Talk:Ioannina

Civil war

The area was occupied by the British sometime around the civil war post WW2. There might be some information in this regard to flesh out the modern history section. I wouldn't know where to start for sources on that though Zindor (talk) 00:46, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

No, it wasn't. German occupation was followed by Greek resistance control (EDES resistance group then ELAS resistance) and finally under Greek government forces. Alexikoua (talk) 20:57, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Alexikoua, there might have been power-play between EDES and the British but they were there in number and assuming control. You may discover this in Greek sources; I unfortunately have this on an un-citable but good first hand account. Zindor (talk) 22:17, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Just to re-factor my point there, that was more a comment in general, it's my understanding that the numbers in Ioaninna itself weren't the levels one might expect, a relatively small number of British but tasked with the same expectation of maintaining British interest/control, and re-supplied at long intervals from Athens. I'm simply suggesting research into this might generate some more information for the article. Regards, Zindor (talk) 23:31, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Adding Albanian name to the lede

Ioannina has About 125.000 results at Google books (1) Janina has 792.000 results (2) And "Janina Greece" has 160.000 results. (3) The Albanian name is clearly needed in the lede. AlexBachmann (talk) 19:53, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

If no one has something against it, I'll add the name in near future. AlexBachmann (talk) 20:07, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

We've been over this. WP:IDHT. Khirurg (talk) 22:01, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

So you're constantly ignoring WP:NC. Just think about it, "Janina" has more results than the Greek version. One time you're saying the name requires to be used by 10 % of sources, and now this. I'll bring it to the Noticeboard of the Admins if you continue doing this, also stop your disruptive editing and discuss first until consensus is reached. Stop your POV. If you don't like the Albanian names in Epirus, you can say goodbye to the Greek ones in Albania. Double standards. AlexBachmann (talk) 23:19, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Also, I'd like to hear the statement of @Alexikoua in this case. AlexBachmann (talk) 23:32, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Jannina is one of the transliterations in demotic Greek: Yannena and Yannina is the most correct way to spell it in English (though in German this would be Jannina = from demotic Greek Γιάννενα). I call the city that way too as most Greek speakers do. Yannena is already in lead. It's not the Albanian form which happens to be quite similar in spelling.Alexikoua (talk) 23:53, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

You can not use that as an excuse. Alone "Yannena" has only about 350 results on Google books. And you want to tell me that the alternate spelling of an alternate name has more than 100.000 results? Please, don' take it too far. Also, I think the Albanian form is widely used due to the fact that Ali Pasha was Albanian and the sources prefer the Albanian name. So, does the whole thing fit now? More than 10% of the sources (>100% actually). As you wanted. AlexBachmann (talk) 00:35, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Pardon me but the url you offered above [[1]] isn't a real argument for the Albanian name. There is not a single source that uses the Albanian form in the entire first page. Actually the first 2 books you mention in your list [[2]] and [[3]] are simply written by authors "Janina Fisher and Renee". There is no reference to this city at all.Alexikoua (talk) 02:58, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

@Alexikoua: Pardon me but the url you offered above 23 isn't a real argument for the Albanian name. There is not a single source that uses the Albanian form in the entire first page. Are you trying to make a joke? The first one says If Janina were lost, the whole Greek insurrection..., the second one the pachaship of Janina, etc. Let's not lose all sense of integrity.

That said, there are plenty of results that are not in reference to the city. @AlexBachmann maybe you could check some more specific searches which only include references to the town itself? Çerçok (talk) 19:09, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

This url "Janina Greece" (3) has (still) more than 100.000 results and almost only refer to the city. I am optimistic reaching consensus. AlexBachmann (talk) 19:44, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Please, search for "Janina Greece". That is also the reason why I also searched for this one. Still has more results than "Ioannina" and therefore more than 10%. I think you have to accept it and not trying to find more and more excuses. AlexBachmann (talk) 17:20, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

The third URL. AlexBachmann (talk) 17:23, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

The quality of your urls are extremely low and your arguments far too weak (mostly 19th century crap), but still the links you offer use the Yannina spelling. Lets make a serious search on googlescholar in post-2000 English scholarship:

• Janina: [[4]] 3,810 vs
• Ioannina 28,000 [[5]],
• and there is Giannina (a more correct spelling compared to Janina) [[6]] 9,660.

