Talk:Ike Altgens/Archive 1

Untitled

The article is a bit on the smaller side, needs a bigger lead, and footnotes --Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 20:36, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Fixed. RadioKirk talk to me 21:57, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Why Peer Review

Already a Good Article, I'm curious to learn whether this could ever qualify as a Featured Article. My concerns are the dearth of information on this man's life prior to and following the event that made him famous. It appears at this point I have found all that can be found/is relevant/is verifiable. Comments invited. RadioKirk talk to me 05:09, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

One book got me the rest. Thank you, User:Maclean25, :) RadioKirk talk to me 05:09, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

RadioKirk, please reconsider

I think the addition of the high-res version of the first Dealey Plaza photo is worthwhile. The impact of this photo (and many other news photos of the day) was made as a full-page print in Life or similar magazines. For our readers to get a feel for the medium in its heyday we should always include quality upsampled versions when possible (if having two versions in one article really does break Fair Use then we should have only the high res version thumbnailed). This is one of the small set of features that can set us apart from Britannica and others and we should exploit it to the hilt. Plus, in this particular photograph it is impossible to even see what is happening at the resolutions currently provided. JDG 14:54, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, and strongly; click on the first thumb and the full-res image is relatively clear in its presentation of the events (edit: and especially so now that I've put up a better scan).

Please bear in mind, I'm of the very strong opinion that, while the crop is perfect for John F. Kennedy assassination and other articles specific to the assassination, this article is specific to Ike Altgens, and it should lead with his full, uncropped image. (I'll have to look it up, but I believe this also is supported by the Manual of Style.) The man-in-the doorway image already in the article better presents its subject as well.

These points argue against replacement; the image certainly cannot be added as it provides nothing beyond those already there, which would violate Fair Use. RadioKirk (u|t|c) 15:24, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, we just disagree, but I won't press it. You say "the image certainly cannot be added as it provides nothing beyond those already there"-- but it does provide something: it provides a close, high res look into the passenger compartment of that limousine about 1 second after the shot struck. I can't come up with a more important service a version of a photograph can provide, honestly. All my version is is a detail of your version, and details (in the strict illustrative sense) are extensively used in encyclopedias, books and professional journals... BTW, when one clicks on "Download high-resolution version" in your image page, the old closer-cropped, poorer scan quality image is shown. JDG 00:26, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, by point: one, that's why it's an appropriate image for the assassination articles, but not for Altgens'—the article isn't about the assassination, and the exposition is incorrect here (and is the reason it would violate Fair Use [as an addition to those there now]); two, clear your cache to see the newer version.

Let me add, if I may: there's a specific reason this article doesn't go into the goings-on within the limousine, and that's because it's an argument for assassination pages that use this image as one of a large set of still and motion images for debate. The controversy that is specific to this image (and is the entire reason Altgens merits an article of his own, to be honest) is the man in the doorway. :) RadioKirk (u|t|c) 00:41, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Secret Service agent's sightline

The article previously said that, in the Altgens photo, one of the Secret Service agents in the follow-up car is looking at the grassy knoll. Presumably this referred to the second agent standing on the left running board of the follow-up car. However, the agent is looking to his right, not ahead. At that point where the vehicle was on Elm Street, he would be still looking at either Texas School Book Depository, or (more likely) at the crowds along the north side of Elm Street.

The Roberdau map of Dealey Plaza can help show this. The Altgens photo was taken at Z-255 (see annotation on the right side of Elm Street). At that point the presidential limousine was still in front of the TSBD; the Secret Service follow-up car was behind that (for the presidential limousine drawn to scale, see it at the top of the map, on Houston Street). Whether the agent is looking 90 degrees to his right or even just 45 degrees to his right, he would still be looking in the direction of the TSBD. To be looking at the grassy knoll area from that point, he would have to be looking almost straight forward. — Walloon 09:53, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

You're correct, I neglected to take the curve of Elm into account when I wrote that. Otherwise, I've performed a minor rewrite that I hope you'll like. RadioKirk (u|t|c) 13:58, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Proposal to remove date-autoformatting

Dear fellow contributors

MOSNUM no longer encourages date autoformatting, having evolved over the past year or so from the mandatory to the optional after much discussion there and elsewhere of the disadvantages of the system. Related to this, MOSNUM prescribes rules for the raw formatting, irrespective of whether or not dates are autoformatted. MOSLINK and CONTEXT are consistent with this.

There are at least six disadvantages in using date-autoformatting, which I've capped here:

Disadvantages of date-autoformatting

• (1) In-house only

• (a) It works only for the WP "elite".
• (b) To our readers out there, it displays all-too-common inconsistencies in raw formatting in bright-blue underlined text, yet conceals them from WPians who are logged in and have chosen preferences.
• (c) It causes visitors to query why dates are bright-blue and underlined.

• (2) Avoids what are merely trivial differences

• (a) It is trivial whether the order is day–month or month–day. It is more trivial than color/colour and realise/realize, yet our consistency-within-article policy on spelling (WP:ENGVAR) has worked very well. English-speakers readily recognise both date formats; all dates after our signatures are international, and no one objects.

• (3) Colour-clutter: the bright-blue underlining of all dates

• (a) It dilutes the impact of high-value links.
• (b) It makes the text slightly harder to read.
• (c) It doesn't improve the appearance of the page.

