Talk:Ilya Repin

Untitled

Coppied from User talk:Fisenko#Ilya Yefimovich Repin Don't you consider Repin's contribution to Ukrainian culture significant enough to be mwntioned in the article?--AndriyK 17:02, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Aside from Zaporozhian Cossack painting majority of his contributions were clearly to Russian culture. The article already mentions the fact he was born in Ukraine, but I'm not sure it is enough to call him a Ukrainian painter. For example someone like David Burliuk would be a Ukrainian painter, while Taras Shevchenko would be Ukrainian poet, but Mikhail Bulgakov (just like Repin) Russian writer.

Fisenko 17:50, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Zaporozhian Cossack painting was not the only his contribution to Ukrainian culture. Repin is indeed different from Bulgakov, who indeed contributed only to Russian culture. Read more about it. Then we discuss. OK? --AndriyK 19:08, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Repin has a lot of paintings to mention him as ukrainian painter. Adv94 09:57, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Can you elaborate which paintings do you refer to? Did he ever used Ukrainian language for his essays and critical works? Did he lived in Ukraine for a reasonable time as an adult? Was he ever close to any independence movement? abakharev 11:30, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't have time to translate it right now, but I'll do this soon:

залишив багату й різноманітну мист. спадщину; його ранні розписи церков на Україні знищені під час війни; численні жанрові, побутові картини, портрети і твори на іст. теми зберігаються в музеях Росії, України та у приватних зб.

на укр. теми: «Запорожці пишуть листа тур. султанові» (1880-91) — один варіянт у Москві, другий -, у Харківському Держ. Музеї Образотворчого Мистецтва; «Вечерниці» (1881), «Гайдамака» (1902), «Чорноморська вольниця» (1903), «Гопак» (1930; не закінчений); численні портрети діячів рос., укр. культури серед ін.: С. Любицької, М. Мурашка (1877), М. Костомарова, В. Тарновського (1880; «Гетьман») і С. Тарновської, Т. Шевченка (1888), Д. Багалія (1906); чотири ескізи проєк• ту пам'ятника Шевченкові у Києві (на конкурс 1910 — 14); ілюстрації до творів М. Гоголя «Тарас Бульба» і «Сорочинський ярмарок» (1872 — 82), кн. Д. Яворницького «Запоріжжя в залишках старовини і переказах народу» (1887), рисунки з пам'яток укр. архітектури, укр. нар. типів тощо.

--AndriyK 11:40, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Vasnetsov and Vrubel also painted churches in Ukraine, and so what? The birth place is irrelevant. Rudyard Kipling was born and lived in India: does it qualify him as an Indian poet? Seneca was born in Spain, but he didn't become Spanish because of that. Nathalie Sarraute was born in Ivanovo of Russian parents, but nobody considers her a Russian writer. Mickiewicz was born in Belarus, but still remains the national poet of Poland. Schopenhauer was born in Poland, but he is hardly a Polish philosopher. Sigmund Freud was born in Bohemia, does it make him a Czech psychologist? I could continue for hours, although I'm sure that nothing would persuade a nationalist. --Ghirlandajo 11:48, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

I did not speak about the birth place. (I do not clame that Mikail Bulgakov or Joseph Conrad are "Ukrainian writers"). The point is that Repin indeed contributed to Ukrainian culture and there is no reason to hide this fact from the reader.--AndriyK 11:56, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Dozens Russian artists contributed to Ukrainian culture. Vrubel and Vasnetsov painted St Vladimir's Cathedral, Rastrelli and Ivan Michurin created St Andrew's Church in Kiev. Ingres painted portraits for Russian nobles, but he is not Russian on this account. Several contributions can't dictate the artist's nationality. Repin has always been considered (and considered himself) a national Russian painter, and you can't change neither history nor his own opinion. --Ghirlandajo 12:00, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Repin also contributed to Belorussian culture, not only does he painted Ukrainian peasant girls, but there are also paintings on Belorussia themes [1]. Should we call Repin a Belorussian as well now ? Fisenko 15:25, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

I think that there is absolutely no doubt that Repin contributed considerably to Ukrainian culture and helped awaken Ukrainian national feelings during a time of dark political reaction. It is a mark of his great merit that Russians and Ukrainians both claim him for their own today. Athough he was of ethnic Russian ancestry (military colonists in eastern Ukraine) he was born, raised, and undertook his first painting in Ukraine; he painted frequently on Ukrainian themes, and had lifelong friendships with many leading personalities of Ukrainian culture with whom he seemed to sympthize. For these reasons, I believe, Yevhen Onatsky in his Mala Ukrainska Entsyklopediia, III, 1579, called him "the most outstanding painter of Ukrainian birth" (naivydatnishyi maliar ukrainskoho rodu). But he never actually seems to have called himself "a Ukrainian". Yevhen Chykalenko, in his Spohady (Memoirs) (New York, 1955)p. 189-90, writes that he wrote to Repin on the question and Repin replied that although he had been born in Ukraine "he did not feel himself a Ukrainian (ne pochuvaie sebe Ukraintsem) and that in general "Little Russia" had been so integrated into "Great Russia" that it had forever created "an indivisible Russia"... etc. etc...." Perhaps it is most accurate to say, with the author of one of his biographies, that Repin was "a painter from Ukraine" who was not indifferent to the fate of his native land.Mike Stoyik 04:54, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Your explanation was most helpful. Thanks, Ghirla ^-трёп- 07:12, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Attempt to create a policy on Nationalities

Please take part in the discussion on Portal:Russia/Russia-related Wikipedia notice board#Nationality in biographies abakharev 23:24, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Minor corrections

Very good biography on Repin. I made minor changes in phrasing, and a correction of spelling.

