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Archive 1Archive 2

Victor Valley

Please provide a quote from Rosenblatt's LA Times article that supports the statement "residents of the Victor Valley consider themselves separate from the IE". Also, using HTML comments to push a POV is bad form. No one can view those comments except editors, so what's the point? --TorriTorri(talk/contribs) 19:40, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

The point was for editors to see it, not to push a POV. The article doesn't say specifically that ANYONE considers themselves separate from the IE, so maybe that whole section should be removed. Otherwise, the article specifically points to questionable cities, and anyone who knows where Phelan is will understand that if Phelan is in question, the majority of the Victor Valley is also in question. I could state that I live there, but that would be "original research" and thus not necessarily encyclopedic. ;)
Also note that my comment in the infobox area was truthful about the absence of Palm Springs area. I do not see this as a problem, but worth mentioning before some other editor didn't understand why I added that, and decided to revert it.MXVN (talk) 10:24, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Bolding in the middle of the paragraph

I think that the article looks too messy with the bolding of Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario metropolitan area. Any thoughts? House1090 (talk) 23:57, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Manual of Style (text formatting)#Boldface recommends against it, and I agree. – Athaenara ✉ 01:27, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you're referring to. That guideline says that synonyms are often highlighted in the lead section, which "is the section before the table of contents and the first heading". I'm not sure why the boldface guideline incorrectly defines the lead section. --TorriTorri(talk/contribs) 07:06, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
The single phrase ("Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario metropolitan area") which I unbolded (diff) is in the intro. – Athaenara ✉ 00:28, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
Thanks Athaenara! House1090 (talk) 05:05, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
According to the bolding guideline, "synonyms are highlighted" (i.e., bolded) when they are in the intro section. Could you explain where, exactly, the MoS recommends against this use of bolding, as you have claimed? The links I provided above seem to indicate that the MoS actually does recommend the bolding that you removed. --TorriTorri(talk/contribs) 20:56, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Either way it looked messy, look at other metropolitan articles, they don't have the bolding this article had. House1090 (talk) 07:41, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

See WP:IJDLI and WP:OSE. I've already linked to the guidelines which indicate that the bolding was appropriate. Can you indicate the guideline which supports your position? --TorriTorri(talk/contribs) 19:40, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Inland Empire urban and metropolitan area?

It is indeed an urban area, the Riverside-San Bernadino urban area, from the U.S. Census Bureau. A notable source, and reliable as well. Though Torritorri mistakenly removed the phrase through her insinuation that it was a bias, it is not the case. Just that there are two definitions and arguable more, which not everyone agrees on. I will be putting the phrase back for now. However we can discuss here in order reach a consensus. 08OceanBeach SD (talk) 22:55, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

The bias I was referring to in my summary was the lack of a reference to the United States in the first paragraph of the article. Having the region simply described as in "Southern California" assumes that the reader knows what and where SoCal is, which many readers may not.
Regardless, the point I was trying to make in the limited space provided me by the edit summary is that there are no reliable sources listed actually referring to the urbanised area by the term "Inland Empire". There are numerous reliable sources, however, describing Riverside and San Bernardino County as the Inland Empire. (Note that I am not claiming that the metropolitan area is the "correct" one or anything like that; I am merely pointing out the lack of sources.) --TorriTorri(talk/contribs) 23:12, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
I better understand your point now. Forgive me for jumping to conclusions. Would it work to leave the citation there, say, for a week until someone or perhaps myself seeks out the proper source(s)? 08OceanBeach SD (talk) 23:19, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
Sure, no problem. --TorriTorri(talk/contribs) 04:35, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Infobox image