• (4) Typos and misunderstood coding

• (a) There's a disappointing error-rate in keying in the auto-function; not bracketing the year, and enclosing the whole date in one set of brackets, are examples.
• (b) Once autoformatting is removed, mixtures of US and international formats are revealed in display mode, where they are much easier for WPians to pick up than in edit mode; so is the use of the wrong format in country-related articles.
• (c) Many WPians don't understand date-autoformatting—in particular, how if differs from ordinary linking; often it's applied simply because it's part of the furniture.

• (5) Edit-mode clutter

• (a) It's more work to enter an autoformatted date, and it doesn't make the edit-mode text any easier to read for subsequent editors.

• (6) Limited application

• (a) It's incompatible with date ranges ("January 3–9, 1998", or "3–9 January 1998", and "February–April 2006") and slashed dates ("the night of May 21/22", or "... 21/22 May").
• (b) By policy, we avoid date autoformatting in such places as quotations; the removal of autoformatting avoids this inconsistency.

Removal has generally been met with positive responses by editors. I'm seeking feedback about this proposal to remove it from the main text (using a script) in about a week's time on a trial basis. The original input formatting would be seen by all WPians, not just the huge number of visitors; it would be plain, unobtrusive text, which would give greater prominence to the high-value links. BTW, anyone has the right to object, and I have no intention of arguing with people's feelings on the issue. Tony (talk) 12:29, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Photographic Details

This article is missing VERY important information relating to the frames he shot that afternoon.

This article needs the following explained (as fully as possible):

What film stock was used?

Where is the original (negative, I assume) material now?

If original material is not available, then what copies were made, and how (how many generations 'away' have been taken from the source, original photon stimulated and processed film(s), if known)?

Where is (are) the camera(s) and lens(es) now? This is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT - AS THESE CAN BE TESTED TO PROVE THAT THEY ARE ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT - and if tested positive, then further tests can be made to establish transmission qualities (properties) of the equipment used. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.97.45.144 (talk • contribs)

With all respect to the editor at 81.97.45.144, see "Notes for editors" above. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 05:07, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Update: eh, what the hell, I found some details, so they're in a footnote. xD —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 03:33, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

My edits

I've removed some editorial and added citations and germaneness, with perhaps more to follow (when I find page numbers). Comments welcome. AnotherTinySliver (talk) 05:19, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

More cleanup here and there as I get to it. xD —ATinySliver|^ATalkPage 03:53, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Parker quote

As I peruse the featured article review from 2010, the editor formerly (and perhaps again?) known as YellowMonkey includes the article's final citation as a criterion for delisting. I'd argue for its retention. Yes, near as I can tell, Brad Parker is not particularly prolific or established as assassination researchers go; his comment, however, strikes me as non-controversial. Further, it serves as a fitting epitaph for Ike Altgens—that is, Altgens the human being, not Altgens the collection of photographs. Opinions? —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 10:15, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the pointer to this section. My opinion is UNDUE. Get something from a published source. I'm sure there are some "humanizing" quotes. Content should be based on reliable sources and thus considered of note by the editors of such sources. - - MrBill3 (talk) 10:50, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

I hate losing that quote; there's a humanity to Altgens that's lost without it. (No, we'd never met, and I have no personal interest other than a proper epitaph of sorts to a man history might otherwise forget.) Objectively I have to agree that, outside a quote here and there, Parker doesn't make the case for a friendship. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 11:30, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

I hear ya. The encyclopedia is not diminished by some humanity. But if you are aiming for GA or FA all the content must have a good source (not fluff from a non notable person whom no one quoted in print). Surely there is something similar in a source somewhere? - - MrBill3 (talk) 12:48, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

(←) That'd be nice ... I've searched on and off since this was first brought up, and not even Trask or the AP went beyond the bare. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 12:53, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

John Depew

I've removed this reference as it is no longer verifiable. Altgens was likely "played" (as an extra, really) by John Henry Depew per his 2007 obituary, which doesn't specify the role. The John Depew listed at IMDb is not the same. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 05:47, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

New Peer Review

I think it's ready (*whew*); now to find out if others agree, with thanks. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 09:31, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Credit where due

In citing this article, I've come to realize that it relies—heavily—on two books by Richard B. Trask: Pictures of the Pain (1994) and its 1998 condensation, That Day In Dallas, which went into further biographical detail. It's unfortunate that only Trask really bothered to let us know Ike the man as opposed to Altgens the photographer; at the same time, had Trask not done it, I'm not sure anyone else would have, and Altgens' article wouldn't be nearly as personal, or human. I've intentionally avoided reading Trask's conclusions or even whether he has any; as an archivist, however, I owe him my thanks—no way we could have done this without him. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 04:12, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Why the reference to Mark Lane's book is gone

The passage I deleted says:

Altgens also told attorney and author Mark Lane that he saw several individuals, including a uniformed police officer, move toward the grassy knoll shortly before the motorcade arrived. Lane's best selling book Rush to Judgment would use interviews with Altgens and others in arguing for the presence of a shooter along the knoll.

... while Rush to Judgment, page 354 (none of the other pages cited mentions the subject), says:

Altgens was not called before the Commission, but eight months after the assassination he was questioned by counsel and he made a number of interesting observations. Among other things, he said that after the shots were fired [emphasis mine] he saw "uniformed policemen with drawn guns that went racing up this little incline". He followed them up the knoll toward the wooden fence since "if they had the assassin cornered I wanted a picture". Concluding his testimony, Altgens commented:

"Well, I wish I had been able to give this information to you the next day when it was fresh on my mind because 6 months or so later, sometimes the facts might be just a little bit off and I hate to see it that way."

