Talk:Iraq al-Manshiyya

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The lands of Gat

if indeed the kibbuts was established in 1941, while British authorities were in charge, how could it have possibly been established on the village lands? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sko Sko 2014 (talk • contribs) 07:32, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Very easily: they took over their land after 1948. Lots of established kibbutz did that. Huldra (talk) 22:39, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I did not tag the part which is post-1948, but the part that says it was established, in 1941,7 years earlier , while the British were in charge, on village lands. Do you understand what established means? Sko Sko 2014 (talk) 21:38, 12 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Quite. To quote from Khalidi, 1992, p. 108: "A kibbutz named Gat (130115) was established in 1941 on land that traditionally belonged to the village; it took over additional lands in 1949 after the expulsion of the villagers. Six years later, in 1954, Qiryat Gat (128113) was established on village lands; Sde Moshe (131113) was established in 1956 on village land east of the village site."

Please point out where present text is not based on present WP:RS, that is Khalidi? Huldra (talk) 21:45, 12 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What I am saying is that what Khlidi claims is dubious. In 1941, the British were in charge. A Kibbutz couldn't simply take over some other place's lands without their approval. At a minimum, we need to attribute to Khalidi the statement that the village claimed some of the Kibbutz's land were "traditionally" their , whatever that means. Sko Sko 2014 (talk) 23:11, 12 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Find some WP:RS which says that Khalidi´s writing is "dubious". Your opinion (or mine) about it does not matter: that is the way WP works. Though "traditionally belonged to" I take to mean that it was traditionally part of the jurisdiction of Iraq al-Manshiyya. Huldra (talk) 23:21, 12 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Khalidi is being a bit vague here about what happened: "traditionally belonged to" actually means that the land used to belong to the village. In the few years after the 1939 white paper, the JNF focussed its attention on land whose purchase was officially forbidden to it, and often managed to get around the rules with the aid of cooperative Arabs. The book "Between Capital and Land" by Eric Engel Tuten mentions several such cases in the vicinity of Iraq al-Manshiya, without mentioning Gat specifically. The more biased book "The Claim of Dispossession" by Arieh Avneri (p221) says that a wealthy man Abdul Rahman el-Ghazzi purchased packets of land from other Arabs then sold the consolidated tract to the JNF and that Gat was established there. Avneri says that el-Ghazzi helped the JNF circumvent the land-purchase regulations but doesn't say how. (In other cases there were false documents, fictitious middle-men, etc, just like now). Zero^talk 01:00, 13 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, then what is currently in the article needs to reflect the above. The current way it is phrased makes it sound as if Gat was unilaterally (and implicitly, illegally) established on lands that belonged to the village without their consent, rather than on land that at one point belonged to the village, but was sold to the JNF. Sko Sko 2014 (talk) 01:38, 13 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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