I added this image for the infobox, which Torritorri removed, calling it unsourced. I'd like some input from other folks as to its appropriateness. I think it shows the urban areas of the Inland Empire as described in the article better than the current image. And I don't understand how the current image is better sourced than the one I used. They're both created by wiki editors using government info.... Dohn joe (talk) 05:10, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Then they would both be WP:OR.  The map with the two counties might get away with "not likely to be challenged" until someone challenges it, at least that is my way of thinking.  Unscintillating (talk) 05:33, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
They're both unsourced. It is really a bias as to whether the map with the urban areas or the two county metropolitan area should be added to the article. Personally the urban area map shows more of the IE as the two county region is for the most part: empty. This article also doesnt clearly define what the Inland Empire is so its hard to have a map. It might be better to have an infobox that shows skylines of the principle cities instead that are always considered within the Inland Empire: Riverside, San Berdo, and Ontario. 08OceanBeach SD (talk) 05:38, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
That's not a bad thought. Since one of the defining characteristics of the IE is its fuzzy boundaries, having a map that's not explicitly sourced isn't a great idea. I'd agree with the photo idea. Dohn joe (talk) 06:05, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I've previously scoured the Internet searching for the government data that the image Dohn joe added claimed to be based on, but haven't found it. While I may not necessarily agree that Riverside and San Bernardino counties "are" the Inland Empire, the majority of sources currently in the article (including non-government sources, such as the Times) refer to the region in that manner. Therefore, I do not consider an image of the two counties highlighted to be original research. I have no quarrel with the skyline idea if that is what the consensus comes to. --TorriTorri(talk/contribs) 07:01, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I've added a couple of sources (and could add more) that include parts of eastern LA County (Pomona, Claremont, etc.) in the IE. Given that expansion of the verified geographical definition, I think removing the maps is an even better idea. After all, the article also says (and sources confirm) that places like Temecula (in Riverside County) and Victorville (in SB County) do not always consider themselves in the IE. Dohn joe (talk) 07:10, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
Sounds good. The more reliable sources, the better. --TorriTorri(talk/contribs) 17:54, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
I've removed that source, it appears to be self-published, it doesn't identify that it is a thesis, or that it is peer reviewed.  The phrase "amount of people" in the first paragraph should clarify, too.  For reference, the sentence regarding "Inland Empire" was, "The Inland Empire (IE) is a metropolitan area in Southern California consisting of cities in Los Angeles, San Bernardino, and Riverside Counties.", which is not actually a definition of "Inland Empire" anyway.  Unscintillating (talk) 19:04, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
I've added a different source. The one which was removed appears to have been part of a grant application. In my opinion, it is reliable enough to support the proposition that the IE includes eastern L.A. cities. And if you'll notice, that's the only thing I'm using the sources for - the notion that L.A. County cities are sometimes included within the boundaries of the IE - not to make any precise boundary definitions. Although I have to say that as a southern Californian, I've always considered Pomona to be part of the IE. Dohn joe (talk) 19:37, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
I prefer the image idea to the map for the above stated reasons. Also torri mentioned that the references in this article refer to it as the two county region, however, I'm sure there are tons of other sources that cite the urban area or core near Riverside-San Berdo. I believe the urban areas map could be referenced by searching for urban areas in the U.S. Census database that would place it under the said MSA. 08OceanBeach SD (talk) 01:36, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
Here is a map and an aerial photograph. Neither identify the Inland Empire, but they each might let a reader infer the concept. http://www.aqmd.gov/map/MapAQMD1.pdf has "urban areas", and after the above comment I found it interesting to see Pomona on this map.  This site shows the night lites in the area. This particular image could be recreated from the public domain NASA/NOAA/DOD photo, and perhaps could be widened to include both of the two counties over through Las Vegas.  I briefly tried creating such, but didn't get very far.  Such an aerial photo could not be labeled "Inland Empire" but perhaps "Vicinity of Inland Empire" or "Night lights of San Bernardino and Riverside counties.  Unscintillating (talk) 17:44, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't like the two-county map, at this point I'd rather see the File:Inland_empire_within_southern_california.png which in spite of including high-desert areas is not misleading like the two-county map.  Maybe we can agree to remove both maps.  Unscintillating (talk) 19:03, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

For now I think I will replace the map infobox with the three image infobox instead until we reach a proper consensus. I agree though, the maps can be misleading when there is no universal definition.08OceanBeachS.D. 03:06, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Added info

