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Archive 1

Fair use rationale for Image:Inverness Caledonian Thistle logo.gif

Image:Inverness Caledonian Thistle logo.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 07:52, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Attendances

Would someone please tidy up the attendances section? Some joker has vandalised it by suggesting that record attendances are all two-figure numbers.

nb- I don't know the exact figures, but the record attendances at Caledonian Stadium will be in the vicinity of 6000-7000. A bit of scouting on the club's page should confirm.

Fair use rationale for Image:Inverness Caledonian Thistle logo.gif

Image:Inverness Caledonian Thistle logo.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 19:08, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

History

With regard to the name change to Inverness Caledonian Thistle was this at the request of the council? I thought there was a ballot of fans at one of the games as to what the name should change to? Did the council not only suggest that Inverness should be included in the team name?

--DaveDargo (talk) 14:20, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

There was a ballot, I think in 2001, to ask fans whether they wanted the club to change its name to Inverness City. As for the original change, adding "Inverness" to the club's name, I always understood that was at the council's request.EmmaICT (talk) 23:52, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Famous Players?

I'm really not happy with the "Famous Players" section. Who decides which players go in it and under what criteria? It only ever seems to contain the names of players who are currently in the news for some reason. For instance, just now it lists Brian Kerr, which is ridiculous as he has been at the club for less than a month and has not yet had time to build up a reputation at ICT. Would it not be better to change this to "Notable Players" and only include players who have played a significant role at the club? This could include long-standing players, scorers of important goals, players who are notable because of their connection with Caley Thistle etc.

EmmaICT (talk) 23:06, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Managers

Adding John Hughes to the list of managers. Have removed Donald Park's caretaker stint to leave the list as permanent appointments only.

Sergei Baltacha's nationality should be Ukrainian, not Soviet.

Stupid grammar error

Inverness Caledonian Thistle Football Club is a professional football club based in Inverness, Scotland, which plays in the Scottish Championship.

This sentence implies that Inverness, Scotland plays in the Scottish Championship. In fact, Inverness Caledonian Thistle Football Club does that. I reworded the sentence to avoid this problem, only to find it reverted twice, once by someone who claimed it was "not an improvement", and a second time by someone who thinks the wording above is not ambiguous.

Firstly, it is ambiguous. That is easy to see.

Secondly, you should revert if an edit clearly makes the article worse. You should not revert if you simply don't understand it, or even if you merely feel it is "not an improvement". To do so is confrontational and disruptive behaviour. 128.28.203.197 (talk) 08:18, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

A third revert, without any explanation, appears to be simple vandalism. 128.28.203.197 (talk) 08:19, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
Actually the sentence does not imply that to the point of needing a complete rewrite as you attempted and reverting an edit that changes the structure of an article from established layouts that are used in featured articles is perfectly acceptable i.e. XY F.C. is a club based in XY. I've split the sentence now to give it a better flow and bring it inline with other articles. Kosack (talk) 09:15, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

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Removal of 'Rivalries' section.

I'm using this page to explain why I've removed the 'Rivalries' section, which was recently added.

The 'Rivalries' section read like a fan's viewpoint in the match-day program or a fanzine, and includes subjective opinion as fact.
Also "both teams came up from the Highland League" is incorrect. ICT never played in the Highland League, as they were only formed in 1994.

There is no new information added (in the paragraphs about the Ross County and Aberdeen rivalries) that isn't already in the Highland derby and North derby dedicated Wikipedia pages.

The notion that Inverness are regarded as the bigger team is also very dubious and obviously a subjective viewpoint! As an Inverness CT fan, it pains me to admit that I know plenty of 'southern' football supporters, with no emotional investment in the Highland clubs, who as neutrals, actually view County as the 'bigger' club...citing numerous reasons:

Ross County are currently playing in a higher league, have a better team. Plus, they sell more season tickets, have higher average crowds and have a better stadium in a more central, convenient location to the town centre pubs! They also have superior training facilities with the Highland Football Academy adjoined to the ground. Few fans outwith the local area are aware that HFA is supposed to be a joint venture between County and ICT!

Also, County have a longer history, and they've never been relegated from the SPL/Premiership, while Inverness have dropped twice. They've also got sound infrastructure and solid financial footing and have excellent community relations and an extensive catchment area.

Finally, I really don't think there's any noteworthy rivalry with Elgin City. Yes, there was that 'handbags' incident in Elgin, and I'm sure a few insults have been traded on social media, but it's only the moronic, self-styled 'Young Team', who will eventually grow-up! They can't re-write history and create a rivalry that doesn't exist.

Elgin City have been around 125 years and have played ICT only twice! There's no animosity there; indeed, most ICT fans I know, would actually like to see them doing a bit better!

Those are my reasons for deleting the recently added Rivalries section, but if any Wikipedians think it merits being re-instated, I won't enter into an 'editing war'! Woodlandscaley (talk) 02:14, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:21, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:37, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Sergei Baltacha nationality

Honest to goodness @Andriyrussu: would you please stop with these constant changes. You've been informed countless times by different people that if you feel this change needs to be made then you're going to have to provide your justifications and evidence (not Transfermarkt) here. @Stevie fae Scotland, Woodlandscaley, and CoatbridgeChancellor: I'd be grateful if you would also get involved so that we can reach a consensus on this. Nothing productive is coming out of this constant edit warring, so until a consensus is reached, his nationality should remain as Soviet. Exxy (talk) 14:45, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree Exxy. MOS:FLAGS has some advice on the use of historical flags and there are guidelines at WP:FOOTY on how to consider nationality in cases where someone could legitimately claim more than one national identity such as is the case here. That would leave me to lean towards using a Soviet flag in this instance as his football nationality is Soviet, however, if a reliable source can be provided to show he is Ukrainian then it should be changed (I doubt one exists though as Baltacha considers himself multi-national[1]).