"Yannena" is already at the lead no need to include the similar spellings. By the way if you want to present "Janina" as an Albanian name in those search your arguments are not strong at all. Alexikoua (talk) 03:17, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Alex, why are you using the Greek version of a site? Botushali (talk) 04:30, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Alexikoua, your search still shows that <10% uses Janina. In addition to that, can you show me the quote in WP:NC that sources in the 19th/20th that use an alternate name are not accepted? And Othon I, I live in Germany, neither is "Janina" official here nor in English (obviously). Please, there is almost no other language that uses the name "Janina" than Albanian. Please don't come with more excuses. AlexBachmann (talk) 20:21, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Also Alexikoua, the link that you've provided for Giannina, almost no single source in the first page refers to the city. Apart from that, can you source that Janina is an alternate spelling of Yannina? What you do all the time is hearsay. Again, it is no secret that Ali Pasha of Tepelene was Albanian, that is the reason why so many sources use the Albanian name and we all know that. AlexBachmann (talk) 20:27, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

This URL (4) shows that "Janina Greece" has 21.200 results from the period 2000-now. I think we all can now agree that the Albanian name is needed in the lede. AlexBachmann (talk) 22:46, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

 Comment: It is indeed a common issue that editors with limited experience fail to understand that when searching for a term in GS should be taken with careful consideration because it could possibly cause friction and confusion. The word "Janina" is also the spelling of the city in various Germanic languages just for the record. Best Othon I (talk) 08:09, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

AlexBach: I tell you for the n-inth time: "Jan(n)ina" is used in various languages, even a Greek transliteration uses this form which is the same spelling as Yan(n)ina (also in German Janina is spelled that same way). It would be complete fringe to insist that those hits (more than 90% of them) refer to an Albanian name. Also per wp:NC that's already part of the name section. I see no reason why you still insist to manipulate wp:NC.Alexikoua (talk) 03:04, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

By the way [[7]] Janinë which is an (exclusively) Albanian form indeed receives just ... 24 hits, and even most of those works are in Albanian. Alexikoua (talk) 03:09, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Janinë is the indefinte Albanian form that is not widely used in books due to the untypeable "ë". The correct definte form is Janina. In Germany, I've never seen anyone using "Janina" for "Ioannina". Please source your claims. For the third time, you can't tell me that an alternate spelling of an alternate name has over 20.000 results while the most common "Yan(n)ina" has below 1.000 results. A significant part of the books use the term "Janina" in connection with Ali Pasha of Tepelene, there's no doubt that they're not refering to the Albanian one. AlexBachmann (talk) 18:01, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Manipulating? That is a little argumentative, isn't it? I am just following WP:NC while you are doing everything to not include that Alb. name in the lede. AlexBachmann (talk) 18:06, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Because it shouldn't be included. I am surprised nobody mentioned so far that Janina is also the name the city received during Ottoman times, see Janina vilayet. User AlexBachmann will require more sophisticated searching methods to prove that most of those thousands of results when searching Janina refer to the Albanian name of the city or to the city itself in the first place. Super Ψ Dro 22:27, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

The Turkish name for the vilayet is "Yanya". Janina is still the Albanian form. And if you look on the URL that I've provided, you'll see that almost no book refers to the vilayet. The most books refer to Ali Pasha or Jews. AlexBachmann (talk) 22:14, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

"Ioannina" from the period 2000-now hits 68.100 results (4). "Janina Greece" from the period 2000-now excluding the words "Ioannina" and "vilayet" hits 8.390 results (5). More than 10%. I think it's enough now. AlexBachmann (talk) 22:37, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

@AlexBachmann: Janina is already in the name section and as SD pointed it's just the Albanian name. I'm still trying to understand what's your goal here.Alexikoua (talk) 02:43, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Also, since you claim that you live in German, die "Stadt Jan(n)ina" refers to the German name of the city [[8]][[9]].Alexikoua (talk) 03:15, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

I do live in Germany. Are you serious about those 200 results using Jan(n)ina? Even the German Wikipedia uses Ioannina and describes Janina as Albanian. A name has to be in the lede if more than 10% of the sources use it. Nothing more, nothing less. AlexBachmann (talk) 19:27, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

"Stadt Ioannina" (6) has by the way 3.520 results. AlexBachmann (talk) 19:28, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

A name has to be in the lede if more than 10% of the sources use it. really? Read this from wp:ncgn: Alternatively, all alternative names can be listed and explained in a "Names" or "Etymology" section immediately following the lead, or a special paragraph of the lead. Don't change the guidelines according to your POV again please, Janina is also used in vernacular/demotic Greek [[10]] so stop falsifying information here.Alexikoua (talk) 02:55, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

I hope you know what "Alternatively" and "can" means? And I hope you don't take Google Translate as a serious source. "Stadt Ioannina" has more than 10x hits.

Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or that is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted. (WP:NCGN)

My point still stands. An alternate spelling of an alternate can not have more results than the most common alternate (Demotic) one. AlexBachmann (talk) 20:34, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

It's just double standarts. No Albanian names in Greece, but bomb Albanian ledes with Greek names. AlexBachmann (talk) 18:52, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

No "double standards", there is no Albanian community there. You are deep in WP:IDHT territory at this point. Khirurg (talk) 19:36, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Your are the one ignoring facts. There is no Albanian community. In case you somehow haven't noticed, this whole discussion is about the 10% sources using "Janina". Read the whole discussion before reverting AlexBachmann (talk) 19:40, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Literally no one who has participated in this discussion agrees with you. Your searches are incompetently conducted. You are just repeating the same incorrect things over and over. Enough already. Khirurg (talk) 19:49, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Hmmm, why doesn't anyone agree here? Because you don't want to, even if my points were 100% accurate. Please be more precise, what points do you think are incorrect? You threats do not scare anyone. I think we should let an admin decide, shouldn't we? AlexBachmann (talk) 20:08, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

It's already been explained to you multiple times by multiple editors why your Google searches are incorrect. Yet each time you ignore it and ask "what's wrong with my searches". Khirurg (talk) 00:08, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

You even fail sourcing "Janina" being a Demotic form of the Greek name. I excluded the term "Vilayet" and even "Ioannina" and it still has more than 10%. AlexBachmann (talk) 19:13, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

There are many transliteration schemes for the Greek names Ιωάννινα, Γιάννενα, and Γιάννινα, giving rise to many variants. Furthermore, the form Janina is also found in South Slavic languages; such as Serbian (Јањина) and Macedonian (Јанина). From the Administrative Subdivisions of Countries: A Comprehensive World Reference, 1900 through 1998 (2010) [1999] by Gwillim Law, we read on page 153:

Other names of subdivisions: These names are officially spelled with the Greek alphabet. There are many transliteration schemes, giving rise to many variant names. For English names, the spellings that are most often met in literature or news reports are used here. [...] Ioannina: Ianina (French-variant); Janina (Serbian); Jannina, Yanina, Yannina (variants)

Also, i don't think Ali Pasha's ethnicity is a valid argument in this discussion, considering that he used Greek as the language of his court, diplomatic communication, and formal correspondence. From The Muslim Bonaparte: Diplomacy and Orientalism in Ali Pasha's Greece (1999) by Katherine E. Fleming, we read on page 63:

Language was a central defining element in the identity of Ali, of his government, and of the district in general. Ali's natal tongue was Albanian, but he used Greek as the language of his court. The eighteenth-century phenomenon of Albanians and Greeks exchanging languages was fairly common. All diplomatic business was conducted in Greek, and much formal correspondence was written in Greek. There are many reports that even when Ali employed Albanian or Turkish in his personal correspondence, he wrote in the Greek alphabet, transliterating whatever tongue he was using into the alphabet most familiar to him. Ottoman, the formal bureaucratic language of the government in Istanbul, was entirely supplanted by Greek in Ali's lands.

Regardless, the Albanian variants are already included under § Name; in line with MOS:ALTNAME § Separate section usage and WP:PLACE § General guidelines. Demetrios1993 (talk) 01:03, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Excellent presentation Demetrios.Alexikoua (talk) 16:28, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

We all do know that Serbian uses the Cyrillic script, don't we? Aside from that it would be extraordinary to refer to a Slavic name in an English source. It definitely is a valid argument using his (Albanian) origin. Just because he used Greek in his court due to the large Greek population of his Pashalik. Do you think his Pashalik would have held one week if he selected Albanian as the only official language? What do you think are those 8.300 results refering to? Some invented name? Or an alternate spelling of an alternate (Demotic, ?) name while the most common Demotic form has below 1.000 hits? AlexBachmann (talk) 22:25, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

A deeper research on the sources you are pointing refer in fact the Greek demotic spelling of the city.Alexikoua (talk) 03:36, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

For example: ...? AlexBachmann (talk) 21:24, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Hmmm is that the link [[11]] you claim that Janina refers to the Albanian name in all works that mention it?Alexikoua (talk) 03:55, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

That's incorrect. It is this [4] link. As I said, this search exludes the terms "vilayet" and the standard "Ioannina". AlexBachmann (talk) 19:07, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

I would like to hear if you agree or disagree on this point with me. AlexBachmann (talk) 23:25, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

You really believe that based on those books [[12]] the reference to Janina refers to the Albanian name? In fact it's not. The demotic Greek form also uses the same spelling as several editors are trying to explain to you.Alexikoua (talk) 03:31, 13 November 2022 (UTC)