Talk:Ireland at the Olympics

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Medallists (23)

Ignoring the "(23)" bit in the heading, why is there an asterisk next to Michelle Smith for all four of her medals? There's no reference for it anywhere in the article. DitzyNizzy (aka Jess) (talk) 19:41, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There has been occasional vandalism on this site regarding Smith's medal count. While Smith received a suspension later in her career for drugs, the IOC has never changed the results of the 1996 Olympics and she retains all her medals. Irregulargalaxies (talk) 23:29, 19 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed wording for intro

Ireland has been represented as an independent state at the Summer Olympic Games since 1924 in Paris. From 1900 to 1920, Irish athletes competed as part of the Great Britain team as part of United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. An attempt was made in 1906 to gain "separate nation" status but was stopped by Prince George of Greece and Denmark. Since 1924 the team has represented the Republic of Ireland.

Athletes from Northern Ireland can choose to compete for either the Ireland team or the UK team (which competes under the name Great Britain), per an agreement between the Olympic Council of Ireland and the British Olympic Association. Athletes in sports organised on an all-Ireland basis such as boxing tend to represent the Republic of Ireland. Whereas those in sports organised on a Northern Ireland or UK basis such as athletics tend to represent Great Britain.^{[citation needed]}

I think it clears everything up and there's no changing the names of the teams for POV reasons or anything.ThatsGrand (talk) 15:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the current wording is preferable. It is misleading to say that "Ireland has been represented since 1924", since Ireland was represented before that as part of the UK (known as GB) team. Given the title of the article, it's necessary to be clear in the intro that the team represents the Republic and not the whole island. Mooretwin (talk) 12:53, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok how about the first line says Ireland has been represented as an independent state at the Summer Olympic Games since 1924 in Paris.

That's clear its not the island being represented, but the state. ThatsGrand (talk) 12:58, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's not clear at all, unless you click the link, and we can't assume that readers will do so. The current wording is in itself a compromise, since the most prominent usage - the title of the article - says "Ireland", whereas "Republic" is only used in the intro text.Mooretwin (talk) 14:14, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can't agree to that. The first line is clear that its a state its talking about. Ireland is the name of the team and the state and there is plenty of explanation below. Your reasoning is that people won't know that Ireland is a country, which is a crazy pov.ThatsGrand (talk) 14:17, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's not crazy pov. It's quite plausible that readers will presume it's an all-Ireland team, when it says "Ireland". Why not stick with the current wording? What's wrong with it, exactly?

It says independent state though about 5 words in! It also explains the situation and mentions ROI about a line later. Whats wrong is that it suggests ROI is the name of the state and team.ThatsGrand (talk) 14:23, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, since it mentions ROI later in the intro, I'll concede it. Mooretwin (talk) 14:45, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok good. I'm glad we can agree on this.ThatsGrand (talk) 14:49, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've reworded the intro. I hope the later additions explain why. jnestorius^(talk) 00:14, 28 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

More on the name

Some Olympic Bulletins relating to the name and coverage of the OCI:

No.1 p.12 (1926: addresses of members): Irlande . . . . . . . . J. J. Keane, 68, Upper O’Connell street, Dublin

No.26 June 1934: Irlande . . . . . . . . . . . . J. J. Keane, (1922), 68, Upper O’Connell street, Dublin.

No. 27 December 1934: Etat libre d’Irlande J. J. Keane, (1922), 68, Upper O’Connell street, Dublin.

No. 31 p.13 (1936): DIFFICULTIES WITH THE IRISH OLYMPIC COMMITTEE After having heard an explanation of this question from the President, the Members present were of the opinion that the participation of Irish rowers would be allowed, if the International Federation did not object to the signature of the National Olympic Committee being remplaced by that of Mr. Keane, member for the Irish Free State.

No.35 July 1937: Etat libre d’Irlande J. J. Keane, (1922), 68, Upper O’Connell street, Dublin

No. 36 (Jan 1938) p.2

Eire. . . . . . . . J. J. Keane, 68, Upper O’Connell street, Dublin

(new Constitution came into effect 29-12-1937)

No. 11 p.34 (1948): Affaire cycliste irlandaise.; M. Southscott (cyclisme) aimerait connaître la ligne de conduite à suivre concernant la situation du cyclisme en Irlande.; M. Brundage (C. I. O.) expose le problème de l’Irlande et de l’Eire dans ses détails. En 1923, la question politique fut résolue, en ce sens que le Nord fut dépendant de la Grande-Bretagne, et le Sud est devenu indépendant. En 1932, à Los-Angelès, l’Eire demanda d’englober tous les athlètes du territoire de l’Irlande. M. Brundage rappelle que la situation des différents sports n’est pas la même suivant les arrangements existants entre les dirigeants de l’Eire et de la Grande-Bretagne. Pour ce qui concerne le cyclisme, la Fédération de l’Eire n’est pas affiliée à la F. I. correspondante, par conséquent. son inscription ne peut pas être prise en considération.; Lord Burghley (athlétisme) intervient pour dire qu’il existe dans l’Eire une fédération qui est suspendue par l’I. A. A. F. La Grande-Bretagne, dit-il, considère les sujets de l’Eire comme sujets britanniques, tandis que ceux-ci se considèrent avant tout comme sujets de l’Eire.; Lord Aberdare (C. I. O.) admet que la situation est très compliquée, mais qu’une loi est en préparation qui fera que les citoyens de l’Eire seront d’abord des sujets de cet état, et ensuite, s’ils le désirent, pourront être citoyens britanniques. Le délégué du cyclisme déclare que dans un but d’intérêt sportif, sa fédération s’est montrée assez large d’esprit. La situation est toutefois irrégulière, et il faut une bonne fois y mettre fin. Les négociations sont en cours.; Le Col. Russell (boxe) explique que la situation de son sport en Irlande englobe l’ensemble de ce pays (Eire et Irlande du Nord). Sa fédération n’éprouve aucune difficulté de cette situation.

