Talk:Irina von Wiese

Recent controversy about the content

Hi, it seems highly inappropriate and a BLP-violation to me to add comments like those that have recently been added. Furthermore, I agree with other editors that some tweets and the background about von Wieses family are only of minor relevance and may profit from some trim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikitigresito (talk • contribs) 12:02, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

@Wikitigresito @Bondegezou "the background about von Wieses family are only of minor relevance and may profit from some trim." The poster, possibly not a million miles from the Lib Dem office, is well aware that this not a matter of "minor relevance", however soothingly anodyne such wording may sound. However, for the purposes of the case, we need to humour them: it is a matter of political public image. It would surely not be an overstatement to say that Von Weise portrays herself as a woman of the people with a familial background of refugeeism. All well and good. However, there is a broader truth. Irina von Weise und Kaiserwalde, to give her full legal name, is a Harvard-educated German aristocrat. That is entirely relevant to her life story, however much some may view it as 'an unconvenient truth'. As a daughter of privilege, she also apparently believes she is entitled to engage in public personal abuse of other politicians on Twitter, as detailed in her own words. And so she is: it's called Free Speech. Less comfortably, she apparently supports the overturn of Brexit, which – at last check – was the result of a democratic vote. However, Wikipedia is not judge and juror: it merely states the facts. If Irina's behaviour doesn't sit well with her supporter/s here, perhaps they should request her to moderate it. After all, a few have tried hard to suppress some facts here by all the usual ploys -- calling it a BLP violation (repeat: they are the subject's own words); and twisting OR Policy to suggest citing a source constitutes 'original research'! World without end. As for Irina's Tweets: she apparently has no problems with them, otherwise she wouldn't be posting them. Perhaps the tensed-up editor/s (clearly, unlike Irina, NOT of the gratin) should pretend they are, and relax in a patrician manner, and own the full colourful complex contrarian 360 degrees of her – like Trump supporters do their own. (Indeed: the two may be politically polar opposites, yet behaviourly on social media at least, seem surprisingly similar in some respects.) To sum up: A Wikipedia entry for a politician isn't a massaged party statement. If any of what has been posted on Irina's entry is technically incorrect, well, it obviously should not be included. But the bald facts appear to point to the very opposite. ClearBreeze (talk) 15:44, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

ClearBreeze, you should assume good faith when it comes to the actions of other editors. Please retract your comments inferring bad faith in their actions. Bondegezou (talk) 19:44, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

@Bondegezou Retracted utterly. Your attempts to disguise the unvarnished truth of Von Weise and her agenda, while as nakedly shameless as any guardian Pinoy troll hovering over a Marcos family article, are surely simply motivated by a desire to protect the reputation of this Prussian aristocrat...particularly from any whisper of a suggestion that her wish to overturn a Brexit vote of the peasants – correction: people – is profoundly undemocratic. ClearBreeze (talk) 06:50, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

The problem with this "truth" is that its not sourced. You inserted factual claims and direct quotes, but then embellished it with unsourced commentary. This unsourced commentary is the problematic part. Remember that as part of the biographies of living people, and across Wikipedia as a whole, we need to maintain neutrality, and refrain from expressing our own views or perspectives unless they are a factual and verifiable claim. Without your commentary, the parts you inserted about von Wiese's Prussian ancestry and her views on Brexit don't really add anything to the article. In fact, I can't find any source for "Irina von Wiese Prussian" by searching online, with implies your claim is original research based on her full surname. Wikipedia does not exist for the purposes of investigative journalism. It is possible that Irina von Wiese is a wealthy Prussian aristocrat with a vested interest in stopping Brexit. Conversely, it is possible she is, as she claims, a British/German national of Armenian descent who just feels strongly about remaining in the European Union. If you wish to investigate this or disclose your research, you must first ensure the research has been published in a reliable source so that your claims can be verified. Without secondary verification, content cannot be included into biographies. I hope this explains why numerous editors have had concerns about your pattern of editing here. Maswimelleu (talk) 13:20, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