The deleted data is inaccurate both because "before" somehow supplanted "after" and because there's no indication Altgens "told" Lane anything at all. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 03:31, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

• By the way, I mean no disrespect to Lane or his seminal book. The idea is that we need to be precise with respect to what we relate from our sources. xD —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 06:17, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

New free image

My inestimable thanks to Altgens' family. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 23:42, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Nice work getting the photo and OTRS etc. It improves the article. - - MrBill3 (talk) 10:55, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

TYVM :) —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 11:00, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Source for Win Lawson quote

Here. Direct link to original Dallas Morning News Web post formats incorrectly. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 06:17, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Z film frames

Altgens6

Granted this is my own observation but, assuming the frames are correctly numbered (and they almost certainly are by now), Altgens6 corresponds to Z254, not Z255. This is based on the positions of JFK's arm, Jackie's hand, Connally's head and the American flag in a visual comparison of Z253-256. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 06:16, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

• Changing my mind; I just did a side-by-side, blown up, and the sunlight off the American flag convinces me it's z255. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 02:13, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Altgens7

Timing based on the sunlight reflecting off Jackie's pillbox hat using this reproduction as a reference. To my eyes, there's too much sun in Z394 and too little in Z396. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 22:28, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ike Altgens/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Location (talk · contribs) 23:54, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

While I think the subject is worthy of a stand-alone article, there are various issues with sourcing that violate WP:FRINGE, WP:SYNTH, and WP:COPYVIO. First, there are a number of fringe sources that lend undue weight to an alleged controversy regarding his photograph (e.g. Trask, Fetzer, Groden, Marrs). Secondly, primary source material from the Warren Commission is used to synthesize support for the alleged controversy. Thirdly, there are a couple YouTube videos that appear to violate our copyright policy. - Location (talk) 23:54, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

• COPYVIOs removed. Meantime, may I ask that you be more specific wrt what you feel lends "undue weight" to a controversy that has raged for more than 50 years? For example: "the controversial Associated Press photograph" was the exact phrase in WCH VII; and, as a witness to history, Altgens' statements in interviews and books—and the reactions thereto in decades-established research circles—are germane. As I look again, some of the sources may not be the most ideal, but they establish in a few words what would otherwise require links to dozens of books. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 00:45, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Sure. The premise that a controversy has raged for more than 50 years is false. Wikipedia is to reflect primarily the mainstream view of an issue, and the mainstream view is that the person in the doorway is not Oswald; the HSCA concluded that "it appears highly improbable that the spectator is Oswald and highly probable that he is Lovelady."[1] The "controversy" that the person in doorway may be Oswald is only among those who believe Oswald did not shoot Kennedy (i.e. fringe sources). On what page of WCH VII does that quote appear? - Location (talk) 01:14, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

The passage is here, p. 1 graf 1.

Meantime, if I may, I must disagree that anything not official is therefore not mainstream and is therefore "fringe". True, the "mainstream press" has mostly ignored the issue, with a notable exception here and there, but what you call "fringe" is a group comprising authors, journalists, professors and other experts with credentials ranging from solid to not so much, established over several decades. IMHO, "fringe" might have been an accurate dismissal four decades ago; not any more, and especially not with the emergent quality of the source material. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 02:42, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

(←) After re-reading the section, I tend to agree it was fluffed a bit. Rewritten. :) —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 03:29, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

That passage is from CE 1407, which is an FBI report by an unnamed source that appears in WCE XXII. It's ironic that our article references CE 1407 twice since the Warren Commission's only reference to it appears on page 149, citation 316; a citation that supports the statement: "The Commission has determined that the employee was in fact Billy Lovelady, who identified himself in the picture."[2] Like the HSCA, there is no indication from their report that they considered this controversial. Yet here we are giving weight to a passage that even the Warren Commission did not give any weight to.

The Huff Post reiterates the conspiracy viewpoint, but it is not a reliable source to characterize the issue as a controversy. - Location (talk) 04:31, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

(←) I'm again compelled to argue the point. That the author of the FBI report does not identify himself is irrelevant; the term is used by the author (not a quote from anyone else) in the official FBI report of Altgens FBI interview. (In fact, whether the report is actually written by Altgens' interviewer is irrelevant.) Also, that the WC was compelled to investigate the issue and make a determination is in and of itself evidentiary of a controversy, defined by Merriam-Webster as "a discussion marked especially by the expression of opposing views" (read: "It's Oswald." "No, it's not."). Nevertheless, I'll keep looking for a corroborative, more mainstream source, even as I argue that the massive volume of books, treatises, articles, blogs, missives, etc., by the recognized and/or highly credentialed has to count for something. :) —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 05:07, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Also from Merriam-Webster, "controversy" is an "argument that involves many people who strongly disagree about something" or "strong disagreement about something among a large group of people". There are literally thousands of items from the WC and HSCA reports with which conspiracy believers take issue, but very few of those things have generated substantial public discourse (e.g. single bullet theory, grassy knoll, Jim Garrison's investigation). Very few people are aware of this particular aspect of the Altgens photo and even fewer actually believe that Oswald was in the Altgens photo. Describing this as a "controversy" based on an anonymous FBI report from June of 1964 that the WC cited only once - and not even in reference to that point - instead of an allegation pushed by conspiracy theorists is a violation of WP:NPOV/WP:YESPOV. - Location (talk) 07:14, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Rewrite complete, and I respectfully disagree. :) —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 07:17, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