JNW 16:03, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Cites, please

Article contains many assertions of fact without cites. (E.g. "Beginning in the mid-1920s, a Repin cult was established in the Soviet Union and he was held up as a model "progressive" and "realist" to be imitated by "Socialist Realist" artists in the USSR." "The Tsar paid 35,000 rubles for the painting, the largest amount ever paid for a Russian painting to that time." "He was invited by Lenin to come back to Russia but refused the invitation giving the excuse that he was too old to make the journey.") Please add good cites throughout this article as necessary. -- 201.50.251.197 22:37, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

To my anonymous critic: Thank you for these three examples of infelicitous statements. I have checked some of my sources and changed and refined the statements somewhat. As it now stands, I do not think that the article goes beyond what the scholarly literature has to say about Repin. For example, there is a whole chapter in Valkenier about Repin and early Socialist Realism. The word "cult", however, is my own, but I think that it pretty much falls into the category of the obvious to anyone acquainted in the least with Soviet publications on art and on Repin in particular. Thus, it requires no source citation. On the 35,000 ruble value of the Zaporozhians, see A.Davydova, Zaporozhtsy kartina Repina (1962) or the memoir of Repin's close friend, Dmytro Yavornytsky, "Kak sozdavalas kartina Zaporozhtsy" in Khudozhestvennoe nasledstvo: Repin (M 1949), II, 80. I am sorry that I cannot find anything on this in English. As to the invitation to return home, see for example, the article by Yevhen Onatsky cited by me above.

In my opinion, there is still a great deal of work to be done on the life and work of Repin, and we really need a good objective biography to replace the pioneering but very flawed, ideologically slanted works of Soviet times. (I suspect that even his published letters have been selected and edited with ideological purposes in mind.) I look forward to seeing new works on Repin published in Russia, Ukraine, and elsewhere. Once again, thank you for your discerning comments. Regards, Mike Stoyik 01:07, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Repin´s Grave

Peharps one should add in the article where is his grave, and the current condition. He was in 1920´s named by many Russians as traitor because he did not return to Russia, but stayed in Finland in his datsha or how Finns called it huvila. At least in mid 1960´s it was in really bad shape. Not much attention was paid to its condition by the Soviet Gevernment or local Terijoki adminstration. Maybe Repin´s attitude is well shown in his comment in 1921 "Petrograd is now in the hand of evil". I had a photograph taken by my father of his huvila in September 1941 when Finnish Army had recaptured Kuokkala. So where is his grave? Borned In Ukraina and died in Finland. The story of "Russia´s" grand son.

This is a short describtion of Ilja Repin in 1919 by a British visitor; Not far away, at Kuokkala, near Rajajoki (border river between Finland and Russia), Ilya Repin, the famous Russian artist was painting his masterpieces in his dacha, quite oblivious to that was was going on around him and the fact that his world had turned upside down. Mr King, one of our British Consul in Viipuri, passed many of his paintings through to New York and London via Stockholm, where they were bought for trifling sums and today worth of fortunes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.201.128 (talk) 18:55, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Another painting in wikipedia if you want to include it.

A nihilist student, by Ilya Repin

Sourcing

The artcle was recently expanded using just one source. This is troubling and evident in the writers defensive approcah, s/he is reverting any attermpts to push it forward. And not a little beligerant when basic facts about 1. Repin's life[2] 2. How to write[3] are pointed out. Asking that a wider trawl is made to back up claims, and that I'm not called a "dylexic prick" or whatever in future, even though that may be accurate. Ceoil (talk) 18:53, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

I used three other support sources as much as I could, and would've used others but I only happen to own a full copy of the one main source. If/when I can get a copy of another bio, I'd certainly expand the article further. My defensiveness was only over your placing of trivia in the lead which had no coverage in the article body, and which gave no context as it was. In the end, all I did was add a detail to the lead that balanced out the Stalinist claim. The fact that Repin lived in Finland during Stalin's reign and turned down offers to return to the Soviet Union shows that he was no Stalinist, and that being Stalin's favorite artist was something disconnected from Repin himself.

As for the dyslexic thing, you shouldn't whine about being called names by a "twat" like me. INeverCry 19:40, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

You blind reverted, and that you think its trivia is the problem. I suggested he was a Stalinist when? Please read up on what you profess to know about. And again I suggest you expand your reading. And no I dont care less what you think, because I dont respect you, but civility is a deep conern of mine, I was just thinking of that. Ceoil (talk) 20:03, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

You dropped that detail in without a source the first time, so my first revert was perfectly justified. The second wasn't, but I got it worked out by balancing the Stalin detail with the Finland detail. As for your hypocritcal civility comment, I guess that only applies to folks who kiss your sorry ass for you. The respect bit is mutual of course. INeverCry 20:22, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

You should have known but you didnt, and were defensive, humourless and unengaging. But fine, if deflection and insults are all you can reach for. My point still stands - one source. Ceoil (talk) 20:25, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

• This needs to stop INeverCry. You can't drop something into a source "the Finland detail" that's not in the source; worse are the personal attacks, and the very worst is the close paraphrasing that I'm about to write up now. Victoria (talk) 20:29, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
  • I figured one of his buddies would show up soon enough. You both know how to pile on the bullshit. But this is getting fucking boring. The article is all yours. INeverCry 20:40, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

• • Personally I don't care much if you two want to hurl insults at each other. I do care about proper sourcing, which I've shown below to be problematic. Victoria (talk) 20:46, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Close paraphrasing

Seeing the note above I decided to look at the single source and from a quick glance found this in the chapter called "The Creative World of Ilya Repin":

Ilya Repin enjoyed more fame and recognition during his lifetime than any other Russian artist born in the nineteenth century. Repin's position in the world of pictorial art was comparable to that of Leo Tolstoy in the world of letters. For twenty-five years every new picture by Repin was awaited with bated breath, and the publication of his essays, especially those written at the turn of the century always caused a stir in cultural life of the country page 13

Our articles says:

Repin enjoyed more fame and recognition in his lifetime than any other Russian artist of the 19th century, his position in the world of art being comparable to that of Leo Tolstoy in literature. For twenty-five years, every new painting by Repin was eagerly awaited, and his essays on art greatly affected the cultural life of the country.