No.15 p.28 (1949)

After that the State of EIRE has become independant, the .O.C., at its session of Rom[e], has decided that athletes of North Ireland should be affiliated to the national federations of Great Britain, while those of South Ireland have to be affiliated to the national federations of EIRE.

Obviously a poor translation of the original French text.

No.27 p.12 (1951: minutes of the 45th session in Vienna)

Requête de l’Eire. Lord Burghley fait rapport au sujet de l’appellation qui conviendrait à ce pays. Ensuite des renseignements pris auprès du Foreign Office de Londres, il n’y a que deux appellations possibles: Eire ou République d’Irlande. Il est décidé de dénommer ce pays à l’avenir sous le nom de « République d’Irlande », ce qui donnera du reste satisfaction au Comité olympique de ce pays.

[my approximate translation; the English bulletin isn't in the la84foundation archives]: Request of Eire: Lord Burghley made a presentation on what name will suit this country. According to information received from the Foreign Office in London, there are only two possible names: Eire or Republic of Ireland. It was decided to refer to this country in future as "Republic of Ireland", which will be acceptable to the Olympic Committee of the country.

No. 32 p.10-11 (1952: minutes of the 46th session in Oslo): Ireland.—The request of the Irish I. O. C. to the effect that the country should in the future be called « Ireland » is turned down and the country’s appellation will remain as it has been hitherto: «Republic of Ireland».

No.52 November 1955

National Olympic Committees : Afghanistan, South-Africa, Germany, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Brazil, Bulgaria, Canada, China (Peking), Korea, Cuba, Egypt, Spain, United States, Ethiopia, Finland, France, Great-Britain, Greece, Holland, Hungary, Iran, Irish Republic (Eire). Iceland. Israel. Italy, Japan, Lebanon, Luxemburg, Malay, Mexico, Monaco. Norway, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Rumania, Saar, Sweden, Switzerland, Czechoslovakia, Siam, Turkey, U. S. S. R., Venezuela, Viet-Nam, Yugoslavia.

Again, obviously translated from the French. My emphasis.

République d’Irlande : Olympic Council of Ireland, c/o Chief Supt. P. Carroll. B. L., The National Stadium, South Circular Rd., Dublin.

No.53 February 1956: Irlande, : Olympic Council of Ireland, c/o Chief Supt. P. Carroll. B. L., The National Stadium, South Circular Rd., Dublin.

It's perhaps significant that the 1951–2 meetings were at a time when JJ Keane had left the IOC and Lord Killalin had not yet joined. jnestorius^(talk) 17:53, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So it looks like the name went:

1922	Ireland
1934	Irish Free State
1938	Eire
1951	Republic of Ireland
1956	Ireland

"Ireland has been represented as an independent state"

I have reverted this edit. The summary "making it less political about the name and just stating facts. this page should be about the team, not jurisdictions" is misguided. I'm not sure what "just about the team" means; is it suggested to restrict the scope to sports statistics? If so, that is clearly inappropriate. Wikipedia is not a sports almanac; the question of political jurisdiction was a significant one in the history of the Irish Olympic team, and this article is the right place to explain that. In 1924–32, the "Ireland" team did not view itself as an "Irish Free State" team; and the IOC adopted an agnostic stance for as long as it could, before ultimately deciding otherwise. Other non-independent states have competed (e.g. British India, Puerto Rico) and mixed-nation teams United German Team, United Team) so the putative all-island Ireland team of 1924-8-32 would not be a solitary anomaly. jnestorius^(talk) 16:59, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Conflict within Article

"The team now represents the Republic of Ireland." Does not fit with ,"The OCI sees itself as representing the island rather than the state, and hence uses the name "Ireland"." I am not going to edit it , as discussion is needed to clarify BOTH sentences as , 1# Ireland is (officially) the island AND state and 2# the athletes from Nothern Ireland CAN represent the Ireland or the GB teams so saying solely the "republic" is also an anomaly .Murry1975 (talk) 13:14, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Relating to point 2# http://www.breakingnews.ie/sport/olympics-on-mcilroy-radar-509661.html & http://wilson2012blog.dailymail.co.uk/2011/06/mcilroys-dilemma-olympic-gold-for-britain-or-ireland.html , two articles that state that a competitor from Northern Ireland CAN choose either .Murry1975 (talk) 14:29, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I will remove the "The team now represents the Republic of Ireland" piece as the above examples show that to be inaccurate (unless there is part of Nothern Ireland that is in the republic).Murry1975 (talk) 19:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's not inaccurate. The team represents the Republic of Ireland. The fact that some NI sportsmen and women may participate in the team doesn't alter that. There is no all-Ireland state that may be represented at the Olympics. Mooretwin (talk) 14:12, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

People born in NI are entitled to Irish passports to the same extent as those born in RoI. I would imagine that non-residents of any state can represent it at the Olympics if they have a passport/are citizens, and hence that Ireland is no exception in that regard. But it might be an exception nevertheless; salient questions are whether:

people born in NI with a UK passport and no RoI passport are entitled to compete for the OCI team at the Olympics; and if so,
this is an exceptional provision agreed between the International Olympic Committee, Olympic Council of Ireland, and British Olympic Association (as opposed to an instance of some general principle applicable to many pairs of countries)

If both 1 and 2 are true, then one can indeed argue that the OCI team represents the island rather than the state. I don't know whether either is, but would be interested to find out.