Yes I agree. His own wiki page even has him self-identify as a Soviet national. For example would we now record a Soviet player from the 60's born in eg Minsk as a Belarus International? No. CoatbridgeChancellor (talk) 16:09, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

I do not agree. MOS:FLAGS says that "Use a historical flag and associated country name when they have at least a semi-officially applicable rationale to use them. For example, in lists of Olympic medalists, the USSR flag and country name should be used for reporting before 1992, not those of the Russian Federation or the CIS.". In your example, the flag of that person should be Soviet before 1991. After 1991 it should be Belarusian. Doesn't matter what national team he represented. For example, Oleh Blokhin was a Soviet national team player for all of his career and played together with Baltacha, but never represented Ukraine. Although he represented only Soviet Union, Blokhin's nationality in Ukraine national football team page when he coached it after independence was Ukrainian. Same with Baltacha. He started coaching Inverness Caledonian Thistle in 1994. At that time, Soviet Union no longer existed. It's dissolution was proclaimed in 26 December 1991. Your source says that when he came to Ipswich Town F.C. he was a Soviet citizen. And even when he came to St Johnstone F.C. he was still a Soviet citizen. But not in 1994 when he came to Inverness Caledonian Thistle. Although some former Soviet countries still accepted Soviet passports. For example, Ukraine accepted it until 1 September 2002. But internationally Soviet citizenship was not accepted after its dissolution. His own wiki page identifies him as Soviet, but it only refers to the period before 1991.[2][3][4] Andriyrussu (talk) 17:45, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Whether or not Baltacha is a Ukrainian national (he's not) is irrelevant - as the flags listed in the Inverness Managers' section reflect nationalities with regards to football. He represented the Soviet Union internationally, NOT Ukraine.

@Andriyrussu: your editing history suggests a pro-Ukrainian 'slant' rather than an admirable fixation with ensuring that correct national flags are assigned. Why, for example, aren't you agitating to swap John Robertson's Scotland flag for that of the country with which he holds citizenship - the United Kingdom? Terry Butcher's England flag remains...I thought you'd prefer the Union Jack.

Of course, I'm being deliberately facetious to demonstrate the point that it would be ludicrous to replace the Scottish and English flags in those examples - as Scotland and England are the countries they represented in a sporting context.

The U.S.S.R. flag icon must remain.

Woodlandscaley (talk) 19:06, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

First, Baltacha's football nationality before 1991 was Soviet. Since 1991 it is Ukrainian. As a player he was Soviet until 1991. From then on he was Ukrainian. If he had never represented Soviet team but had represented only Ukraine would you consider him Soviet or Ukrainian? From your logic you would consider him Ukrainian. There are a lot of players who never played for their national teams, but they represent some country anyway.

Second, your editing history suggest a pro-Soviet and pro-communist 'slant', based on some old source and not specified as reliable according to Wikipedia, rather than an admirable fixation with ensuring that correct national flags are assigned providing RELIABLE sources. It also suggests that you consider this page as yours or of Scottish people. It is of Wikipedia. I can edit this page with the same right as you. If you want your own website, you can create it and put Soviet flags to every manager and player if you are so in love with Soviet Union.

Third, the situation with United Kingdom and its four countries is very different from Soviet Union and its 15 successor countries. Politically, the four British countries are as one, but in football they are separated. During the Soviet period, the football was united and players from different republics could only represent one country: Soviet union, not their republic. After the Soviet Union was dissolved in 1991, players could no longer represent Soviet union, but only one of the 15 successor states. This happened with Baltacha. After 1991, he had to choose to represent one of the 15 countries. The only available was Ukraine, because he had citizenship of that country, and during Soviet time he was considered as a player from the Ukrainian SSR.

Fourth, from your logic you should change every player's flag that represented Soviet Union. You should separate a football person's career in two: player and manager. A person could have been of one nationality as a player and a different nationality as a manager. For example, Valeriy Lobanovskiy was a Soviet player and manager before 1991. After 1991, he was considered a Ukrainian manager. Check pages that mention him as a Ukrainian manager after 1991: 2000–01 Vyshcha Liha, Ukraine national football team, List of FC Dynamo Kyiv managers. Look at this last list. From 1984 to 1990 Lobanovskiy is considered Soviet, but from 1997 to 2002 he is considered Ukrainian. Football nationality is not static. It can change during time.

The Ukraine flag icon must remain.

Andriyrussu (talk) 21:12, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

At this point, I genuinely don't care which version of the page is up but this edit warring has to stop. For almost two weeks it's been going on and it's got to the point where it's nonstop now. I'm almost minded to report this at WP:3RR but I'll hold fire while the discussion is ongoing - provided there are no more reverts. If no progress is made in finding a resolution, I would recommend WP:3O as it would be good to get a neutral view on this. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 21:10, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "What's on Kyiv | News | Run, Run Away". Whatson-kyiv-archive.com. Retrieved 12 July 2021.
  2. ^ "Sergei Pavlovich Baltacha". FBRef. Retrieved 12 July 2021.
  3. ^ "S. BALTACHA". Soccerway. Retrieved 12 July 2021.
  4. ^ "Sergey Baltacha". WorldFootball.net. Retrieved 12 July 2021.
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