The bolded pieces are almost word-for-word identical. Most of the section is identical to the source. Given this, the rest of the article needs to be checked. Victoria (talk) 20:46, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

The source says:

[The critics] recognized in Repin's work the beginning of a creative search which was to enrich the general development critical realism in European art. When Repin produced his first independent works it became clear that a form of art was taking root in Russia was imbued with civic feeling and akin to the work of other major realists like Gustave Courbet, Adolph Menzel, and Mihály Munkácsy. The creative world of Repin possessed a special spiritual integrity which existed ... page 13

Our article says:

Repin's creative contributions helped to enrich the development of critical realism in European art. His art was imbued with civic feeling and compares to the work of other major realists like Gustave Courbet, Adolph Menzel, and Mihály Munkácsy. Repin's creative work possessed spiritual integrity, which existed

This is from looking at only two sentences. When I get the time, I'll go through the page from top to bottom and scrub it. Victoria (talk) 20:58, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

More - from the source:

"As in life" is often used to describe the distinctive quality of Repin's work. .... This view fails to grasp the main thing: the artist's strong creative will, a directness of conception, his tremendous technical mastery page 13

Our article:

"As in life" is often used to describe the distinctive quality of Repin's work. He had a strong creative will, a directness of conception, masterful technical skill: everything needed to create great art

Stopping now until we decide what to do. Victoria (talk) 21:14, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

• Removed: [4]. This is an interesting article about an interesting artist and I'd suggest the pieces I've removed be rewritten and reintegrated when the dust settles. In the meantime, I'll check the rest of the page over the next few days as I have time. Victoria (talk) 22:27, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

An aside, or note of interest. One of Repin's works is a central plot element of the Spanish novel El salón de ámbar by Matilde Asensi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.225.50.229 (talk) 05:36, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Travelled to Zaporozhia in Ukraine

In 1880, there was no Zaporozhia nor Ukraine. I guess he traveled to the area, but in any case this should be reformulated.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:14, 14 May 2016 (UTC) There was Ukraine in 1880.212.90.182.118 (talk) 09:17, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

You linked an article about Zaporizhzhia, but you surely have not read it because it says there that the city was founded in 1770. Nastyaaa1313 (talk) 18:22, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Nationality in the lede

It is generally not a good idea to edit-war, but the IP does not seem to get it.

Ethnicity should not be in the lede per WP:LEDE;

As Ukrainian nationality did not exist until 1991, Repin could not be a Ukrainian national; calling him a "double national" is ridiculous;

He was a citizen of the Russian Empire until 1917 and then either an apatride or a citizen of Finland after 1918.

I do not see how these facts are negotiable.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:56, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Excuse me, but "Ukrainian nationality did not exist until 1991" only shows your low level of knowledge about Ukraine.

"The history of Ukrainian nationality can be traced back to the kingdom of Kievan Rus' of the 9th to 12th centuries. It was the predecessor state to what would eventually become the Eastern Slavic nations of Belarus, Russia, and Ukraine." - from https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/History_of_Ukrainian_nationality#:~:text=The%20history%20of%20Ukrainian%20nationality,Belarus%2C%20Russia%2C%20and%20Ukraine.

Ilya Repin was born on Ukrainian territory, in the Ukrainian family, and even a large percentage of his work propagated Ukrainian culture ("Ukrainian Woman", "Reply of the Zaporozhian Cossacks", "Taras Shevchenko's portrait" and a lot of others).

So, in my opinion, we cannot call him Russian just because he was living and creating there. He is definitely Ukrainian. Kur4k111n (talk) 09:26, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Well, it is all in the complex Ukrainian history... It is incorrect to think that Ukraine never existed before 1991. I would advise to read some articles on Ukrainian history as it is a very long story. Ukraine existed long before Russia was even born as a country. Russian imperialistic rule over Ukraine 18-20 ct. or any other countries it occupied, does not imply "Russian" nationality at all. In this part of the world (Eastern Europe) people were very aware of their ethnicity as they are still today. Repin's Ukrainian-related works and involvement with other Ukrainian artists, writers, historians speaks for itself. For the artists, composers, writers, etc. born in Ukraine but who had to work in Russia we typically use term "Russian-Ukrainian" or "Russian of Ukrainian descent".68.184.153.171 (talk) 18:44, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Who are "we"? May be you use, but you have six eits on Wikipedia. WP:LEDE says otherwise. Replacing Britannica with an obscure Ukrainian site, like you have done three times is, well, disruptive. And connections of Repin with Ukraine are at length explained in the article - way longer than they deserve.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:49, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

I meant those contributors that I was working with before on similar articles. This site should not be used as a platform for the expression of personal opinions. We need to stick to the facts. Britannica's article is short, vague, and outdated. The website you refer to is a site on the history of Ukraine, which is more in depth, and is a legitimate source of information, as it backs up by other sources.68.184.153.171 (talk) 19:00, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

