Talk:Illinois River (Arkansas–Oklahoma)

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On 30 August 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved from Illinois River (Oklahoma) to Illinois River (Arkansas–Oklahoma). The result of the discussion was moved.

Change of name of article

I believe the name of this article should be changed from Illinois River (Arkansas) to Illinois River (Oklahoma). The Illinois rises in the state of Arkansas, but the great majority of its length is in Oklahoma. The original title of this article was Illinois River (Oklahoma) but it was changed by somebody who apparently thought that, as the Illinois is a tributary of the Arkansas River, the river is located in Arkansas. Comments please. Smallchief (talk 01:43, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Your proposal seems reasonable to me. The list of "What links here" shows a lot more links to Oklahoma-related pages than to Arkansas-related pages. Bruin2 (talk) 14:23, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. I say that the best name of this article is Illinois River (Arkansas River). This river goes through more than one state, but it's not the only river with this name in the United States with that name, so the best title for this article is to reveal the body of water this river flows through. Georgia guy (talk) 17:58, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 6 April 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move after 5 weeks. Cúchullain ^t/c 17:17, 12 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Illinois River (Oklahoma) → Illinois River (Arkansas River) – This river flows through more than one state. A river can have different states it's in, but never has more than one body of water it empties into; for this it's the Arkansas River. Georgia guy (talk) 14:29, 6 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. It is very important to notice that this is not a proposed move to Illinois River (Arkansas) (which refers to the state of Arkansas.) It's a proposed move to Illinois River (Arkansas River) (which refers to the Arkansas River as the body of water it empties into.) Georgia guy (talk) 14:37, 6 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Cautious support unless someone comes up with a good reason not to. Red Slash 19:56, 6 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose based on the inconsistency this perpetuates when naming creeks, streams, rivers and similar geographic features. If a river is clearly a Primary Topic then such disambiguation is not required. However if disambiguation is required, which should we use?

The geographic region of where most of the river exists such as Elk River (Tennessee) – river exists in both Alabama and Tennessee and flows into the Tennessee River
The tributary of formulation such as Fountain Creek (Arkansas River)-where the creek is entirely in the state of Colorado. Why isn’t this title Fountain Creek (Colorado)? Which provides the reader more information about where this creek actually is. Additionally there are at least 21 Fountain Creeks and at least three states—IL, IN and WI that have multiple Fountain Creeks. What happens when two Fountain Creeks are tributaries of the same river?

Blackwater River is a DAB page that illustrates the inconsistency perfectly as it contains entries disambiguated both regionally—state, county, etc. and by tributary of construction.

It can get crazy when the multiples streams or rivers with the same name needs disambiguation and they all flow into the same body of water—such as the Atlantic Ocean.

Clearly WP:PLACE allows both types of disambiguation but doesn’t give priority to one or the other. I see no real benefit to WP in making this title change as it just perpetuates a silly inconsistency in our guidance. --Mike Cline (talk) 19:29, 14 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

But how is Illinois River (Arkansas River) illogical?? Illinois River (Oklahoma) implies the river is entirely in Oklahoma. Georgia guy (talk) 20:38, 14 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't say it was illogical, I said it perpetuates an inconsistency in our place naming convention. Should every river that exists in more than one state that isn't a primary topic be disambiguated this way? They aren't now! That's a guideline issue. I oppose this move because it isn't policy based and perpetuates a silly inconsistency we have in our place naming convention. --Mike Cline (talk) 23:32, 14 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I can easily explain why Illinois River (Oklahoma) is illogical. The river isn't entirely in Oklahoma. What's wrong with what I'm saying?? Georgia guy (talk) 23:35, 14 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That would be a great argument if our naming guidelines were based on logic. Fountain Creek (Arkansas River) is entirely within the state of Colorado but the title doesn't tell us that. Wouldn't Fountain Creek (Colorado) be a better title? Should Sabine River (Texas–Louisiana) really be Sabine River (Gulf of Mexico)? My opposition is based entirely on the inconsistency in our naming guideline--not any fanatical disamibiguation logic (of which we have far too much).--Mike Cline (talk) 00:01, 15 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please note the part of my argument that is not shared by your Sabine River analogy. The Sabine River is not titled Sabine River (Texas) or Sabine River (Louisiana). My argument would have been shared by your analogy if it were at one of those titles, but it isn't. Georgia guy (talk) 00:20, 15 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose the proposed name is confusing. When I first read it I assumed it was referring to a river in the state of Arkansas. The disambiguator looks similar to a hypothetical Illinois River (Arkansas river). I don't really think there's a problem here - the majority of this river's length is in Oklahoma, but if you really think there is a problem, then either Illinois River (Arkansas and Oklahoma), or Illinois River (tributary of Arkansas River) would work better for me. Thanks — Amakuru (talk) 17:07, 7 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Just the majority, not 100%. River articles need to be accurate. The title Illinois River (Arkansas River) merely implies that it flows into the Arkansas River, nothing else. Georgia guy (talk) 21:35, 7 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

About the requested move

It's kind of surprising that there were a few people who support the current title even with the fact that the river isn't entirely in Oklahoma. Do many people think that the river is entirely in Oklahoma?? Georgia guy (talk) 17:43, 12 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A river by any other name

The current title doesn't work, as the river is not entirely in Oklahoma. Per WikiProject Rivers:

A river can be identified uniquely as a tributary of another river. It should be named with the name of the principal river following in parentheses. So St. Joseph River (Lake Michigan) and St. Joseph River (Maumee River).

Now, using "Illinois River (Arkansas River)" may confuse some, but if the name were meant to indicate that the river is only in Arkansas it would say "Illinois River (Arkansas)". If that's too confusing, how about the Sabine River example and call the page "Illinois River (Oklahoma–Arkansas)" or else call it "Illinois River (Oklahoma/Arkansas)". The current title cannot remain, as it is inaccurate. Personally, I like using Arkansas River for disambiguation purposes. Paris1127 (talk) 17:36, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Article reclassified

This article meets the requirements for class=C and importance=mid. I have made this change for WP:Oklahoma Bruin2 (talk) 01:03, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified (January 2018)

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Requested move 30 August 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Moved as an uncontested request with minimal participation. Best, (closed by non-admin page mover) Reading Beans 05:12, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Illinois River (Oklahoma) → Illinois River (Arkansas–Oklahoma) – Per WP:PRECISE, WP:PLACEDAB and WP:NCRIVER. About half of this river is in one state and half in the other (per this not so great map) so I think it makes sense to inclue both states in the parentheses. (Note that the 2015 RM above was to trade one state name for the other, where this is meant to be more holistic.)

Looking at other examples like Sabine River (Texas–Louisiana), White River (Arkansas–Missouri), and Iroquois River (Indiana-Illinois) the practice seems to be to order the states by the order of the river goes through them which I followed. Being precise seems especially important here to avoid confusion with the state of Illinois. RevelationDirect (talk) 18:40, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.