I added some information but stopped, why isn't the metropolitan area included in the paragraph (since it is the 14th largest in the nation)? Could some let me what's going on? Thanks, House1090 (talk) 22:43, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the recent edit comment, "this article is about the Riv.-SB-Ont. metro... thats how it was made...", it seems pointedly obvious to me that this article is rather about "Inland Empire (California)".  Further, I think that this is not a useful discussion, as each has an identity, and this can be resolved by splitting this article between "Inland Empire (California)" and Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA MSA.  I think that the material based on Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA MSA obscures the complexities and ambiguities that are associated with the name "Inland Empire".  Unscintillating (talk) 13:17, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
I don't think splitting the article will help; see theres going to be more confusion, just like there already is between Greater Los Angeles Area and the Los Angeles Metropolitan Area articles. All of the Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA MSA links lead to this article, thats how it was made and build up by many users, including my self. Please look at the sources. Smile, House1090 (talk) 17:15, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
As with many other regions, the name nickname seems to have no definite definition. Neither state nor federal sources explicitly refer to the metropolitan statistical area or urban area as the Inland Empire. It may be better to rename this article and have a section titled "Inland Empire" explaining it's relation to the Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario area. 08OceanBeachS.D. 17:20, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
Yeah I agree with what you guys are saying, but I think it will add more confusion; if everything is stated in the article, the reader will understand it better, it will be clearer. The name "Inland Empire" is used by the media more than Riverside-San Bernardino, and even more than Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario MSA. Smile, House1090 (talk) 22:29, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
I don't see that it makes any sense to assert that Inland Empire is the 14th or 5th anything in size, when it doesn't even exist as an area with a defined population.  Here is a alternate variation of 08OceanBeach's proposal, imagine that we split the article as discussed, and then we had an AfD that said we had to merge the two back together, what we'd then have is an article about Inland Empire and then a huge section called Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA MSA with all the demographics for the MSA factored away from what little we do and don't know about Inland Empire.  Unscintillating (talk) 23:45, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

The Inland Empire does exist as a defined area, but I do understand it can get tricky. What if everything is included in the first paragraph? Smile! House1090 (talk) 05:04, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't make sense to me to say "The Inland Empire <is> a defined area".  It seems that there are multiple definitions, that some definitions are going to include parts of eastern Los Angeles county, and others (perhaps for statistical or marketing convenience) are not.  Some people talk about including vast desert regions by calling this a two-county area, while the article states in the lead that this is an agricultural area.  Unscintillating (talk) 06:15, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
Exactly. The Inland Empire does not have set boundaries as a metropolitan, urban, or regional entity by state or federal sources; though the Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA Metropolitan Statistical Area and Riverside-San Bernardino Urban Area do. It is a region that seems to always include the (sub)urban area surrounding the cities of Riverside, San Bernardino, and to an extent Ontario, though various sources included regions from Los Angeles County and the vast desert region. 08OceanBeachS.D. 00:10, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
In the list of related well-defined areas, there is the Inland Empire region ref, which has a map drawn by the state of California.  Unscintillating (talk) 02:58, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
Those boundaries drawn by the state seem most ideal and the region within those boundaries seem to be where the term Inland Empire is most applicable, whilst being supported by a state government source. 08OceanBeachS.D. 03:28, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Do you guys (general) think that the article should be renamed? If so what should the name be? I would agree but only if we have one single article and not multiple ones because it'll add more confusion. By the way, as a native, the Inland Empire is used to call all of SB-Riv. counties, the Riv.-SB-Ont. metropolitan area. Smile, House1090 (talk) 05:16, 19 April 2011 (UTC) :)

You are but one native and cannot speak for the 4,143,113 people of the metropolitan statistical area. This article itself claims that residents from parts of the so-called two county definition of the Inland Empire consider themselves separate. No doubt you hail from the urban core i.e. the definition drawn by the state. At any rate, multiple articles would not confuse the reader if properly cited and explained. Yet it may be best to rename this article Riverside metropolitan area, or Riverside-San Bernardino metropolitan area. There is an array of options for dealing with this. The way that I have set up the article is with the lead sentence... "The Inland Empire (I.E.), colloquially known as the IE, is term most commonly used in reference to the Riverside-San Bernardino area." - then explaining what the Riverside-San Bernardino area is. If the article sticks to the fact that the Riverside-San Bernardino area is being discussed, as opposed to the name Inland Empire being applied to the statistical areas, than their should be no issues. Please ask questions if my stand brings up confusion. 08OceanBeachS.D. 05:49, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
08OceanBeach is making sense, but I don't agree in the details.  I think we need to enumerate the many definitions that apply to "Inland Empire" and thereby clarify the ambiguity in the term, else we will leave readers confused or worse misinformed.  Specifically, it was not my intent to suggest that Inland Empire region is a synonym for Inland Empire (California).  I meant to be saying that "Inland Empire region" is currently one of three well-defined definitions associated with the term "Inland Empire".  Unscintillating (talk) 12:59, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
Actually, I lived in Joshua Tree before I moved to Yucaipa, and I now study at CSUSB; There is so much evidence, especially in the media. I think that we should describe all of the regions in what really is the Inland Empire and talk about the area throughly instead of deleting information as was done. House1090 (talk) 19:40, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Scope