As far as I see all of your contributions were reverted. Again, WP:LEDE is very clear on what could be in the lede and what could not. And Britannica is still a reliable source, whether you like it or not.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:02, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

First of all, your statement on my contributions is incorrect, and frankly, should't concern anyone. Second of all, we are here to come to the consensus on Repin's origin. As far as lead goes, I do not see any contradiction with their policy. Britannica is a reliable source, but some of their articles related to history are either incomplete or outdated, as newly published research becomes available. 68.184.153.171 (talk) 19:13, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

I am sorry to repeat it for the fourth time, but WP:LEDE is very clear on that what you are doing is not allowed. Concerning Britannica, it might be outdated, but I do not see any evidence that it is outdated in this case except for it does not support what you want. Sorry for that.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:17, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Btw the site which you call "newly published research" copies the article from people.su, which is not a reliable source.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:22, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

I am not sure what you refer as "not allowed". Please clarify by quotation. Thanks68.184.153.171 (talk) 19:21, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Would you please care to read the policy?--Ymblanter (talk) 19:22, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

I did, and don't see any contradictions.68.184.153.171 (talk) 19:24, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biographies is a direct link.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:25, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

"Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability."--Ymblanter (talk) 19:26, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

This is exactly the case of "unless", as it is "relevant to the subject's notability" therefore it is permitted.68.184.153.171 (talk) 19:36, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

It is ridiculous to say that Repin is famous because he was born in today's Ukraine, and there are no non-Ukrainian sources which confirm this. Your source, as I demonstrated above, is not a WP:RS.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:50, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

The Metropolitan Museum calls him simply Ukrainian.--Aristophile (talk) 18:40, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

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Signature

violet/riga _^[talk] 23:14, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

The template used in the article does not support inclusion of the signature, and there is no consensus to include it.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:48, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Hence posting it here. violet/riga _^[talk] 11:53, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

UKRAINIAN-BORN RUSSIAN PAINTER

Encyclopedia Britannica says: Ilya Yefimovich Repin, (born August 5 [July 24, Old Style], 1844, Chuguyev, Russia [now Chuhuyiv, Ukraine]—died September 29, 1930, Kuokkala, Finland), Ukrainian-born Russian painter of historical subjects known for the power and drama of his works. Why words "ukrainian-born" is deleted from article Ymblanter? -DimGol (talk) 19:35, 17 March 2020 (UTC) https://www.britannica.com/biography/Ilya-Yefimovich-Repin

Yes, he was born in what is now Ukraine, and nobody disputes this. However, WP:MOS dos not recommend to mention this in the lede. We just have a different manual of style than Britannica. It has been discussed before multiple times, should be on this page or in archives.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:41, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Ymblanter: I saw this at RfPP, and I declined protection because the change has only been made twice at this point - not enough for protection. But I also find it hard to define these changes as vandalism; they are good faith and sourced. Part of the confusion arises from the fact that the Encyclopedia Britannica is cited as the source in the lead, and it says "Ukrainian born". If the consensus is not to include this, I suggest you 1) remove the Brit from the lead as a source and 2) possibly put a hidden comment in the lead explaining why the information is not included there. Just MHO. -- MelanieN (talk) 21:14, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, I will see what I can do (without Britannica Ukrainian users went here en masse to claim that Repin was a Ukrainian painter). I never claimed it is vandalism, it just someone posted somewhere "Hey, the English Wikipedia says Repin was not born in Ukraine, go there and correct it", these mass actions are quite common in this community.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:20, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Oh, I see that the same administrator is involved in editing all the controversial articles with artists of Ukrainian origin. An interesting fact. Cesare Urbino (talk) 17:10, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

REPIN WAS A UKRAINIAN PAINTER NOT A RUSSIAN ONE! Richerboss (talk) 13:12, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Seriously, I even know which tweet you are coming from.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:19, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

As this seems to be your most recent post on this matter I thought I share my complaint here. For a person so straightforwardly engaged in Russian Imperialism, as seen here especially in your 2017 comments of "nonexistance" of Ukrainian Nationality before 1991 (but 'somehow' existence of Russian one), as well as your "contribution" to a set of "hot" topics regarding Ukraine and its history I was wondering why in grace are you actually editing anything related to Ukraine? Especially putting Ukraine's map on your profile, what's the reason? Why so much English information about Ukraine is still being managed by those with clearly Russian biases in place no matter how hard they try to hide them? In terms of Repin, I would insist that both his background as well as his works, opinions and reputation indicate and portray him exactly as Ukrainian painter working under Russian Empire, not just "Ukrainian-born." 2601:43:3:BC50:2CA8:F4A:2D0C:D28F (talk) 01:36, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Painting names in italics

Some but not all painting names are in italics. Unless there is a reason not to, I believe all English (or Latin-alphabet) painting names should be in italics. —Anomalocaris (talk) 22:44, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Disruptive editing

Disruptive editing has resumed; article needs protection. Many thanks, SiefkinDR (talk) 15:31, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Probably premature at the moment since it has been one IP since previous protection expired on 1 May. If it continues, it is possible to request at WP:RPP. Mellk (talk) 18:34, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 August 2022

Repin was born in territory Ukraine - please amend 2A02:C7E:575D:6200:650A:7C3E:752C:198A (talk) 21:10, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

• It says "born in what is now Ukraine" already. KylieTastic (talk) 21:42, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

  The Met just updated their artwork database, referring to Repin as Ukrainian, without qualifiers.[5][6][7][8] Three of these have a note:

  Artists who worked in nations that were part of the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union are often identified in exhibitions and publications as Russian well into the twenty-first century. Repin’s identities as Russian and Ukrainian are complex and debated by scholars. For different perspectives, see Thomas M. Prymak, "A Painter from Ukraine: Ilya Repin," Canadian Slavonic Papers / Revue Canadienne des Slavistes 55, nos. 1–2 (March–June 2013), pp. 19–43; and Leigh 2022. For simplicity and consistency, The Met currently identifies Repin as Ukrainian, using as a guideline his place of birth, Chuhuiv (Chuguev), in Ukraine.