An alternative would be state that critics of the Warren Commission or lone gunman theory consider the image controversial. - Location (talk) 07:31, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

I did consider that, but: how much more powerful is it that the author of the FBI report on the interview of Altgens actually used the phrase? That's why I put it in the lede and let the sources do the talking in the rewrite. BTW, since I wasn't clear before, thank you for helping strengthen the article. :) (Edit: come to think of it, something to that effect is necessary since the lede notes the "decades-long debate".) —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 07:35, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

@Location: are your concerns addressed? Is there anything more I should be doing at this stage? —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 22:04, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Not at all. You've cherry-picked a Warren Commission exhibit that was cited only once in their massive report - and not even in reference to that point - and have given it a prominent spot in the second sentence of the article. Giving prominence to conspiracy theories in the lede fails WP:UNDUE, etc. - Location (talk) 06:05, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Well, following an additional rewrite and with every respect, we disagree and we disagree. For what it's worth, I've been the POV cop wrt to this article for years; in fact, it was the stunning mess of POV that this article had become that brought me back after an extended Wikibreak. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 09:58, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

For what it is worth, I do not mean to demean the effort you've put into this article. I have noticed over the months that you have put a lot of work into this, and you've handled my criticism well. - Location (talk) 15:00, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Much obliged. I have to admit I was a bit baffled by any notion of cherry-picking; first, of the thousands of pages and hundreds of interviews cited by the Warren commission in reaching its forgone conclusion (oops, did I say that out loud? xD), Altgens' picture was brought up entirely because of the controversy, and Altgens himself was a literal afterthought. Second, I've been a student of the assassination (neither expert nor researcher) for some four decades and, if I've been taken by anything, it's how often both lone-nut supporters and conspiracy supporters have cherry-picked—or invented outright—that which supports their theories and dispatched that which does not. (The crackpots [I have to say it] who argue Altgens 6 must have been faked, in the smothering presence of evidence proving this false, are particularly galling. As a former journalist, I lose tooth enamel every time the media embraces the crackpot du jour, further tarnishing the necessary work of the serious.) With this article in particular, maintaining complete neutrality has been a regular exercise in something just north of futility. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 20:20, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

FYI: The moderator of the SMU panel in his introduction of Altgens does mention "it became very controversial" in regards to the photograph (~1:53:00). You may want to re-listen for context. I did not catch the name of the moderator. - Location (talk) 23:23, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Now included. Thanks for the tip! —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 01:32, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I think that the photo stirred controversy is a key part of the content and that the content treats the controversy as fringe, providing adequate presentation of Altgens' thoughts and statements and the mainstream consensus. Is there a suggestion for rephrasing the lead to reflect this content in a less objectionable way? - - MrBill3 (talk) 10:09, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Altgens 6 vs. Altgens 7

A minor re-write may be in order as The New York Times obituary suggests that Altgens 7 is the more well known of the two. - Location (talk) 23:36, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Done. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 01:33, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

The article still puts more weight on the fringe claims around #6 than the mainstream notability of #7 (e.g. [3], [4], [5]). Even #4 may be more well known than #6. - Location (talk) 19:16, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Firstly: your first link includes a paragraph starting with the fact that Ike "made two historic pictures. One showed the president's head falling forward with Mrs. Kennedy's white-gloved hand reaching out to support him. The other showed Clint Hill leaping onto the trunk ..." Your third link is a story about Clint Hill which, naturally, would lead with the picture of Clint Hill. Secondly: the article now makes the case that this is not a "fringe" theory, but a mostly-but-not-entirely-ignored-by-the-mainstream, legitimate controversy—in fact, virtually all traces of a theory of any kind are wiped from the article. Nevertheless, a rewrite (again) is forthcoming. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 21:57, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm not asking you to wipe discussion of #6 from the article. The point I was attempting to illustrate with the first link is that the collage of front pages from November 22, 1963 all feature #7. The second link, a book about the AP's coverage of historic events, refers to #7... not #6. Regarding the third link about Clint Hill, why would they show the back side of him in #7 vs. the front side of him in #6? The point is that mainstream notability is with #7 and, thus, it should take precedence in the lead. - Location (talk) 00:49, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

And precedence it now does. (... and because Hill is still on the SS car in #6, doing nothing but looking at the limo, while he's climbing thereon in #7.) —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 00:57, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

That looks better. There are other issues that I will attempt to address over the next few days. - Location (talk) 01:08, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Much obliged. Please pass in the meantime. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 01:15, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Rewrite done. Any "theory" is now confined to two sentences, citing a press report (conspiracists' symposium), an adjunct university instructor, a professor emeritus, and an award-winning journalist. (Yes, Jim Marrs lives on the fringe. Yes, Crossfire, while otherwise strongly researched, made an entirely unconvincing case against LBJ. Still, on point, Marrs refreshingly gave the ongoing debate no more than its due–and it is due.) Please pass this article as twice recommended. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 23:20, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Altgens' initial comments