Hi folks - we've been talking around this lately, but I think it's about time we figure out exactly what the scope of this article is, and whether we need separate articles for separate (but overlapping) concepts. Concept 1 is the metropolitan statistical area, which is federally defined as Riverside and San Bernardino counties. Concept 2 is the "Inland Empire", which has no universally accepted definition. Some sources consider the two concepts identical, but many sources disagree, as we've seen.

Much of the article as currently written describes Concept 1 - the population figures, lists of cities and airports, and most of the statistical info. Which is fine, when we're discussing the MSA. But when the article discusses Concept 2 separately, by saying that the Inland Empire sometimes includes eastern LA County, and sometimes excludes Temecula or the high desert, then those figures and stats are misleading.

The way I see it, there are a couple of options here. I'll lay them out, and folks can comment on/support/oppose them.

*Option One

A single article, entitled Inland Empire (California)

This is the status quo, but as I noted, it's misleading to treat the Inland Empire as if it were always considered exactly the same as the MSA. A way to make it workable is to always make explicit when a stat or figure applies to the MSA definition, but that could get messy.

*Option Two

A single article, entitled Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA MSA

This would keep all the info about Concept 1, but eliminate the Inland Empire info when it conflicts.

*Option Three

Two articles, one called Inland Empire (California), and one called Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA MSA

This option keeps the two concepts separate. All of the stats and so forth can stay in the MSA article, while the amorphous nature of the IE can be described in the other one. The downside is what to do with the overlap.

So, that's how I see it. Thoughts? Dohn joe (talk) 22:02, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Map

A map showing the location of the region, and the component areas/cities/counties, would be a really good idea. Skinsmoke (talk) 09:00, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

New Information

The Inland Empire is growing, tries to bring in more industry and corporate offices to the area, and the rapidly spread out suburban sprawl in the desert parts is amazing to learn more residents want to live, work and get themselves settled. Downtown Riverside and San Bernardino are major cities with over 200,000 residents, so they became major economic hubs of commerce, transport and business activity. I hope the older cities of Colton and Montclair pick back up, as well the new cities of Eastvale; Jurupa Valley; Menifee; and Wildomar.

This is most true to the suburbs closest to Orange County and Los Angeles County like Chino, Chino Hills, Corona, Ontario, Rancho Cucamonga and Upland. Same applies for Murrieta and Temecula right next to San Diego County; and the family-oriented bedroom community phenomenon replaced the historically senior citizen/retirement areas of Lake Elsinore; Hemet and San Jacinto and Banning/Beaumont.

There is a large upper-income class population in the northern end of San Bernardino as well the west half of the San Bernardino Valley, and one unincorporated community University District, San Bernardino aka "University Heights" or "University Hills" is a more diversified (the proportion of African-Americans is now the city's highest after Latinos moved into the formerly mostly Black East side of SBDO) neighborhood and the heavily Hispanic (immigrant, since many Mexican-American residents left there) West side of SBDO is improving in its battles against poverty, crime, drugs and gangs; and the cities of Redlands and Loma Linda have the Inland Empire's highest average annual household incomes at $75,000 and $65,000 respectively. But Chino Hills; Norco; and the Indian Wells/La Quinta and Lake Arrowhead areas have more millionaires per capita.

For about 4 decades, the Victor Valley and Barstow, in addition to the Morongo Basin the Mojave Desert was a "dumping ground" of section 8 housing and welfare recipents; and state parolees relocated there by state probation officials. The 100 mile radius from L.A. is where they sent them to, but these communities (some newly incorporated) in the late 1990s fought hard to make the state stop sending child sex offenders taking children and violent felons bringing in gangs there: Cathedral City and most of the Coachella Valley was redesignated "urban" or "suburban" and have a large percentage of minors, therefore the state probation department relocates child sex offenders end up by seniors only housing areas (i.e. Rancho Mirage) and the middle of the desert.