  Allison Leigh. "Farewell to Russian Art: On Resistance, Complicity, and Decolonization in a Time of War." Nineteenth-Century Art Worldwide 21 (Autumn 2022), p. 141, figs. 12, 13 (color, gallery label and object page screenshot) [9], argues that the artist should be identified as Ukrainian.

   —Michael Z. 06:42, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

  Indeed, Ukrainian propaganda seems to be very efficient. Ymblanter (talk) 07:06, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

  Western scholarship is recognizing the effect on it of many decades of efficient Russian propaganda, and correcting itself. If one isn’t able to accept it, then one is likely to be be very disappointed for the foreseeable future. Continually denigrating the decolonization of scholarship is probably not a sustainable coping mechanism.  —Michael Z. 07:30, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

  Or there are a bunch of activists and infowarriors who started campaigns and harassing these museums. Mellk (talk) 07:33, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

  Already? I haven’t seen it, but I highly doubt that online poo-pooing would get the Met to reverse its correction. Raising awareness would just prompt further reevaluation of Russian colonialism embedded in not only the history of art, but also of literature, science, and so on.  —Michael Z. 15:46, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

  These campaigns are nothing new and only intensified in the past year. But if "online poo-pooing" and "raising awareness" is what you call it, sure, whatever. Mellk (talk) 16:27, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

  Like I said, I haven’t seen it. As far as I know, they focus on demonizing Ukrainians and Ukraine to discourage support for Ukraine’s defence internationally, and to motivate support for the war domestically. If you know of any media or academic coverage, please post links and I can incorporate it into Disinformation in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.  —Michael Z. 16:39, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

  Apparently you don't consider the Metropolitan Museum of Art as a reputable source. If you need additional sources to classify Repin as Ukranian, they do exist:

  https://huri.harvard.edu/news/ilya-repins-ukrainian-heritage-svitlana-shiells

  https://www.jstor.org/stable/23617571 Robinsonj7 (talk) 22:08, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

  Attribution changes performed my Met Museum are the result of a year-long pressure from a very vocal Ukranian activist group.

  From what I've seen, they used a range of methods, from institutional pressure with the assiatance of Ukranian govt institutions to massive online campaigns, which sometimes did come down to harassment.

  Here is an example of such campaign.

  https://twitter.com/ukr_arthistory/status/1603872599439728649 Heinza (talk) 08:53, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

  You’re pointing to a professional art historian and journalist’s account. There’s no evidence she ever influenced what appears on the Met’s website, nor that some “massive online campaign” or “harassment” exists. In fact the only coercion in this field comprises Russian institutions stealing and destroying Ukrainian cultural legacy with massive deadly force: systematic war crimes of historic proportions,[10] that have created awareness of the colonial treatment of Ukrainian subjects than any activism.

  The Met’s action is part of a trend of decolonization, that we see in the actions and statements of many institutions, academics, and journalists. See the Todd Prince article I linked below for background.

  You came back to make your 11th edit after 21 months dormancy to make an activist comment here. Is this part of an online campaign? If so, I observe it opposes the trends in reliable sources. Sounds like textbook WP:RGW.  —Michael Z. 15:33, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

  I'm not an activist. I've been registered in Wiki since 2007, though I'm not an active editor indeed. But I've been watching this discussion thru the year. Your assumption about WP:RGW is laughable to an extreme.

  Ofc we can't say what exactly affected Met's decision. It might've been even moon phases. But we certailny can discuss the quality of this decision and circumstances it was made under. There is no doubt that a massive, organized and ongoing pressure from a number of activist groups and national institutions exists.

  Decolonization does not mean that artists should be reattributed on arbitrary and/or false grounds. The person that owns this twitter is very obviously biased. Also, they certainly are engaged in activist online campaigns, and they don't hide it at all. Messages like this don't look neither scientific, nor unbiased.

  @metmuseum, @brooklynmuseum, how about already changing the nationality of Illya Repin? He is Ukrainian and always was. Do the right thing while russia is trying to kill us and destroy our culture.

  As to inciting online pressure campaigns, here is an example of one going on right now (demand to cancel Russian art conf in Orsay Museum). This is not related to the discussion about Repin, but you requested for an evidence about questionable activist campaigns pushing the museums.

  Calls from the mentioned activist to the Orsay Museum to cancel a Ru art conference: one, two.

  Thanks for supporting the genocide of Ukrainians, @MuseeOrsay! Great job!

  What do you think about that @CanadianKobzar and other #HAFO fellas? We need your help.

  So far 400+ comments in the museum's twitter (in less than a day) in obviously coordinated manner. Majority of the comments can be absolutely classified as harassment.

  https://twitter.com/MuseeOrsay/status/1625812175725158400 Heinza (talk) 20:47, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

  "Decolonization" does not sound as bad as "appropriation", hence the usage. Mellk (talk) 04:02, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

  "After facing pressure online..."[11] Oh, of course. Mellk (talk) 05:40, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

  And correlation proves causation, hm?