There are dependent territories which are IOC members, some of which have no separate citizenship from the sovereign power. In such cases, I don't know whether the OCI, the sovereign NOC, or the dependency NOC controls who is eligible to represent which of the two teams. This situtation is obviously not the same as the Ireland one, but illustrates that there is not a one-to-one correspondence between OCI members and sovereign states. jnestorius^(talk) 15:24, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

People born on the island regardless of British or Irish passports CAN represent the team , as the McIlroy article shows . To say that it is just Irish passport holders is INACURATE and thier is an agreement that allows this to happen which proves both point 1 and 2 above . The OCI claims juristriction over the island , as stated in the article , which drew my attention the conflict of comments within . Therefore the positioning that it is a team that represents the republic is inaccurate.

http://www.sportni.net/NR/rdonlyres/BF59D2D4-5E29-4B3E-9F7E-ED8470E43F7A/0/NIOlympiansandParalympians.pdf Now if we can establish that those on this list that are tagged IRE have Irish passports , I will concede the point but without proof their is no reason to state "The team now represents the Republic of Ireland" and if we state "The team now...." we should define since when . Mooretwin has state that no all-island team exists but the OCI state IT IS an all island organisation whether there is an all Ireland state or not . I am not going to edit war here , thats what this page is for but I am removing that line again as it still shows flaws . This needs to be dicussed before being a form that shows what the team actually represents rather than a POV that it is solely a Republic-Irish passport team .Murry1975 (talk) 19:43, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Come on, people, how can it represent the island of Ireland, when the island of Ireland is not a state? Northern Ireland is part of the UK, which has its own team. Only states may compete at the Olympics (you'll have noticed the Tricolour being used to represent the team in Beijing, for example). As you will see from the Olympic Charter (http://multimedia.olympic.org/pdf/en_report_122.pdf):

1(2) The three main constituents of the Olympic Movement are the International Olympic Committee (“IOC”), the International Sports Federations (“IFs”) and the National Olympic Committees (“NOCs”). Any person or organisation belonging in any capacity whatsoever to the Olympic Movement is bound by the provisions of the Olympic Charter and shall abide by the decisions of the IOC.

28(1) The mission of the NOCs is to develop, promote and protect the Olympic Movement in their respective countries, in accordance with the Olympic Charter.

28(3) The NOCs have the exclusive authority for the representation of their respective countries at the Olympic Games and at the regional, continental or world multi-sports competitions patronised by the IOC. In addition, each NOC is obliged to participate in the Games of the Olympiad by sending athletes.

31(1) In the Olympic Charter, the expression “country” means an independent State recognised by the international community.

You'll also see from here (http://www.olympics.org.uk/contentpage.aspx?page=20) that the BOA "is the National Olympic Committee (NOC) for Great Britain and Northern Ireland". Mooretwin (talk) 21:34, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

How American Samoa at the Olympics, Hong Kong at the Olympics, etc. qualify under 31.1 I don't quite see.

The olympic.org has a biography of Lord Killanin which says:

In 1950, Killanin was appointed President of the Irish Olympic Committee, a position he held until 1973. This appointment marked his official entry into the Olympic Movement. Two years later, he was elected as a member of the International Olympic Committee (IOC) in Ireland. The difficult political situation in this country enabled him to develop his sense of diplomacy and his great ability as a mediator, as he tried to represent Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic within a single body.

News reports of the 2004 dispute:

BBC 27 Jan: The row is being caused by the BOA's officially laying claim to Northern Ireland athletes for the Olympics. According to the International Olympic Committee's existing charter, the Olympic Council of Ireland represents the whole island of Ireland. However, Northern Ireland athletes have always been able to compete for GB. But now the BOA has included Northern Ireland in its new Olympic contract to be signed for the 2004 Athens Games. ... Olympic sources have confirmed that the BOA is also in the process of attempting to change their charter with the IOC to include the words Northern Ireland alongside England, Scotland and Wales.
Independent 28 Jan: Patrick Hickey ... is angry that the British Olympic Association ... has added Northern Ireland to its Team GB banner under which athletes from England, Scotland and Wales compete. ... Under current arrangements the OCI has full responsibility for the 32 Irish counties, although athletes from northern Ireland may compete for either nation. ... A spokesman for the BOA said that it had included Northern Ireland in its contracts for the Salt Lake City Winter Olympics in 2002. It wanted to retain the "status quo" which enables Northern Irish athletes to choose between representing Britain or Ireland.
Daily Telegraph 21 Feb: The claim by Pat Hickey, president of the Irish committee, that they had jurisdiction over the whole of Ireland was accepted. ... The status of Northern Ireland had already caused confusion at the International Olympic Committee. A staff member said: "Through an error we have given both national Olympic committees rights over the same area."