FYI: Here is an AP report from November 22, 1963 commenting on Altgens first impressions: [6]. - Location (talk) 19:45, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Good job inserting this into the article. - Location (talk) 01:09, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Lede

Here are some items for the time being:

1. Regarding “...’two historic pictures’...”, I think it is OK to reword this without the quotes. Consider, for example, “...Altgens captured/shot two historic photographs during the assassination...” or something like that.
2. In the same sentence, consider replacing “...and her Secret Service agent on the back...” with “...and Secret Service agent Clint Hill leaping on the back...” consistent with The Spokesman-Review news report. Although Hill may not have immediately been identified as the agent, he is notable enough himself - particularly in the context of Altgens #7 - to be mentioned at this point in the article.
3. Regarding “soon to be ‘controversial’ photograph”, I think it is OK to remove the quotes and cite the passage only to Journalists Remember. I still object to citing CE1407 for the reasons stated previously. I think it is better to include a citation to May 24, 1964 issue of Sarasota Herald-Tribune in its stead; elaborate on that news report at the appropriate place (i.e. chronological order of the development of the Oswald v. Lovelady story) in the article. (With proper weight, Dom Bonafede's report could be integrated into the story, too.)
4. Regarding “...led people in ‘this country and abroad’ to question...”, although it is accurate, it sounds weird. I do not think that it is even necessary in this part of the article but it would be better to reword this without the quotes. Maybe something like "...in the United States and overseas..." or "...domestically and internationally...".
5. For the preceding material, citation 8 refers to a pdf of an “AP Dispatch”. It appears to be the same text noted in the newspapers also cited, but it is unclear to me how it is known that this piece of paper originated with the AP. Even if it did, it is a primary source document. It should be removed and one of the newspaper reports (whichever is most complete) cited.

- Location (talk) 06:09, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

All done—and thank you. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 07:30, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Items to be addressed:

1. Regarding "...’on the front pages of newspapers all over the world.’” While this is true, it is probably not a good idea to quote Hill in subject matter about Hill. Is there another source for this, or can we paraphrase in order to remove the quotes in line with WP:OVERQUOTE?
2. Regarding “...’perhaps the most controversial photograph of the decade”. The Sarasota Herald-Tribune is not stating that it is “probably the most controversial photograph of the decade”, but is quoting The Herald Tribune as stating it. As it is not a mainstream view, the statement should be attributed to The Herald Tribune but later in the article within the section called “New interest”. As before, I would use Journalists Remember and the Sarasota Herald-Tribune to cite it as controversial. I would do this without quotes per WP:OVERQUOTE and because you have established that mainstream sources considered it controversial.

- Location (talk) 19:57, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Both fixed. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 00:49, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Items to be addressed:

1. Regarding “note 1”, I’m not sure that this is necessary.
2. Regarding “…reproduced ‘on page one of many of the world newspapers.’” It is clearly true, therefore, paraphrase to remove the quotes.
3. Regarding “Altgens had made the soon-to-be ‘controversial’…” I think the quotes can be removed.

- Location (talk) 05:42, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

1. Okay, but we're not bouncing back and forth between "make" and "take", either.
2. and 3. Done. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 07:38, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Early life and career

No major issues in this section:

1. "Dallas native Ike Altgens already knew about death at a young age..." strikes me as a bit unencyclopedic.
2. Is "make pictures" supposed to be "take pictures"? Although I "take pictures", "photograph" might be more appropriate for a professional photographer.

- Location (talk) 06:09, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

1. Ike was a person; this is as matter-of-fact as human can be. (Edit: minor rewrite.)
2. "Make" v. "take": see the article's accompanying invisible comment (like many professionals, Altgens tended to use "make", as per such quotes as "I should have made the picture I was set up to make"). (Edit: comment embellished and repeated.)

—ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 09:16, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Nothing that requires addressing at this time:

1. “Dallas native Ike Altgens was familiar with death at a young age...” still strikes me as news style, but this is something that can be hammered out with additional opinions in the future.
2. Regarding “make pictures” and similar usage elsewhere in the article, this may be parlance among photographers who attempt to convey that what they do is less passive and more active, but it is not common use usage. As above, this is something that should be brought up for additional opinions in the future.

- Location (talk) 19:57, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

I've tried to minimize "make" in a rewrite, but bouncing back and forth between lay and professional terms struck me as jarring (it was part of the reason I had put "made two historic pictures" in quotes in the lede). —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 05:50, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Photojournalist

Items to be addressed:

1. Regarding “Altgens tried to find a good spot...” cited to CE1407. As I have mentioned previously, I am not a fan of using this as a source. If the same material is in his WC testimony (which I think it is), it would be better to use it as it is likely a more reliable source for what he said his movements were.
2. Regarding “Though there were seven snapshots...”, I am not clear as to why the extended note is necessary. Altgens being unsure of how many photographs he took does not discount what others were able to verify. (I am aware that there is a conspiracy theory that twists Altgens uncertainty but it doesn’t matter if it hasn’t been discussed in reliable sources.)
3. Regarding “Altgens later described to Commissioners...”, this may seem minor but his testimony was taken by Jim Liebeler in Dallas. As written, this gives the impression that he was questioned by Warren et al in Washington D.C. What he described in his testimony might also be better in the appropriate place in the section that follows. This should probably have a citation.
4. Regarding “...he thought the sound came from firecrackers.” As above, I think it is preferable to cite to his WC testimony rather than CE1407.