The latest cities to come into real estate booms of the 2000s are Desert Hot Springs, Indio and Coachella in the Palm Springs area, now the fastest growing towns in the country, because of the lower costs of housing and business opportunity. In fact, many long distance commuters now live in Yucca Valley and 29 Palms, both areas have risen home property values (still cheaper than the entire Palm Springs and Riverside-San Bernardino areas) until they along with the rest of the country's housing prices sharply dropped in the late 2000s recession caused by the real estate bubble burst.

In 2012, there was some survey on the longest average drive-to-work commute (and some take rapid mass transit like amtrak) in the country was from Palm Desert or Palm Springs (representing the Coachella Valley) to the likes of Rialto and Fontana (San Bernardino/Redlands/Ontario) as well to Moreno Valley and Perris (Riverside/Corona/Temecula) is "80-85 minutes" rivaling the Hudson Valley, New York "75-80 minutes" from Kingston to Manhattan, New York City. 71.102.21.238 (talk) 09:47, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

RfC

Light bulb iconBAn RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 16:47, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

paragraph needs re-write - my comments on it

I apologize for probably breaking every rule and convention of wikipedia, however I noticed this, and it didn't look like anyone else had.

The segment: 

Although the region's large industries have been affected by the late-2000s recession, the Inland Empire is projected to remain California's fastest-growing region for some time to come.[33] The area is also projected to remain one of the least educated areas of the state with the lowest average in annual wages in the country.[33]

The first sentence is fine, and the reference backs it up. The second sentence is confusing at best, and clearly wrong nearly any way I've tried to look at it. Here are the points that (as I see it) get muddled up in this paragraph - and this section is actually pretty important to the future-looking aspect of the article as a whole:

The article says the higher education rate is low and projected to remain so. It also states that continued growth is expected, but increasingly in high tech positions requiring extensive education. Ergo, the extensive growth (pick your adjective) will have limited benefit to the majority of citizens - beyond their continued employment in service industries.


I don't want to edit it since I'm told wikipedians get all weird and turf-wary about it, but I thought I would point this out. I hope it makes some sense, and helps improve the article a tiny bit.


209.222.18.43 (talk) 02:46, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Etymology section is the best definition

I propose moving the etymology content to be the first content read as it appears to me it is the most accurate description of this particular Inland Empire. The content listed is very confusing as it appears to use special parameters to define an area's population density. California is quite possibly the sprawl Capital of the world in terms on Urban areas, so even if it is the twelfth most populous anything in the United States, it also being the third most populous anything of California doesn't seem to add up, but then again the Census Bureau uses many peculiar parameters in numerous ways so that just about any claim can be made about just about any metro, city, or state. It seems they need to define a term for a picturesque valley settlement in front of a foothill, or on the east side of N.America, mountains or escarpments such as Catskill

The only Inland Empire I am familiar with is located in Coos Bay, Oregon (see map look for the B-lvd that crosses Newmark Ave) The only thing missing is the bird with flared tail using it as a surf board like on Egyptian pamphlets handed out at a person's funeral. You may have to zoom in quite far as for some reason, all of the maps online have been using misnomers for the names of Hwy certain sides of Boulevard. -Dirtclustit (talk) 21:07, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Fact

The Inland Empire region in Southern California (the Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario-Palm Springs area) is the US' largest metropolitan area without a major league sports team, but they are considered part of the Greater Los Angeles area (L.A. and Anaheim in Orange County) sports market. 2605:E000:FDCA:4200:8CE3:33F8:10A3:5BB8 (talk) 20:06, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

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Moved paragraph on Inland Empire

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Fun fact

From 1955 to 1972, Cabazon was incorporated, and one of the very few California communities to disband their city. Cabazon discussed reincorporation in the 2000s and still, they remain without a city council. 67.49.89.214 (talk) 13:41, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

Crime statistics

San Bernardino (1st-over 100,000 residents), Victorville (9th-over 100,000) and Desert Hot Springs (1st of cities of all populations) are among the top 10 cities with the highest crime rates in California (2015-16), while Palm Springs surpassed Compton near L.A. which is known for high crime activity for decades. 67.49.89.214 (talk) 10:28, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

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