I don't know what "charter" thsse reports mean; I guess it's a specific agreement between an NOC and the IOC, rather than the IOC's overall charter, since the latter makes no mention of particular members. I can't find details of these subsidiary charters or accession treaties or whatever they are on the olympic.org website. The Great Briain country page on olympic.org does not include "Northern Ireland" in the name. I don't know whether the 2004 decision still obtains in 2011, but the news reports suggest that in 2004 at least, the OCI was still an all-island body.

OTOH Oireeachtas Joint Committee on Arts, Sport, Tourism, Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs 2008 (Patrick Hickey, president of the Olympic Council of Ireland, and his colleagues Mr. Dermot Henihan, Tom Rafter and Dermot Sherlock) points in the other direction:

Deputy Michael Kennedy: The woman in question [an athlete at the 2004 games] was born in England. How does she qualify to compete for Ireland? I am just curious.
Mr. Patrick Hickey: It is very simple. I will let Mr. Sherlock explain.
Mr. Dermot Sherlock: If someone is entitled to an Irish passport and is in possession of that passport, he or she can qualify to compete for Ireland as long as he or she has not competed for some other country in a previous Olympic Games. If he or she had competed for another country previously, we might allow him or her to compete for Ireland.
Deputy Michael Kennedy: It depends on whether one has an Irish passport.
Mr. Dermot Sherlock: The Irish passport is used as the measurement.
Mr. Patrick Hickey: As people from Northern Ireland can choose whether to have an Irish or a British passport, athletes from that part of the world can choose whether to compete for Ireland or Britain.

Possibly something changed between 2004 and 2008? In any case, it's not so clearcut. jnestorius^(talk) 21:46, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)There are several NOCs that violate the current Olympic Charter, but are still permitted to compete under a grandfather clause (e.g. Hong Kong, Bermuda, Guam, Aruba), so I wouldn't use that as a reliable source that "proves" a 1:1 correspondence between NOCs and sovereign nations. Perhaps something about Ireland is available in an old issue of the IOC's Olympic Review (search here for online copies.) — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 21:50, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Read [1] - the OCI talks about being formed in 1922 (the date the Irish Free State was formed) and Ireland "as an independent nation" participating at the Games - obviously refers to the 26-county state and not the whole island. Mooretwin (talk) 21:53, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.olympicsport.ie/about/3019-presidents-welcome.html "The mission of the Olympic Council of Ireland (OCI) is to develop and protect the Olympic Movement on the island of Ireland, in accordance with the International Olympic Committee’s guiding document - the Olympic Charter." The Olympic Movement on the island of Ireland . That is why there is a conflict within article , the remits of both olympic serve Nothern Ireland . I am not agrueing that team GB doesnt represent NI , as it does , my point is Ireland at the Olympics represents the whole island not only those from the Republic/with Irish passports . It is there for inaccurate to say , which is my point ,"The team now represents the Republic of IrelandMurry1975 (talk) 22:00, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Article 28(3) of the Olympic Charter: "The NOCs have the exclusive authority for the representation of their respective countries at the Olympic Games and at the regional, continental or world multi-sports competitions patronised by the IOC." Northern Ireland is part of the UK and therefore under the British Olympic Council and therefore cannot also be under the Olympic Council of Ireland. Mooretwin (talk) 23:01, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/ISS/ISS2201/ISS2201d.pdf here it cites British passport holders who were boxers had to box for Ireland and could not box for team GB .Murry1975 (talk) 22:11, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's because the Irish boxing governing body is an all-Ireland one and affiliated to the ROI Olympic committee - same with other all-Ireland sports. They're still representing the Republic of Ireland, though. Similar to the Republic of Ireland football team, for which players for NI are eligible, but that doesn't make it an all-Ireland team. Mooretwin (talk) 23:05, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But so is athelics , hockey , golf and more yet some play for Team GB. The fact that NI footballers play for a ROI team , they use Irish passport , the link above shows British passport holders representing Ireland . POINT there is NO "ROI Olympic committee" its the Olympic Council of Ireland , who as is pointed out in the article and here , see themselves as representing the whole island . The point of removing the line , due to the conflict in the article , is that we should find a more accurate way of describing it . I do not deny that Team GB also represents NI but to state the OCI only represent the Republic is not accurate , we need a way of phrasing what actually occurs .Murry1975 (talk) 23:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Each sport is different. (And I think there is a separate NI athletics body.) It may call itself the Olympic Council of "Ireland", but it is only the Olympic council for the Republic. Northern Ireland is part of the UK. It's not rocket science. The article already explains that athletes from NI particiate on the ROI team, so there's no need to change the article. Mooretwin (talk) 08:51, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Right Mooretwin , this getting silly from you , I have given links and examples to the OCI being responsible for Olympics on the island yet you keep saying its only the republic and those with Irish passports , I again showed otherwise . But again you come up with no infornation to state IT DOES NOT represent the island as I said this is why I deleted it due to conflict in the article . Now you put emphisis again on "IRELAND" in the OCI , and this I think is your point . That you are claiming it is against your view on what "Ireland" means . The fact that the OCI claim to represent the whole island is probably against your own view aswell , but we are not here to state our own views, we are here to edit and improve , leading to people who read the articles learning from them , not someones view or preception of what is , has or does happen . NI is part of the UK , and represented in Team GB , but also in the OCI team , its , as you put it not rocket science .Murry1975 (talk) 09:08, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Historical Dictionary of the Olympic Movement: "Ireland formed a National Olympic Committee in 1922, shortly after it became independent of Great Britain ... Ireland first competed as a separate state in the 1924 Olympic Games ...". Clearly this refers to "Ireland" as the 26-county republic, not the 32-county island. Islands aren't represented at the Olympics. Mooretwin (talk) 09:13, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The "Ireland" Olympic team uses the Republic of Ireland flag and anthem. Mooretwin (talk) 09:13, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Your links and examples are mainly this Hickey character attempting to assert that the Republic's Olympic council covers the whole island. This isn't possible, because NI is part of the UK and comes under the UK's Olympic council. Yes, NI athletes may compete for the Republic but that is not the same as there being an all-Ireland team. Such a team is not possible because teams represent states (or political jurisdictions) and each Olympic council has exclusive authority over its territory, so the OCI cannot also have authority over NI, which is part of the UK. I've never said it is only those with Irish passports. This is nothing to do with my views. You accept that "NI is part of the UK , and represented in Team GB" - therefore it is not possible under the Olympic Charter for the OCI to have jurisdiction over NI. NI athletes compete for the OCI team, but that is not the same thing. Mooretwin (talk) 09:19, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.olympicsport.ie/about/3019-presidents-welcome.html (agian - sigh) "The mission of the Olympic Council of Ireland (OCI) is to develop and protect the Olympic Movement on the island of Ireland" . This shows again from the OCI the words ISLAND OF IRELAND . And on point of flag and anthem when the IRFU play home games in the republic they too use the flag and anthem , joined with the IRFU flag and "Irelands Call" , also the GAA who again is an all-island body too use the flag and anthem .Murry1975 (talk) 09:17, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's a primary source and the personal view of the Hickey character. Re. flag and anthem, the Olympic movement is a movement of states/political jurisdictions, and those are the flags and anthems used. Teams cannot and do not represent geographical entities. Mooretwin (talk) 09:21, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Right only one thing left , prove that the OCI does not represent the island and therefore only the republic . I will use the statement on a website affiliated to the IOC , ie the OCI one to prove it does now in the best terms of Wikipedia , show Proof not opinions .Murry1975 (talk) 09:33, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's already been done. The Olympic Charter says NOCs can only represent states and that each NOC has exclusive jurisdiction over its country. Incidentally, the row over a British Olympic football team involves Northern Ireland. If the "Ireland" Olympic team was an all-Ireland one, then Northern Ireland could not be part of the "GB" team. Mooretwin (talk) 09:45, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That does not prove the OCI do not represent the whole island .Here you go "According to the International Olympic Committee's existing charter, the Olympic Council of Ireland represents the whole island of Ireland " from http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/olympics_2004/olympics_2012/3433557.stm .

