Talk:Iron Fist (TV series)

Punisher series

There has been some back and forth over my edits. I didn't think the changes were bold, and I thought a revert or two was fair, to discuss in edit summaries and now on the talk page.

I feel strongly that it is unhelpful to readers of this encyclopedia article to take a sentence discussing the Punisher series and to provide them with a generic link to to The Punisher comic book character. In the context of this article about a Netflix series a link to Punisher series is much more relevant, and more likely to be what readers expect.

Others disagree, since at the time the Punisher series was only a proposal and not yet in development. I can see how that may have been the best decision at the time but now that there is an article for Punisher series, and now makes sense to use it. The principle of least astonishment applies (see also WP:EGG). The strict chronology of when things happened at the time isn't necessarily useful to readers of an article now and that makes all the difference.

• User:Brojam asserted that it was "correct" to use the generic Punisher link because the show didn't yet exist
• User:AlexTheWhovian has already made it clear he disagrees, by accusing me of edit warring, but I don't think he is giving other edits a fair chance especially since he reverted my edit with an unhelpful one word summary of "restore"

I'll be requesting a 3rd opinions either later today or tomorrow. -- 109.78.201.13 (talk) 18:45, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

The problem with linking it to Marvel's The Punisher is that it was not talking about that specific series but rather about any series with the Punisher character. Unlike the following sentence, which is specifically talking about Marvel's Jessica Jones. - Brojam (talk) 19:44, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

The strict chronology of when things happened at the time isn't necessarily useful to readers of an article now and that makes all the difference. That's your opinion, and that's what you need to gain a consensus for, as we've been telling you. Edit summaries are not the place for discussion. By the way, don't cry against accusations then make accusations yourself. Makes for a poor editing experience on your end. -- Alex^TW 02:06, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Future

This article confirms that Jones will continue to appear as Iron Fist in other areas of the MCU, but I'm not quite sure where it would be best to put this info. - adamstom97 (talk) 22:24, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

I had seen this and was going to just add it to our cancellation paragraph. Should something actually materialize with all this (ie the characters appearing elsewhere, or the Disney streaming thing happening), maybe we can make a "Future" section. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 04:08, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

Can we stop using "Marvel Cinematic Universe" (and "MCU") to refer to the world in which these shows are set, when Joe Russo and a staff writer at Collider both use it to refer specifically to the world in which the (literally) cinematic are set, as opposed to the world of the Netflix and ABC shows? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:28, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

No, we don't stop using terminology because "Joe Russo and a staff writer at Collider" use it for something else. Marvel Television makes these series, and it is their position that they are set in the MCU. It is not up to anyone else to say they are wrong. - adamstom97 (talk) 22:39, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Adamstom.97's recent reverts

Adam, please explain this. The source doesn't mention Iron Fist, and you are reading it in. "ambiguous marketing material cited to primary sources" is just a garnish on the main reason, which is that the content is essentially unsourced. Additionally, this edit implies you revert my edits without even thinking, since you initially reverted my carefully, manually restoring that part of your edit which wasn't a revert of my own. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:24, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

The second edit is irrelevant to this discussion, it is a simple ref error being sorted out. As for the actual issue, the source explicitly says "Would you consider reviving the Marvel shows that Netflix canceled?" This is one of those shows. - adamstom97 (talk) 22:41, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, but there are six of those shows (don't pretend that "at the time of the interview it was only Daredevil and Iron Fist -- you know they've cancelled all six) -- it's OR to assume he was talking about this show in particular, just as it's OR to assume he wasn't talking about this show because he said that they are "quality shows"; the difference is that my OR is not being included in the article. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:50, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Again, the quote is "Would you consider reviving the Marvel shows that Netflix canceled?" This is one of those shows. Any other interpretation of that statement and what series they are referring to is OR and your own personal opinion. Please stick to what we have been told, not what you want to hear. This is one of the "Marvel shows that Netflix canceled", and he is talking about all of them. - adamstom97 (talk) 22:56, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Do you not know how plurals work? He could have been talking about some, but not all; he could have just been playing coy for marketing reasons; his referring to them as "quality shows" means that, if he′s with the vast majority of critics, he was likely talking about the OTHER shows. There′s a whole world of possibilities regarding why your change is inappropriate. And yeah, he MAY be talking about all of them, but that is just your interpretation. In general, we need to be extremely careful in using primary sources like this. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:05, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

No, that is just ridiculous. If you ask someone to chop up the carrots on the bench, you don't expect them to assume that you only meant some of them and then arbitrarily cut up however many they want to, you expect them to cut them all up. If someone says that they teach the children in a certain classroom, they are not saying that they only teach some of the children in said classroom and you need to guess which ones for yourself. If someone talks about the Marvel series cancelled by Netflix, they are not talking about some specific ones without making any mention that they are being selective. If the word "some" or "certain" was used here then you would be right, but they are not, and it is you who is trying to impose a ridiculous interpretation on the information. "the Marvel shows that Netflix canceled" means "the Marvel shows that Netflix canceled". Period. Anything else is OR or SYNTH. - adamstom97 (talk) 00:12, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

I'm not seeing what is "just ridiculous" here. The source is an interview with Disney exec (itself needing to be handled with care -- it should be noted that whole big chunks of this article are heavily reliant on primary sources, so one sentence less of that is almost automatically an improvement), saying "Yeah, we might bring back the shows you love, Marvel fans -- just jump up and down and say you believe loud enough, and Tinkerbell might come back to life!" -- and there's also the fact that he said "they are quality shows", which almost no one would apply to Iron Fist -- at the time the interview was published the only "officially" cancelled ones were Luke Cage, Iron Fist and Daredevil, but as an insider who could definitely see the writing on the wall, he could have just as easily been talking about Jessica Jones, The Punisher or The Defenders. And, again, you're taking a primary source with a financial interest in getting fans to believe as hard as they can and clap their hands for Tinkerbell to come back at his word, which is pretty widely considered to be a no-no -- if you cannot find a reliable secondary source that says "Yeah, Disney might be seriously considering reviving Iron Fist for the following reasons...", then the content should stay out of the article. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:58, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

How could a secondary source possibly know anything about what Disney is thinking without finding out from Disney themselves? So any secondary source would be on the same level as a primary source here. And even if we had a secondary source, I'm sure we would be having the same conversation now. The source we do have says that there is potential for the cancelled Marvel Netflix series to be revived on Disney+, and, as you say, the only "officially" cancelled ones were Luke Cage, Iron Fist and Daredevil, so the statement definitely applies to those three series. We don't say that it will definitely happen, we just say that he said there was potential. And we definitely don't say that it might not apply to Iron Fist because some people don't like that show. That would be unbelievably biased, even for you. - adamstom97 (talk) 03:21, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

I'd be perfectly happy to let this go (even though you have not convince me, and I do not think you could convince anyone with an RFC, that the policy is on your side), if you would just drop the stick and accept my peace proposal. This is not an ultimatum in the form "Accept all my terms immediately!", but rather a statement that I am no longer interested in arguing with you over this and similar issues. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:51, 10 January 2019 (UTC)