  How does it feel to know that sources will inevitably keep correcting themselves?  —Michael Z. 06:43, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

  Please refer to WP:NOTAFORUM, even if you are interested so much in finding out about my feelings. Mellk (talk) 06:55, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, not a forum, so please restrict your comments to suggestions based on sources and not obstructions appealing to feelings.  —Michael Z. 14:04, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

  I would suggest not to make claims such as obstructions appealing to feelings without any evidence. Mellk (talk) 14:48, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

  I would suggest not amplifying Heinza’s unfounded and unreasonable assertions with innuendo. But perhaps you can identify exactly what “appropriation” you referred to to clarify.  —Michael Z. 15:17, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

  Quite clearly such propaganda campaigns do exist. Mellk (talk) 18:28, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

  [Citation needed].

  Who did you accuse of appropriating what?  —Michael Z. 19:57, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

  Here’s a pretty good explainer:

  • Todd Prince, “Moscow’s Invasion of Ukraine Triggers ‘Soul-Searching’ at Western Universities as Scholars Rethink Russian Studies,” RFE/RL, January 1, 2023.

   —Michael Z. 07:34, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

  Don't make up nonsense. He was born in the Russian Empire and considered himself a Russian. His surname was Russian and he spoke Russian. The country of Ukraine did not exist then and he did not ascribe such a nationality to himself. 31.135.248.2 (talk) 14:27, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

  As far as I understand, the term "Nationality" makes no sense when it is applied to people who were born in estate societies like Russian empire. In Russian empire, people were not Russian nationals, but Russian Czar's subjects. Russian, Ukrainian and other nations were just in a process of formation, and no such a nation-state as Ukraine or Russia existed by that time. I think, to avoid confusion, the word "Nationality" in the infobox should be replaced with "Citizenship", and it should be

  "Citizenship: Russian Empire"

  Paul Siebert (talk) 10:28, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

  RS don’t support your ideas.  —Michael Z. 22:40, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

origin of Repin

Wikipedia should not be a politicized platform... what are the authoritative sources that Repin is Ukrainian? The fact that he was born on the territory of present-day Ukraine?

according to this logic, let's write Kant down in Russian, because he was born on the territory of present-day Russia.

it is worth noting that 60% of the current Ukraine was founded by Russian EMPERORS. It is worth noting that Oleg the prophetic captured Kiev and said: "... and Kiev will become the mother city of Russians... "

do not forget about the Ukrainization of Donetsk, Kherson, Kharkiv, etc. during the Soviet era. Do not forget how the USSR just took RUSSIAN LANDS and GAVE them to Ukrainians who lived in large numbers exceeding 80% only in the Poltava province.

I would not be surprised if this discussion is closed because of the whining of Ukrainians and I am called a fascist. After all, this is "DEMOCRACY AND JUSTICE" Kalimenk (talk) 11:10, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Sources on Repin and Ukraine

Since some are demanding sources, I’ll collect some reliable sources supporting Repin’s relationship with Ukraine. Please feel free to reply with more.

• By place of birth: Chuhuiv, Kharkov Governorate, one of the nine Ukrainian governorates of the Russian empire, in the historical region of Sloboda Ukraine, part of Ukraine historically a.k.a. “Little Russia”). [ MOS:NATIONALITY: “country, region, or territory, where the person is currently a citizen, national, or permanent resident”]
• By ancestry.
• Professionally: much of his lifelong subject matter was concerned with and executed in Ukraine and the land of the Ukrainian Cossacks of Zaporizhzhia, and he was friends and colleagues with other important artists that shared his heritage.
• His own identity could probably be described as imperial Russian but not specifically Great Russian (anti-Ukrainian arguments wilfully gloss over important distinctions like this).

This biographical article already touches on much of this, but it can still be improved on the treatment of this integral aspect of its subject.

Works specifically on Repin’s relationship to Ukraine:

• Leigh 2022: “the kind of imperialist narratives which surround Ukrainian artists like Repin and Malevich,” with a lot of discussion.[12]
• Prymak 2021 (esp. ch 9 “Message to Mehmed: Repin Creates His Zaporozhian Cossacks”): “was born and began his long career in Ukraine” (8), listed among “Polish and Ukrainian travellers” (49), “Ukrainian-born” and the Cossacks’ Reply called “the best-known Ukrainian painting of all time” (53), listed among figures “from the Ukrainian Kresy” (56), “Ukrainian-born Russian painter” (60), “was of Ukrainian origin from the Kharkiv area, the western part of Slobidska Ukraina/Sloboda Ukraine” (173), “native son of Sloboda Ukraine” and recalls Russia was an empire with “Repin . . . turned to realism and native ‘Russian’ (including Ukrainian) motifs,” (175), discusses how he was already seen by some as a “Ukrainian national painter” in 1900 (197–98). ISBN 9780228005780
• Shiells 2016: title “Ilya Repin’s Ukrainian Heritage”[13]
• Prymak 2013: title “A Painter from Ukraine: Ilya Repin”[14]

Other works:

• Britannica: “Ukrainian-born Russian painter”[15]
• Getty Research Union List of Artist Names Online: “Nationalities: Russian (preferred) / Ukrainian. . . . Born: Chuhuyiv (Kharkivs'ka Oblast', Ukraine)”[16]
• Benezit Dictionary of Artists 2015 [2011]: “Ukrainian.”[17]
• Grove Art Online 2003: “Russian of Ukrainian birth.”[18]
• Metropolitan Museum of Art: “Ukrainian.” Note: “Artists who worked in nations that were part of the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union are often identified in exhibitions and publications as Russian well into the twenty-first century. Repin’s identities as Russian and Ukrainian are complex and debated by scholars. For different perspectives, see Thomas M. Prymak, "A Painter from Ukraine: Ilya Repin," Canadian Slavonic Papers / Revue Canadienne des Slavistes 55, nos. 1–2 (March–June 2013), pp. 19–43; and Leigh 2022. For simplicity and consistency, The Met currently identifies Repin as Ukrainian, using as a guideline his place of birth, Chuhuiv (Chuguev), in Ukraine.” [19][20][21][22]
• Sternin 2012: “born on 5 August 1844 in the small Ukrainian town of Chuguyev.” (14); “Repin’s Ukrainian origin” (30). ISBN 9781780427331

They certainly debunk the mantra of “Ukraine did not exist” that is the staple used by you-know-who to denigrate a nation with stateless periods in its history and a country that has born that name since the 15th century (compare: when Repin was born there was no state named Italy either).  —Michael Z. 21:24, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

I noticed that the setting of Reply of the Zaporozhian Cossacks is often used as a proof of Repin's Ukranian identity or connections to Ukraine. I believe, in such discussiona it's necessary to mention that Repin himself viewed Cossacks vs Ottomans historical plot it as a part of Russian historical myth. He mentiones this explicitly in the letter to his friend Leskov.

But you know, I must confess to you that I also had an idea in Zaporozhye ... And our Zaporozhye delights me with this freedom, this uplift of chivalrous spirit. The remote forces of the Russian people renounced worldly blessings and founded an equal brotherhood to defend their best principles of the Orthodox faith and the human person. [23]

Thus, the Cossack setting of the painting cannot be used to support the claim about Repin's supposed Ukranian identity. Repin's comment is quite clear here. He created this work (in a row of his other historical paintings), because he viewed himself as a Russian national painter and wanted to contribute into Russia's historical myth. (And for this very reason Emperor Alexander III bought the painting later into his collection). Heinza (talk) 02:01, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

I assume that’s your own interpretation, as you haven’t quoted any source giving it. WP:NOTFORUM, so please don’t post personal musings and speculations.  —Michael Z. 02:25, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

I referenced a primary source (letter of Repin himself), which provides important context for the discussion on Repin's identity. Please elaborate why you view it as a speculation. Heinza (talk) 04:09, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

It is difficult to consider as an argument the fact that Repin took up Ukrainian themes in his paintings, because if this were to be a decisive factor, the number of paintings with strictly Russian themes is much greater Marcelus (talk) 18:43, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

No, that is the converse of the argument, which Prymak 2016, for example, deals with at far to much length for me to quote. Repin’s relationship with Ukraine is exposed by the evidence of his practice, not determined by it.  —Michael Z. 19:29, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Another work quoted in Prymak 2021 (8–9) is Bielichko 1994:[24]

[In Soviet times, Repin] was very seldom accounted among Ukrainian artists. This very fact testifies to that cultural process that began in Ukraine after the Pereiaslav Treaty of 1654 [by which he eastern part of the country became a vassal of Muscovy] and of which Repin is a concrete example. Ukraine produced geniuses, but because of its colonial status was not able to provide them with an appropriate field for their endeavours. They feel into the orbit of Russian culture, while at the same time reaching th level of [other] European achievements. Such persons in the best of circumstances retained [only] some distant memory of their homeland, and a feeling of obligation towards the spiritual betterment of their own people. Here Repin’s case is amazingly similar to that of the notable Ukrainian, Nikolai Gogol [Mykola Hohol in Ukrainian]. And he stands together with other famous products of Ukraine such as [the artists] L. Borovykovsky, D. Levytsky, M. Gay (Ge), A. Kuindzhi, I. Kramskoi, and M. Yaroshenko.

Prymak follows this with much explanation, including how:

such ‘colonial status' was thoroughly enforced, and such giants’ Ukrainian connection was played down for the sake of Russian greatness. This was true not only of artists, but also of statesmen, scientist, musicians, historians, architects, and various literary figures, especially from earlier Ukrainian and Russian history, so that outsiders, even many scholars, were seldom aware of the very real differences between them and genuine Muscovite and Russian-origin figures.

 —Michael Z. 19:45, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

" denigrate a nation with stateless periods in its history". Is is supposed to mean that (i) Ukraine as a nation existed before the Pereiaslav Agreement, (ii) this nation was colonized by another nation (a Russian nation). If yes, that is a brilliant example of primordialist thinking. No Ukrainian as well as Russian, Belorussian, Romanian etc nations existed in 19 century. Paul Siebert (talk) 23:32, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

All references are dated post 2000. Any references dating back when Repin lived? 2001:8003:3225:4501:7046:893D:1D89:5EEB (talk) 11:05, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

all the arguments why Repin is a Ukrainian, boil down to the fact that he lived on the land of present-day Ukraine... also, most of the foreign sources you have indicated rely on Repin's origin from where he was born. Also, according to the logic of what Repin described Zaporozhye does not make him a Ukrainian. Pushkin described the Caucasus, now can we cross him out of the Russians? There is not a single proof that Repin is Ukrainian, except for such conclusions as "he was born on the territory of present-day Ukraine, so he is Ukrainian." The same manipulation of origin occurs in foreign sources. They say that Repin is Ukrainian only because he was born on the territory of present-day Ukraine, but apart from that there is no other evidence. It is also worth noting that Ukraine received Zaporozhye only in the 1930s and 1940s from the USSR, it is also worth noting the mass genocide and Ukrainization of Russians during that period Kalimenk (talk) 03:47, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

it is worth noting that the surname Repin is Russian and has nothing to do with Ukrainians Kalimenk (talk) 03:48, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

I believe it's just a common Slavic root, so it's both Ukranian and Russian. You are right in a sense that Repin is a very common Russian surname, and pushing it as a proof of any specific "Ukraniannes" doesn't hold water at all.