The IOC existing charter the OCI REPRESENTS THE WHOLE ISLAND OF IRELAND . Murry1975 (talk) 09:50, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's wrong. The IOC charter says nothing of the sort. Quite the opposite. I've already explained that it's not possible for the OCI to represent the whole island. Mooretwin (talk) 10:15, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Then the BBC lie ? And the article is fake ? Murry1975 (talk) 10:31, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As for flag , emblem and anthem , according to the charter , "adopted by an NOC for use in relation to its activities ,including the Olympic games ,shall be subject to the approval of the IOC Executive Board". So as long as the IOC approves them they can be used .Murry1975 (talk) 10:02, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That'll be from the same IOC Charter that says NOCs represent states, and that each NOC has exclusive jurisdiction! Mooretwin (talk) 10:17, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Your not proving a point , the fact that you say "exclusive jurisdiction" yet acknowledge NI representives on OCI teams is a contradiction and against IOC charter then . Murry1975 (talk) 10:23, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nonsense. NI athletes competing for the ROI team is not the same as the ROI team representing all of Ireland. Just like NI footballers playing for the ROI football team doesn't mean the ROI football team represents all Ireland. Or NI people having ROI passports doesn't mean the ROI passport is an all-Ireland one. etc etc. Mooretwin (talk) 11:35, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Here you go , I got this off of the OCI ,from Memorandum and Articles of Association.

Memorandum:

2 (g) To function as the Olympic Representative Body for all National Sports Federations in Ireland and as such to be the only person, organisation or body empowered to enter eligible competitors in the Olympic Games and at the regional, continental or world multi-sports competitions patronised by the International Olympic Committee as the representatives of Ireland.