- Location (talk) 19:57, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

All fixed. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 00:52, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Witness to history

Items to be addressed:

1. ”Still, he would not accept that as an excuse.” This seems to be editorializing.
2. Regarding “Altgens did make one more picture…” The statement is obvious to me, but a proper citation may be needed. It’s also worth seeking a second opinion regarding note 3 in that it appears to piece sources together outside the context of the Altgens photo to further analyze why Mrs. Kennedy was on the trunk.
3. After the second paragraph in this section, the chronology of the Altgens story skips around which would make it difficult for those unfamiliar with it to follow. The first sentence of the third paragraph leaves out the reason why the Chicago American questioned why Altgens had not been interviewed… the Lovelady story in the New York Herald Tribune. It would require some adjustment to the prose in paragraphs 4 and 5, but I think it is better to place paragraph 3 later in the article. The chronology should flow like this: The AP’s “new interest” article was December 3, 1963; Dom Bonafede’s article in the New York Herald Tribune was May 24, 1964; and Maggie Daly’s article in the Chicago American was in response to that on May 25, 1964. The FBI investigation and report in early June 1964 was in response to the Chicago American article; and the FBI investigation and report led to the WC questioning on July 22, 1964.
4. Altgens made statements regarding his observations during the assassination (including those pertaining to the number and/or origin of the shots) in his initial AP report, to the FBI prior to his WC testimony, in his testimony to the WC, and after his WC testimony to various sources. Those observations seem to jump around in the article.
5. Regarding “Altgens testified that after the shots ended…” This is what someone with the FBI said that Altgens said. He certainly did not testify to it. As before, I think it is preferable to cite to his WC testimony rather than CE1407.

- Location (talk) 23:23, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

All fixed. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 04:33, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Items to be addressed:

1. Regarding “It was this picture and its placement ‘on the front pages of newspapers all over the world…”. Again, this is clearly true, so I think it is better to paraphrase to remove the quotes.
2. Regarding “…Altgens saw ‘Secret Service men, uniformed policemen with drawn guns racing up this little incline’…” There were no Secret Service agents on the ground in Dealey Plaza, so this should read “Altgens said he saw” or “Altgens thought he saw”. I think it would be OK to paraphrase this to remove the quotes. He also described the scene as “utter confusion” which might be more descriptive to the reader. (I noticed in the citation for this that Liebeler referred to Altgens 6 as CE 203, so it might be useful to refer to the CE numbers with hyperlinks for his photographs in the article's captions.)

- Location (talk)

1. Done.
2. I'm running out of ways to say "would later testify" or "would later describe" without slamming the brakes on the narrative. Also, Ike's quote is there verbatim for a reason: it's not clear with no accompanying audio whether he meant SS agents and policemen or whether he was correcting himself. To paraphrase would constitute WP:OR. Meantime, CE 203 is technically not Altgens #6; it's a crop thereof. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 07:55, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Aftermath

Items to be addressed:

1. Is there a more descriptive heading that could be used for this section?
2. It is probably worth integrating this book from an academic into this section as it discusses how quickly the AP received information from Altgens and related material.

- Location (talk) 23:23, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Fixed. I have not integrated Zelizer's book because the text notes only that Altgens was "congratulated for the shot" with a footnote leading to Tom Wicker's Does JFK Conspire Against Reason?. I cannot find the text online to confirm by whom Altgens was "congratulated". —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 04:33, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

The “pictured man” / The man resembling Lee Harvey Oswald

Items to be addressed:

1. I think titling the section "The man resembling Lee Harvey Oswald" without quotes [although it is a quote from the AP report in the Cumberland paper] might be more enticing to the reader.
2. In the caption of the photograph, I don't believe "individual" is in quotes.
3. Regarding “Ten days after Kennedy was assassinated…” If possible, try to paraphrase to remove quotes.
4. Regarding “This would have placed Oswald…” The wording is bit awkward, but I’m not sure that I have anything better. Maybe: “If the man depicted was Oswald, this would have placed him ‘at ground level behind the motorcade’; thereby proving that he could not have been the assassin who shot Kennedy from the building’s sixth floor.” As before, it would be better to paraphrase to get the quotes out, if possible.
5. Is the Frontline citation necessary?
6. Regarding “note 5”, I don’t think we need to elaborate on where Oswald said he was or where the police officer placed him 90 seconds later. This could be construed as synthesis of material to support a conclusion.
7. Much better presentation of the timeline and use of quotations here. I see the date of the New York Herald Tribune article in the note, but I’m wondering if it might be helpful to the reader to have it in the body of the article, too, especially since Altgens thought the Chicago American article was in response to it.
8. Regarding “His supervisor signed an affidavit…”, try to paraphrase in order to remove quotes.
9. Regarding “No witness was quoted as having seen Oswald.” Although this is true, I am wondering if it acceptable to use this without a quote (i.e. one has to read the report to make that [original] analysis).