Speaking about Repin's ancestry, I'd pont out the following questions.

• How much and in what way did Cossack ancetry contribute to Repin's identity? One of Repin's grandfathers was a Cossack (though, at that time it was merely a formal estate, in real life he was a merchant and owned an inn). Still Repin's another grandfather, as well as Repin's father were Russian noblemen and imperial army officers. It weakens the ancestry argument, because it concentratres only on specifically picked parts of the said ancestry.
• To what expent is it valid to map Cossacks identity of XVII-XVIII centuries specifically to modern Ukraine? Culturally and linguistically they have much more in common with Russian settlers of Novorossia, than with people in Lviv and Ternopil.

Heinza (talk) 04:34, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

it is also worth noting the fact that most Ukrainians deny the fact that THERE was NO such state as Ukraine.... There was a hetmanate, there were Cossacks, but before the revolution and the creation of the Ukrainian SSR there was no Ukraine. Kalimenk (talk) 03:51, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Google UPR idiot 213.179.233.80 (talk) 21:20, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Russian Russian Empire or the Russian Empire captured such a state as Ukraine. Give me proof that the Russian kingdom or the Russian Empire has seized such a state as Ukraine. There was a seizure of the Hetmanate, during the war of the Russians with the Poles, but not Ukraine. Kalimenk (talk) 03:52, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

the Russian kingdom or the Russian empire * Kalimenk (talk) 03:53, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Wow, seven or eight responses to a list of references and not a single one addresses the references. Thanks for the reinforcement.  —Michael Z. 04:46, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

He was born on the border of Little Russia and Novorossiya, the Russian Empire — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.111.119.54 (talk) 17:22, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Actually, I like the approach utilized in the Kipling article: "Joseph Rudyard Kipling was an English novelist, short-story writer, poet, and journalist. He was born in British India, which inspired much of his work."

In that case, "English" refers mostly not to his nationality, but a language. Therefore, in a case of Repin it should be not "Russian", but "realist". Therefore, a correct way would be

"Ilya Repin was a realist artist. He was born in Ukraine (then a part of the Russian Empire), which inspired some of his works."

--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:42, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

He was a Russian, born in the Russian Empire

in an area that, since the 14th century, diplomats from the Roman/Byzantine Empire referred to as Little Russia, Little Ruthenia. The very concept of Ukrainian nationality appeared in the mid-nineteenth century in Lviv, among the Uniates who in the sixteenth century renounced the Orthodox faith and submitted to the Catholic pope. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.111.119.54 (talk) 11:02, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Removing the name of Pataleon Szyndler from the list of subjects painted by Repin, who are described as the "leading literary and artistic figures of his time," along with the Russians Glinka, Mussorgsky, Tretyakov and Leo Tolstoi. The Wikipedia article about Szyndler doesn't rank Szyndler with with Tolstoy and the others named. Repin described himself as a Russian painter, and he was and is a prominent figure in Russian art. Cordially, SiefkinDR (talk) 15:46, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Metropolitan Museum (New York City)

Unequivocally states that Repin was Ukrainian. The Met is the most serious authority.--Aristophile (talk) 17:39, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Already mentioned above, this is not a new argument. Mellk (talk) 17:53, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

The article itself states that Repin was born in Russian Empire, hence he is Russian. 2001:8003:3225:4501:7046:893D:1D89:5EEB (talk) 10:59, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 February 2024

Repin was Russian born, not Ukrainian born. He was born in Russia, which is undisputed. Someone born in Alaska in 1866 wouldn’t be called an American born Russian. That would be factually incorrect and ridiculous. Someone kindly correct this. 198.166.206.158 (talk) 17:42, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. Not an uncontroversial edit. PianoDan (talk) 17:58, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Moscow and "The Wanderers" (1876–1885): "They Did Not Expect Him"

The last sentence in this section says: "The story is told by the different expressions on the faces of his family and small details, such as the portraits of Tsar Alexander III and of favourite Russian poets on the wall."

The man portrayed in the portrait directly behind (over) the head of the exile's wife is very clearly Taras Shevchenko, a celebrated Ukrainian poet (and painter). I propose to change the wording to: "Russian and Ukrainian poets on the wall." This matches with what it says on the wiki about the painting itself, see: They Did Not Expect Him. 185.38.209.29 (talk) 19:07, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Russian nationality

The source doesn't apply his nationality is russian Shahray (talk) 16:45, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Fake about nationality

This is a fake! Why do you call a pure-blooded Ukrainian, who has always considered himself a Ukrainian, and whose work is mostly connected to Ukraine, a russian artist? Please delete this russian propaganda information, look at the archives, study more independent and Ukrainian sources, Repin was and is a UKRAINIAN artist, he was and is a Ukrainian. 146.120.248.32 (talk) 22:12, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

A Question of russian Influence

This article, as many others, regarding the "heritage of russian empire" is heavily edited by users, directly serving the propaganda of current russian state. If Wikipedia is fine with it's platform being used for propagating own(russian) onational myth to foreign audience, then nothing shall be done. If Wikipedia cares, though, this article(in english) shall be led to a general, objective form and locked from any further russian propaganda effort. These people won't stop themselves. 88.216.148.106 (talk) 20:10, 19 November 2024 (UTC)