Articles:

1 Definitions

Ireland: The Island of Ireland

6.1 The Council has the exclusive powers for the representation of Ireland at the Olympic Games and at the regional, continental or world multi-sports competitions patronised by the IOC and shall constitute, organise and lead the delegation from Ireland at these events. In addition the Council is obliged to participate in the Games of the Olympiad by sending athletes (Rule 31.3)

Now thats the Memorandum and Articles of Association that is submitted to the IOC in accordance with the Chater regarding NOC's . So that ends the dicussion on whether they represent the island or state . Now how to phrase it in the article or even if we need to , just leaveing oout the removed line might suffice .Murry1975 (talk) 11:54, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Primary source. The OCI is clearly an irredentist organisation. Mooretwin (talk) 20:49, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Really ? I also showed you a BBC article - not primary source and you dismissed it aswell . At this stage I am giving up on showing you points . It stays as is now . It has been shown they have a IOC remit for the island not otherwise . Murry1975 (talk) 21:28, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The BBC article was clearly wrong. It said the Olympic Charter said that the IOC represented all of Ireland. The Olympic Charter says nothing of the sort. The "Ireland" Olympic team uses the ROI flag and anthem: it is an ROI team. NI is part of the UK and represented by the GB&NI team. Mooretwin (talk) 09:12, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mooretwin again , you state that it is a ROI team , yet you give no proof . This was the conflict within the article , the OCI are based on all-island associate member , such as rowing , athetlics and more, most older that the division of the island . Team GB , represents GB and NI , but based on the articles os association (http://www.olympicsport.ie/) and further evidence (that you ignore) from the BBC , and the NOC article in the Olympic Charter (that you misquote) it shows that NI is also covered by the OCI .As I have shown you examples which you ignore ( oddly you point out the fact that the association is all-island but not the representation) . So your point is the association is all-island yet the association is not all-island at the Olympics as NI is part of Team GB only yet NI athelets can compete for OCI team but are not then Northern Irish ? The OCI team is all-island , and team GB represent NI are both established facts that I have shown you .Murry1975 (talk) 12:42, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In what way have I misquoted "the NOC article in the Olympic Charter", and how does it demonstrate that the "Ireland" team represents the island of Ireland? What does "oddly you point out the fact that the association is all-island but not the representation" mean? What does "So your point is the association is all-island yet the association is not all-island at the Olympics" mean? What does "as NI is part of Team GB only yet NI athelets can compete for OCI team but are not then Northern Irish" mean? "The OCI team is all-island , and team GB represent NI are both established facts" - can't be as only one NOC can have jurisdiction over one area. Mooretwin (talk) 21:11, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you say only one NOC can have jurisdiction over one area? Puerto Rican athletes can compete for Puerto Rico or the United States—they have a choice. Similarly, until last year, athletes from the Netherlands Antilles could compete under that flag, or for the Netherlands under the kingdom's flag. (Now they have no choice, and must compete for the Netherlands team.) — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 21:24, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

To Mooretwin, I'll repeat a comment I made above: The current version of the Olympic Charter should not be taken as gospel to describe the status of all 204 NOCs. An obvious example is that many territories (i.e. non-sovereign states) have a NOC that is allowed to continue, presumably under some unstated grandfather clause. Examples are Puerto Rico, Hong Kong, Bermuda, and Aruba. But the Charter does prohibit the creation of new NOCs under the current criteria—which is why Macau does not compete at the Olympic Games, despite having the same political status as Hong Kong, and why Curaçao cannot compete as a successor to the NOC of the Netherlands Antilles which dissolved last year. In any case, it is possible, if not likely, that the OCI also has a grandfathered arrangement that conflicts with the current Charter. We don't know (I haven't seen a source that says one way or another), but my point is that we cannot rely on the current wording of the Olympic Charter document to assume anything about the OCI's mandate, which was set long ago. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:27, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The territories like Puerto Rico, Hong Kong, etc., are all distinct political entities - they are not merely geographic entities like Ireland is. Re a "grandfathered arrangment" in relation to the OCI - since the OCI was founded to represent the Irish Free State, such an arrangement could not then be taken to mean that it actually represents all of Ireland. Mooretwin (talk) 21:11, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Some more relevant material:

Gapes, Mike. HC Paper 147-II House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee: Overseas Territories, Volume II. The Stationery Office. p. 72. ISBN 9780215521507. Retrieved 30 September 2011. discusses precisely the grandfathering rule for dependencies which Andrwsc mentions. The rule came into force in 1996.
Apparently, the Palestine Olympic Committee joined the IOC in 1995.
The Wayback Machine has this selfsame 1996 Olympic Charter, including Chapter 4 The National Olympic Committees (NOCs)
HL Deb 21 October 2004 vol 665 c99WA The longstanding practice relating to athletes in Northern Ireland who qualify for participation at the Olympic Games is that an athlete born in Northern Ireland who qualifies for participation at the Olympic Games and who holds a UK passport, may opt for selection by either Team GB or Ireland. The British Olympic Association (BOA) and the Olympic Council for Ireland (OCI) have recently confirmed this agreement.
HC Deb 02 February 2004 vol 417 c719W The London 2012 Olympic bid team included Windsor Park as a proposed venue for preliminary rounds of the Olympic football tournament, should the London bid be successful. It is recognised that Windsor Park would require substantial upgrading if it is to host such fixtures but this can be assessed in detail when the outcome of the bid is known and in the context of the outcomes of a study now being commissioned to establish if a National Stadium in Northern Ireland is a viable option.