@Maswimelleu states: "The problem with this "truth" is that its not sourced. You inserted factual claims and direct quotes." REALLY? Last time we checked, "factual claims and direct quotes" are actually what constitutes authoritative sourcing. You know, it does help if you come to Wikipedia sober. It prevents embarrassing self-contradiction like this. (However, with the way Boris is powering through, we can appreciate that plentiful lubrication and prescribed medication may be the order of the day at the LibDem office.) Now, to address all the hard-peddled BS of yourself and @Bondegezou – correction: good faith editing. Heh. (1) Her surname. While she employs Von Wiese as a working name, Von Wiese Und Kaiserswaldau is her full legal name. As recorded by the citations of the Hammersmith & Fulham Council website, and the (removed) citation of the Waterlow's Solicitors and Barristers Directory, which -- as you would well know -- is the authoritative directory of the legal profession. (The entry information for which would come from the office at which she worked, or from a form submitted by her own good self.) End of story. (2) Her noble background. If we really wanted to be mischievous, we could seek to detail her background more fully, such as grandfather Leopold von Wiese and his antisemitic views, and point to a few nice Nazi SS officers, such as Walther von Wiese und Kaiserswaldau. But that's not our intention. We simply believe that some basic inconvenient truths, like her noble background, which her supporters on Wikipedia have sought to aggressively suppress, need to be stated. (Like Countess Róża Maria Thun und Hohenstein, José Manuel José Manuel García-Margallo y Marfil, Paolo Gentiloni, the Earl of Dartmouth, the Earl of Mornington, etc etc., she joins the long line of aristocrats who have joined the over-paid European elite in Brussels over the years, at an oligarchic institution now headed by a child of the political elite, who is married to a baron.) The Von Wiese Und Kaiserswaldau family hails from the Silesian nobility. Silesia was a province of Prussia. This is indisputable. Here is their coat of arms. It's a family detailed in any number of Prussian histories. That you dispute this shows you are either ignorant of her background (somewhat troubling given your support) or deliberately feigning it. Which is it? Standard references such as the Dictionary Of German Biography state in its entry for her grandfather, Leopold von Weise und Kaiserswaldau: he "came from an old aristocratic family, spent his youth in the Prussian cadet corps." And you would know that if you had spent any time amongst aristocrats, however much they seek to downplay the family background, it remains ever-constant and ever-relevant. And in an full written impartial biography (rather than a brief party biographical statement) would almost certainly be mentioned. End of story. (3) Her recent political behaviour. What was removed included her OWN statements! It said: Von Weise maintains an official account on the social media platform Twitter, which she has used to post personal abuse of other politicians. She has called Boris Johnson: "A racist, xenophobic, sexist liar," and Anne Widdecombe, "anti-LGBTQ, anti-women & anti-equality," stating "I’m embarrassed that..[she] will be sitting alongside me on the #EuropeanParliament civil liberties committee.""(Need it be said: to call Widdecombe anti-women and anti-equality is beyond insulting, but clearly Von Wiese has no problems dishing it out.) "In yet another Twitter post she claimed,"Brexit will kill people…We will #stopBrexit"" And the sky will fall in. We then added: "in other words, that the Liberal Democrats would seek to thwart the result of a democratic vote." There is no other interpretation. Von Wiese herself stated: "We have always said that what we want to do ultimately is to stop Brexit." Hello! When her fellow MEP Martin Daubney addressed her on the very point of respecting the will of the people, our noble missy replied: "It’s quite ironic for Martin to talk of the will of the people. I wonder what he would say if the European Parliament was suspended by President Juncker for example and he was denied his say at a crucial phase." To which Daubney answered: "we have no legislative power. We vote on laws that other people put through. And you know this, Irina." Bingo. One fellow politician whom Von Wiese has sought to slander, Ann Widdecombe, called politicians of her ilk 'treacherous' Remainers for seeking to make Brexit on Oct 31 ‘impossible’. In short: it's an exceedingly sorry tale of a child of privilege at odds with democracy, but one fully and authoritatively cited. And one that should be coldly, factually stated in her Wikipedia entry. End of story. ClearBreeze (talk) 01:52, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, but you are arguing against three editors and your arguments do not seem to convince any of us. I also recommend that you tone down a bit. You can ask for an uninvolved editor to determine consensus but I don't think that the content that you propose to include stands much of a chance. wikitigresito (talk) 14:15, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

@ClearBreeze: What I find incredible is that someone who has so many comments to make about this woman and her family systematically spells the name wrong: it's Wiese, not Weise. "Von Wiese und Kaiserswaldau" actually means "of the grassland and of the meadow of the emperor's forest" (check here: Wiese, Aue, Wald, Kaiser). If you misspell that, you lose half of the flavour! --Edelseider (talk) 18:24, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

References