- Location (talk) 05:51, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Mostly done. Personally, I think the note re Oswald's statements was proper both in location and weight and should stay—without it, a conspiracy theorist could argue WP:SYNTH in that, by omitting where LHO said he was, the article leads the reader to conclude that he was the assassin merely because he's not in Altgens' picture. (Edit: I've restored the note; I feel very strongly about this one.) Also, I think the Herald Tribune passage is fine; it notes Lovelady being interviewed in May and Altgens also being contacted, so the exposition is unneeded, IMO. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 07:13, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Items to address:

1. FYI: There is some interesting material in the Lovelady file, including Dom Bonafede’s full article. That article, in the second-to-last paragraph, indicates that Bonafede pointed out that Altgens hadn’t been questioned before the Chicago American did. There is also a copy of Altgens #6 in the Saturday Evening Post, but I’m not sure if that’s worth of inclusion.
2. Chronologically, the “Trial of Clay Shaw” section should go before “In 1978, the House Select Committee on Assassinations…”; however, it does make sense to keep the Lovelady discussion together.
3. Are you aware of any developments in the Lovelady story between the WC and HSCA?

- Location (talk) 02:26, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

1. Fixed.
2. Agreed, especially since the recollections section jumps back to 1963 and 1967. No changes.
3. None that I've seen, or would be germane to Altgens' article. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 04:06, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Origin of the gunshots / Recollections of a witness

Items to be addressed:

1. I do not think we need a section with this title. In the first paragraph, the first source refers to the number of shots he heard and the second source (of which I am unable to access) appears to refer to the origin of those shots. Both refer to his immediate observations of the assassination in attempt to convey to people what happened AND outside the context of a conspiracy theory. That is, this material should be placed closer to discussion about his immediate observations during the assassination.
2. The pathway to the 1967 CBS interview is still in place which is a violation of WP:COPYVIO. The context of the interview appears to be whether or not Altgens thought there was a conspiracy. This is a legitimate topic for discussion, but it shouldn’t be placed in a subsection entitled “Origin of the gunshots”. It also should not be synthesized with the previous material in which he wasn’t reporting on that explicit topic.

- Location (talk) 23:23, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Both fixed. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 04:33, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Item to address:

1. The material in the first paragraph refers to his initial observations and report, not his recollections (i.e. process of thinking back on something).

- Location (talk) 02:29, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

1. Title is intentional, especially considering brevity. Even his initial observations were made after he'd been back to the offices and roughly while his film was being developed, so they count as recollections. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 04:06, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

This section may need additional attention in a FA review to ensure that this does not draw undue attention to a particular part of his observations. - Location (talk) 16:29, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Trial of Clay Shaw

Item to address:

1. Regarding Note 8, is there away to make brief mention of Connally earlier in the article so that we don’t need the note?

- Location (talk) 02:29, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

1. Not that I can see while still maintaining germaneness within Altgens' article. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 04:06, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Pictures of the Pain

Item to address:

1. Dating the book would help the reader with the timeline.

- Location (talk) 02:29, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

1. Done. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 04:06, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

External links

It might worth placing this in there. - Location (talk) 05:17, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Done. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 07:30, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Second opinion

I was asked by the nominator of this GAN to look at this article, as a fresh pair of eyes. This is not my area of expertise, so I'm not here to analyze the article's sources or make decisions wrt fringe theory issues. Both these issues seem to be addressed above, and I think that the nominator and the reviewer need to come to a consensus. My lack of expertise about the article's topic prevents me from coming on one side or the other. I have looked at past versions of this article, though, and agree that it has come far in being more neutral and less POV-y. I'm unable to say if it's gone far enough. The article doesn't violate the WP:BLP1E policy, even though Altgens is primarily known for one event; or rather, one photograph of one event.

That being said, I think that this article fulfills the GA criteria. It is reasonably well-written, and is MOS compliant. The references seem to be appropriate, although I'd bring it to someone with more expertise. It's broad in its coverage, and reasonably comprehensive for a GA. Its neutrality is good enough, although I'd suggest more eyes to look at it. It's stable, despite its controversial topic. The images, with its most recent changes, seem fine. Overall, if I were the reviewer, I'd pass it to GA with the recommendation that it be improved more and that it be accessed for neutrality, POV, and references if it were taken to FAC. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 23:47, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Much obliged, Christine. :) —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 00:07, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Ready?

@Location: ready to pass as recommended above? Anything else I should do? —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 00:36, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

I am of the opinion this article meets GA criteria and it should be passed unless there is still a clear objection. The need for defringing seems slight enough at this time to pass GA. If further objections are raised I will endeavor to help improve as needed. - - MrBill3 (talk) 10:05, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

With my continued thanks for your continued work. This is a much stronger article as a result. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 23:21, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

I look forward to specific comments from the reviewer for any further improvements needed to pass GA. I'd urge patience to maintain an enjoyable collaborative experience for all. As I said I think the article meets GA but if some more work is needed several editors are contributing. It doesn't seem like synth to me to discuss the controversy about the "man in the doorway". I do understand the question of due weight and am interested to see how it can be handled in keeping with policy. - - MrBill3 (talk) 03:00, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

You're right. When I read "There appear to be a number of primary source citations that are used to draw attention to points not explicitly discussed in mainstream sources. This could be a WP:OR violation." I jumped all the way to "he's going to find any excuse he can to fail this nom." I let my frustrations get the better of me, and that was wrong. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 03:52, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

I appreciate the conciliatory post. While I feel some of the reviewer's objections exceed what is needed to meet GA criteria, it is clear the reviewer has devoted considerable time and effort to the article. As all the items to be addressed have validity, working on them will improve the article and ATinySliver seems willing and able to continue working on the article, it seems the end result will be a tremendously improved article that will meet GA criteria without question. I am very pleased and impressed to see the level of effort devoted to making this a truly good article. - - MrBill3 (talk) 20:24, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Passed