Mooretwin, it is true that an all-Ireland OCI team would be prohibited under the current charter, and could not have come under the dependency clause that was grandfathered in 1996. However, it might conceivably have come under some other grandfathered clause. Unless you can show that all versions of the Olympic Charter since 1922 have explicitly prohibited such jiggery-pokery, your reliance on a single primary source is not convincing. I don't say I believe you are wrong; rather, you have not proved your case. It seems to me that the crucial period is 1952–6, given the information about the official name which I have outlined in a previous section of this talk page. It is conceivable that Lord Killanin c.1954 persuade Avery Brundage to give the OCI some kind of rights over Northern Ireland, which have survived subsequent revisions to the IOC charter. I do not say it is probable, merely that it is compatible with the sources presented on this Talk page. Clearly, there is some incorrect information in the 2004 news report, but that does not mean they are entirely worthless. Perhaps they was made up out of whole cloth by the reporters or their sources; more likely there was a kernel of truth distorted by misrepresentation and/or misunderstanding. jnestorius^(talk) 22:23, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent references, Jnestorius! I spent some time earlier today browsing the online scans of the IOC's own newsletter, Olympic Review, which often includes meeting minutes. I did not find anything yet with respect to Ireland, but feel free to browse yourself at http://www.la84foundation.org/OlympicInformationCenter/OlympicReview/1952/ (and similar URLs for other years) if you wish. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 22:49, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Andrewsc, you ask: "Why do you say only one NOC can have jurisdiction over one area?". The answer is because that is what the IOC Charter says. You suggest that "Puerto Rican athletes can compete for Puerto Rico or the United States—they have a choice" - so are you then suggesting that the United States team is actually a combined Puerto Rico/United States team; or that the Puerto Rico team is a combine Puerto Rico/United States team? Of course not. So the fact that athletes from one NOC may also compete for another NOC does not mean that either NOC has jurisdiction over the other. Mooretwin (talk) 13:23, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, I'm suggesting that "jursidiction" seems to be more related to citizenship (passports) than to geographic regions or to political boundaries. Wouldn't you agree that's the case for Ireland also? And my user name is not "Andrewsc". — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 15:50, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure I understand. The ROI gives out ROI passports. There are no all-Ireland passports. UK passports relate to NI. So if the Olympic NOCs relate to passports, then that would support the view that the team is an ROI team. Mooretwin (talk) 20:42, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Above articles show British passport holders representing Ireland at the Olympics , so whatis the point you are trying to make here ?Murry1975 (talk) 08:52, 3 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The point is that NOC representation is sometimes a complex issue, certainly for the NOCs of non-sovereign dependencies, and certainly for Ireland (for different reasons, of course). That complexity is why a simple statement like "The team now represents the Republic of Ireland" is inappropriate for the lede of this article. It causes confusion, and is unnecessary because the prose text later in the article describes the real situation very well. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 21:09, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how that point follows on from the previous point about passports. Regarding the alleged inappropriateness of the statement "The team now represents the Republic of Ireland" - disagree completely that it causes confusion. Quite the opposite: it is designed to avoid confusion. The confusion is caused by the fact that the "Ireland" team selects athletest on an all-island basis (thus giving the impression that the team represents the whole island). Hence the need to clarify. Mooretwin (talk) 21:25, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"The confusion is caused by the fact that the "Ireland" team selects athletes on an all-island basis (thus giving the impression that the team represents the whole island). Hence the need to clarify" , so by this statement the team is all-island? If it is not how do OCI select athletes from NI ? Dont qoute the FAI and selection of footballers from NI as this falls under FIFA qaulification rules and the fact that 4 teams from the UK regulary compete to qualify for the Olympics is another issue . Most sports bodies are all-island and this is represented through the OCI . Murry1975 (talk) 08:52, 3 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, most sports are all-island organised, and are affiliated to the OCI. We know that. But that doesn't mean that the OCI team is an all-Ireland representative team. It is an ROI team which selects some athletes from NI. NI is part of the UK and under the jurisdiction of the BOA. Your attempt to dismiss the analogy with the ROI football team simply doesn't work. So what if it "falls under FIFA qualification rules"? Of course it does. Mooretwin (talk) 10:35, 3 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

FIFA have different criteria for qaulification to represent national sides than the IOC .Its the only sport that the IOC have very little reign over . A team GB side could in the end , end 4 seperate home nations . The fact that its one example everyone knows of about seperate sports bodies on the island leads it to shown as an example when they are really an exception .Murry1975 (talk) 15:04, 3 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

