still need to be mention in the Infobox cause it have a 'special status' and its differ from other spoken languages such Russian, Amharic, Yiddish etc. "The Arabic language has a special status in the state; Regulating the use of Arabic in state institutions or by them will be set in law; This clause does not harm the status given to the Arabic language before this law came into effect. " It should be mention in
- Not sure how any non English text helps those that read English.--Moxy (talk) 22:12, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
- Well under that criterion we'd delete the Hebrew too. --Calthinus (talk) 00:36, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
- Yup.....we have links on every page to language specific wikis if need be. Not sure how having non readable text is helpful. Its already in the lead breaking up the first sentence making it hard to read.....why do it 2 times?--Moxy (talk) 01:20, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
- You are assuming that those reading English Wikipedia can't read other languages. Obviously it is incorrect for some of the readers. “WarKosign” 11:17, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
- Yup.....we have links on every page to language specific wikis if need be. Not sure how having non readable text is helpful. Its already in the lead breaking up the first sentence making it hard to read.....why do it 2 times?--Moxy (talk) 01:20, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
- Well under that criterion we'd delete the Hebrew too. --Calthinus (talk) 00:36, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
Yes, Arabic should be listed as a language with Special Status. According to the Times of Israel (https://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-democratic-nation-state-law-raises-questions-over-israels-purpose/ Jewish? Democratic? Nation-state law raises questions over Israel’s purpose):
... and that Hebrew is the state’s language — while Arabic, previously an official language, is now designated as having "a special status in the state." Peter K Burian (talk) 18:13, 16 August 2018 (UTC)