Talk:Ion (mythology)

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Comments

linked to the Hebrew Javan---I recall something to that effect---but what are the specific sources? Specific quotes? Of Semitic origin? Greek origin? Other? A is putting the smack down (talk) 09:19, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ion, Iaon, Iaones, and *Iawon

Could we please discuss this here and not on my user talk page?

It seems the sources connecting all of the variants above, not to mention Javan and Yona, are out there, but they need to be presented more coherently:

Dionysius Periegetes ver. 416 mentions a river in Arcadia called Iaon. This river "Iaon" is also alluded to in Hesiod's Hymns of Callimachus, Hymn to Jupiter 22. This river Iaon is also connected to the earlier Ionian name by a secondary source, The Early Ionians, 1966, George Huxley, p. 166. I can't find any reference to Hesiod using the spelling Iaon in Catalogue of Women.
Yona should be linked somewhere in this article.
The form in Homer is Iaones, rather than Iaon. GuitarDudeness' version seems to obscure that point, but it should be corrected.

Thanks, Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 15:08, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, here it is four days later, and not one of these three points that belong in the article has been addressed yet, let alone even acknowledged by anyone else here on the talk page. Normally I would be bold and add them to the article myself, but given the level of contention that has arisen on this subject I would like some feedback from the other editors on how best to proceed with adding this information and especially straightening out the mess in the article regarding the third bullet point listed above. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 12:28, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yona could be included in a 'see also' section. Meseems that my latest edits deal with the rest of your points (Hesiod's Iaona is accusative of Iaon; Homer's Iaones is a variant of Iones). --Omnipaedista (talk) 17:18, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

OK, so since this is the page of 'Ion' I wanted to point out the evolution of the name as it is relevant, and not pointless speculation, for the association between Ion and Javan . The name in epic poetry appears as Ιάον (see my reference to Hesiod's Fr.20a.23 where the accusative Ιάονα appears). Looking in any Greek Grammar we see that αο change into ω by contraction. This leads to Ιάον (Ionic/epic form) change into the later standard Attic form Ίων. This is referenced in the 'Javan' page when referring to the ethnonym: first Iáwones then Iáones then Iōnes. The ethonym derives from the Iawan name so obviously this too went through these same changes. If references were found to back the ethnonym then the same applies here. This is crucial to make the assertion that Javan (Iawan) can be equated with Ion (Iawon), and so I believe this information should the on this article for easy reference. If this is the wrong place for it to be in, or the phrase should be re-written, then please tell me where it should be. --GuitarDudeness /talk/ 16:16, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There are already several references explicitly equating Ion with Javan, beginning from Flavius Josephus all the way up to present scholarship. However we ought not (and indeed may not) invent our own novel arguments why this should be so; we must strictly make use of the arguments that already appear in print. As it says in WP:SYNTH (q.v.), we must be careful to refrain from advancing even the slightest claim that does not explicitly appear in any reference. Regards, Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 18:12, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

For the record accusative Ἰάονα leads to nominative *Ἰάων not *Ἰάον. However interesting the above amateur speculations may be I suggest we stick to what secondary sources say. If GuitarDudenessa does not provide a proper citation for his/her etymological claims within a couple of days, I will revert his/her last edit. --Omnipaedista (talk) 21:18, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Adding original quotes

I just added the original Greek quotes to clarify GuitarDudeness's point. The original version of his/her text ("...more apparent when comparing the earlier form of the name, Ιάϝον "Iáwon", which, with the loss of the digamma, later became Ιάον "Iáon", as seen in epic poetry. Hesiod, Catalogue of Women fr. 10(a)") had significant shortcomings. It contained a wholly mistaken reconstruction (s/he wrote *Ἰάον instead of *Ἰάων) and it seemed to be speculation from primary sources, i.e. improper synthesis. I have added a secondary source to the Javan article and Til Eulenspiegel has added a secondary source to this article (Brown 2005). --Omnipaedista (talk) 09:33, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]