Talk:Irish nationality law

Automatic and permanent permission to live and work

In the second paragraph of the lead, it says of Irish nationals as EU citizens that "they have automatic and permanent permission to live and work in any EU or European Free Trade Association (EFTA) country". Where this links to Freedom of movement for workers in the European Union. This covers those working in another EU country, but does this overlook other categories of people, e.g. students, retirees etc, who may not have automatic and permanent permission to settlement? At the EU's page Free movement - EU nationals it says: "Rights may differ somewhat for people who plan to be self-employed, students, and retired or otherwise economically non-active people." I wonder if this difference needs clarification? Thanks, Declangi (talk) 09:12, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Changed link to the Citizens' Rights Directive instead. Horserice (talk) 17:23, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

First para of the of the "Terminology" section seems altogether pointless; I am an Irish National. "Nationality" is ascribed to those born in the island of Ireland, and "citizenship" is the birthright of all Nationals, a right that can be extended to others born in other countries, subject to certain conditions. There is no ambiguity. Perhaps you'd care to edit around that? Mark^Dask 22:37, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

The term "Irish national" doesn't appear in current Irish legislation, not even in the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act, 1956. Nowhere in that Act is there a distinction between nationality for people born on the island versus citizenship specifically for people born in other countries. I would also point to the Guillaumond source to illustrate the ambiguity of the terms in the Irish context.

As for the first paragraph of the Terminology section, it is needed to provide proper context for the history of Irish citizenship and its relationship with British nationality. A reader from another country may be used to using the two terms interchangeably without understanding that there can be a distinction in some contexts. Horserice (talk) 03:48, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Am in the middle of reading Guillaumond, and the "Good Friday Agreement" (1998), but for the moment; I moved to England in 1977 and I've lived here since, but I remain an Irish National. My 29 yr old son was born in England, is English, but he has an Irish passport by dint of having an Irish Dad. He's never even been to Ireland. "Dual nationality" is a common term wherever English is spoken, but in reality it is more correct to speak of dual Citizenship. I'll read on Tomorrow Mark^Dask 04:37, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

It's probably more common to say "dual nationality" in the UK specifically because there are six different types of British nationality. For example, in addition to Irish citizenship, I wouldn't necessarily need to be a British citizen to be a dual national, I could also be a British National (Overseas). The term "dual citizenship" would be more common in Canada (where there is no such distinction between nationality and citizenship) and in Israel (where the Supreme Court has specifically ruled that an Israeli nationality does not exist).

Despite whatever domestic definitions though, any international dispute between two countries over the status of their people prefers the term nationality over citizenship (see the Nottebohm case or Chen v Home Secretary). This is why that first paragraph is important, to contextualize those terms in the scope of the article and it specifically calls out that the meanings can differ by country. Horserice (talk) 11:12, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

“Local residents” pre-independence

In the opening summary the Irish people pre-independence are referred to as "local residents" being "British subjects".

I understand in such circumstance it wouldn't be correct to refer to Irish as citizens but "local residents" seems a little flippant considering the circumstance.

Would it not true and legitimate in this circumstance to use the term "Irish nationals prior to independence were British subjects" in the same way somebody can be a Scottish or Welsh National today?

I have made the change in the text but would be keen to have insight and to learn from those more knowledgable on the matter. Jo Jc Jo^{Talk💬Edits📝} 23:31, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Would it not true and legitimate in this circumstance to use the term "Irish nationals prior to independence were British subjects" in the same way somebody can be a Scottish or Welsh National today?

In the context of this article? No, because we're strictly covering what Irish nationality is under a legal definition. Your suggested term "Irish nationals prior to independence" is inappropriate here because there was no definition for an Irish national enacted into law before 1932.

To follow up on your suggestion that it would be "true and legitimate" to describe someone as a Scottish or Welsh national today, no it would not be. The definition for nationality is given in the article as: a person's legal belonging to a sovereign state and is the common term used in international treaties when addressing members of a country. A Scottish or Welsh "national" (however you define that) is really a UK national, since this person would hold a UK passport. If you want to say someone is ethnically Scottish or Welsh, then that is of course perfectly valid. Horserice (talk) 21:06, 7 November 2023 (UTC)