✓ Pass I think this article passes the GA guidelines. Any unresolved issues appear to be minor and can be discussed in a FA review. - Location (talk) 16:23, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

My thanks to Location and MrBill3 for their hard work, diligence and dedication in getting this article passed! —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 21:44, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Possessive

I'm going to leave this here just for shits and giggles: this blog at AP vs. Chicago discusses (as the name would suggest) the differences between AP style vs. the Chicago Manual of Style with respect to possessives and proper nouns. AP style would be "Altgens' photograph" and, since Ike was an AP man, I'm sticking with that. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 03:27, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

References

The reference "WCH Vol. V, p. 180." refers to what? A full reference at some point should be provided. The sfn template would allow a link within each footnote to point to the full reference referred to. I will provide an example with the Trask references. - - MrBill3 (talk) 05:21, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

MrBill3: There are 26 volumes of the Warren Commission Hearings. Although it isn't formatted in the way I would do it (because it is not technically called "Warren Commission Hearings"), that particular citation refers to Warren Commission Hearings, Volume V, page 180. You can see how massive the Warren Commission collection is by starting here. A few years ago, I put sfn templates together for the 8 chapters and 18 appendices of the Warren Commission Report because I found that they were so commonly used (and abused): Talk:Warren Commission/citation templates. While not an egregious error in this context, I regularly stumble across cherry-picked primary source material from the Warren Commission or HSCA that has been inserted by some editor pushing conspiracy theories. - Location (talk) 05:57, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

MrBill3: That format was for any reference that had previously been listed in full; an "ibid" of sorts.

Location: There's an exceedingly high likelihood that, if you guessed my opinion wrt conspiracy theories, you'd be wrong. . —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 09:39, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

OK I reworded the references to refer/link to a reference in the bibliography section and included a link in that reference to the site pointed to above which seems a faithful and reliable reproduction of the WCH. Links to a conspiracy site's copies are not preferable. I added a formatted url link to several of the references to WCH. - - MrBill3 (talk) 10:47, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

OR timing and Zapruder film

Several statements are made in the article associating the timing of Altgens' photo and frames of the Zapruder film. These associations must be supported by reliable sources not OR. Likewise "within five seconds", according to what source? - - MrBill3 (talk) 10:19, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

You're correct, come to think of it, and I'm trying to get on it but Wiki's servers are being a PiTA right now ... xP xD —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 10:25, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Brad Parker's comment

The comment on Altgens' death by Brad Parker seems undue. Who is Parker and why is he notable? Searching for him or his book First on the Scene doesn't indicate notability. - - MrBill3 (talk) 10:44, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

See here. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 10:46, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

22november1963.org.uk

Discussion here. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 22:43, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

As a self-published source, it is not acceptable. - Location (talk) 22:56, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Written out. :) —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 01:31, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Stronger sourcing needed for historians and critics

The content, "Fifty years after the assassination, the point was still being argued by historians and critics of the official investigations." needs stronger support. I am not seeing historians and the "critics" in the sources are known conspiracy theorists. Individuals and groups known as and described as conspiracy theorists should be described as such, not as "historians and critics of the official investigations". - - MrBill3 (talk) 16:38, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Fixed. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 23:44, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Phrasing might be changed

The content, "snapshot that led people in the United States and abroad to question whether accused assassin Lee Harvey Oswald was visible in the doorway" could be changed to "photo that led some people to question...". "people in the United States and abroad" gives an impression of being widespread etc. I know the content closely reflects the source but when stating a fact in WP's voice it is important to consider the implication/impression. I have no problem with "controversial" as a great many people do disagree. Also "snapshot" is not what the work of professional photographers is described as. I appreciate all the work that has gone into the article and my input is intended to help it obtain GA approval (which I think it absolutely deserves at this point, but defer to the judgement of an editor with more knowledge on the JFK assassination and the GA process/standards). - - MrBill3 (talk) 08:22, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Fixed—using exact quote from source since "some people" would almost certainly have set off the weasel alarm. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 08:47, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Larry Sneed

Sneed, Larry A. (1998). "James W. Altgens: Eyewitness". No More Silence: An Oral History of the Assassination of President Kennedy. Denton, Texas: University of North Texas Press. pp. 41–59. ISBN 9781574411485. {{cite book}}: External link in |chapterurl= (help); Unknown parameter |chapterurl= ignored (|chapter-url= suggested) (help)

The above reference contains an interview of Altgens that provides good primary source material. I do not believe it is currently used in the article. -Location (talk) 20:39, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

@Location: Ooh, cool, I'll check that out, thank you! Meantime (and off-topic, sorry), there's another GAN that might be up your alley ... —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 20:46, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Ike Altgens/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

*Promotion to good article, 7 April 2006 First peer review, opened 8 April 2006 First featured article candidacy, opened 3 May 2006, closed 13 May 2006 Featured article review, opened 7 July 2010, closed 3 August 2010 Second peer review, opened 1 February 2014 Second featured article candidacy, opened 11 February 2014, closed 28 March 2014 Good article nomination, opened 10 December 2014, closed 2 January 2015

Last edited at 01:01, 5 April 2015 (UTC). Substituted at 15:01, 1 May 2016 (UTC)