FIFA's criteria are irrelevant. The analogy is there to help you understand the conceptual point that, just because a team includes members from both ROI and NI, it doesn't mean that it is an all-island team. The ROI football team can recruit players from all of Ireland, but it is not an all-island team. Ditto the Olympic team. Mooretwin (talk) 15:21, 3 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.tas-cas.org/d2wfiles/document/4385/5048/0/Award202071.pdf The football team also has players from Scotland , England and over time Wales , Australia , USA and more . FIFA's criteria are relevant to the organisations they oversee . The ROI can only recuit players that meet criteria . Not all players from all the island meet these criteria , so they CAN NOT recruit just anyone from all the island .Murry1975 (talk) 17:34, 3 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, I'm afraid that's not true. The ROI football team can select anyone from NI, because the ROI's citizenship laws extend extra-territorially to NI. All players in Ireland meet the criteria. Mooretwin (talk) 22:16, 3 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that Windsor Park, Belfast, was under consideration as an Olympic venue for 2012, demonstrates that Northern Ireland is within the jurisdiction of the BOC. Mooretwin (talk) 13:27, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Irish Amateur Rowing Union hold events through-out the island , are affiliated to the OCI and through team the IOC , they organised the rowing events in the Belfast regatta last month and next month have an event in Colraine , by your own logic that -quote you "demonstrates that Northern Ireland is within the jurisdiction of the" unquote you , the OCI . As I have stated before the two organisations have remits that cover NI . Murry1975 (talk) 08:52, 3 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No it doesn't. Rowing is organised on an all-Ireland basis and the governing body is affiliated to the Republic's OCI and not the UK's. Football, however, is not organised on an all-Ireland basis: there are two governing bodies on the island. If, as is claimed, the OCI is body representing all of Ireland, then both football governing bodies in NI should be affiliated to the OCI. That is not the case. Mooretwin (talk) 10:35, 3 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Rowing is organised on an all-Ireland basis and the governing body is affiliated to the Republic's OCI" except the OCI claim to represent the island not only the republic, read above .Read the article . Murry1975 (talk) 14:49, 3 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.rowingulster.com/ is this who you mean ? From here http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/index/information-and-services/home-and-community/leisure-and-recreation/sport/sports-dance-sport-to-rowing.htm click the link and you end up here http://www.iaru.ie/ the OCI affiliated team . Murry1975 (talk) 15:04, 3 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, miss read youre sentence there ,thaught you meant two rowing associatiions . Yes as I stated above football isnt all-island and based on FIFA rules and regs not IOC . The IOC charter again here breaks into using bye-laws . For mens football its under-23 ( more over through FIFA regs it in reality becomes an under 25 tournament) with 3 over age players (over23/25) where as womens is open aged . This is actually , if taken literally a breach of IOC equallity laws in the charter , not if you read the bye-laws it is allowed .Murry1975 (talk) 15:20, 3 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The age restrictions for the Olympic football tournament are irrelevant in relation to the question of the territorial jurisdiction of NOCs. Mooretwin (talk) 15:33, 3 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The age restrictions ,dealing Olympic football tournaments (plural) are an example of the bye-laws within the charter , other examples have been given regarding NOC jurisdiction , with which you were dismissive and rude towards. I thaught an example of the bye-laws might help you understand the charter better .Murry1975 (talk) 16:03, 3 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are no bye-laws in the Charter that say NOCs can represent geographic rather than political units. Mooretwin (talk) 22:16, 3 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Perspective

There are now about 5000 words written on this talk page to discuss the removal of eight words from the article itself: The team now represents the Republic of Ireland. Why is this such a big problem? Clearly, Ireland's case is somewhat complex. But I would say that the article is fairly well-written and well-sourced to describe this complex situation properly. It doesn't need a replacement for that sentence, and Murry1975 wasn't suggesting any. I think it would be an equally bad edit to insert: The team represents the island of Ireland. What does "represent" mean? Therefore, I propose we let the edit stand. Murry1975 is correct that the sentence seems to contradict subsequent statements, so the removal is appropriate. Nothing negative is implied by its absence. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 15:50, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Before commenting, could someone specify what subsequent statements "seem to contradict" the removed sentence? (As for "what does 'represent' mean?" - it means "is the team of" (e.g. the French Olympic team is the team of France). Mooretwin (talk) 20:42, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hello? Mooretwin (talk) 10:35, 3 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Here's something relevant: "until perhaps the early 1990s, the IOC purposely claimed that it recognized NOCs, not nation states". (Wei, C. X. George (2012). China-Taiwan Relations in a Global Context: Taiwan's Foreign Policy and Relations. Routledge. p. 19. ISBN 9780415600125. Retrieved 16 June 2013.)

Medallists error.

Okay, to keep this brief, the table messed up. Being a good citizen, I fixed it to the best of my ability but the Olympics is not one of my strong points. For one of you Olympic-WikiProject members, feel free to revamp it to how it suits the project. You can find the medallists table here. Cathairawr ✝ 20:55, 7 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

IOC Rules

From the IOC Olympic Charter

Rule 28.5: "The area of jurisdiction of an NOC must coincide with the limits of the country in which it is established and has its headquarters."

Rule 30.1: " In the Olympic Charter, the expression “country” means an independent State recognised by the international community"

Rule 30.2: "The name of an NOC must reflect the territorial extent and tradition of its country and shall be subject to the approval of the IOC Executive Board."

Therefore, regardless of what some Republic of Ireland politician in the Dail says, this is the Olympic team of the Republic of Ireland under IOC rules. They only get away with that third point due to the duplicitous use of the word "Ireland" to refer to the Republic. Jonto (talk) 16:55, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly the 1924–32 teams did not represent the 26-county state; arguably the later ones did not either. Wikipedia must not rely on a Wikipedia:PRIMARY source like the IOC charter. How do you explain Hong Kong at the Olympics, Puerto Rico at the Olympics, Bermuda at the Olympics, none of which is an "independent State recognised by the international community"? jnestorius^(talk) 11:28, 9 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Lead and infobox

In the lead it says the Great Britain and Ireland team represented Ireland before 1924 but in the infobox it says other related appearances Great Britain 1896–1920. Which is correct? (Fran Bosh (talk) 18:56, 2 July 2023 (UTC))[reply]

1904 Olympics

Who represented Ireland and how at the 1904 Olympiad? I haven't heard of that nor can see any medals. Raddical (talk) 12:10, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]