Talk:Ice cream/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

edit request

i dont understand why it is "properly" ice-cream from the reference #1. merriam-webster lists it as 'ice cream' (no hyphen). that would be a more appropriate source than a 1911 cookbook. request to remove "properly" altogether, or if the 1911 cookbook is used as source, then write "historically" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.203.130.210 (talk) 19:59, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

I was coming here to address that very issue. I agree that a single cookbook (or wouuld it be cook-book?) from 1911 is not nearly sufficient to override what is standard in dictionaries. I'll remove it. Joefromrandb (talk) 07:45, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

References?

This whole article could do with better referencing. It's pretty weak at the moment.--John (talk) 18:34, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

The table

Not sure about that. Maybe a gallery? Maybe delete it? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 04:55, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

The problem is that there are infinite numbers of flavors (for example, one ice cream parlor in San Francisco has over 500). As such, I fear that it fails WP:INDISCRIMINATE. I think the best approach is to have separate articles for notable flavors (we have chocolate, mint chip, and several others; maybe create vanilla and strawberry?) pbp 05:57, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

I agree. That was sort of the idea, to add only notables or items with articles, not every flavour. The trouble is, the table is big, and there's maybe not enough juicy details for the notes section. It's a pity though, that strawberry or vanilla ice cream isn't really covered anywhere at the project. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 06:21, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

?

What does this mean? which allowed manufacturers to use less ingredients. "Ingredients" is plural. "Less" is used with noncount nouns. But beyond the grammar, what does it mean? Does it mean that a small volume or weight of non-air content could be used? (I don't know if air is considered an ingredient or not.) 202.179.19.27 (talk) 08:13, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 29 June 2013

I feel the picture for this description of ice cream is misleading. It's a picture of gelato. Ice cream and gelato are 2 different products made with different ingredients and by different processes. 98.227.231.170 (talk) 18:03, 29 June 2013 (UTC)caseoftruth@gmail.com

Not done: Thanks for the suggestion, but based on the lead, as well as some Googling, the idea that gelato is not a form of ice cream is not universal. Although "ice cream" has a narrow meaning in the US and Australia, other countries consider gelato a form of ice cream. Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 06:08, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

It seems to me that it would be better to have an illustration of something that would be universally regarded as ice cream. Siuenti (talk) 11:35, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Mmm, fair point. I've been browsing commons but struggling to find a good picture. Do you think this would be an improvement? It's less pretty than the current picture, but more universal. Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 12:41, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, seems like a reasonable choice. Siuenti (talk) 16:07, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Ok, I've put this pic in the infobox and moved the current pic to Icecream#Other_frozen_desserts. Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 12:11, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Frozen desserts

The first third of the History section describes early frozen desserts that aren't ice cream. Should this section be here? Shouldn't we have such a history section in Frozen desserts and leave it out of this? 78.86.61.94 (talk) 15:44, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 20 November 2012

O SALVADOR E FE*A

89.180.182.123 (talk) 11:26, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Not a request --Jac16888 ^Talk 12:11, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Under "Expansion in Popularity", please correct the following grammar mistake: "Agnes Marshall, regarded as the 'queen of ices' in England did much to popularize ice cream recipes and make it's consumption into a fashionable middle-class pursuit. " --should remove the apostrophe in "it's".

216.15.55.150 (talk) 02:47, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

No advertising, please

See the Guidelines:

Advertising. Information about companies and products must be written in an objective and unbiased style, free of puffery. All article topics must be verifiable with independent, third-party sources, so articles about very small "garage" or local companies are typically unacceptable. External links to commercial organizations are acceptable if they identify notable organizations which are the topic of the article.

No doubt the Oxford ice-cream place is excellent, but it does not deserve pride of place in an encyclopaedia. They have been very clever in getting their picture into the article, but it has to go ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.11.22.111 (talk) 20:54, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but could you point me to where the "advertising" is located? Acalycine ^talk 23:09, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

At the time IP added that comment on August 7th, the article contained this image: File:G&Ds on little clarenden st.JPG. It looks like it was removed from the article during a copy-edit cleanup of the article done on November 12th. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 23:54, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the info, since nobody replied to this complaint I didn't think it was resolved. Acalycine ^talk 09:07, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Not A rollback Vandal

My last edit is not vandalism and can be verified by looking at my contribution log. I edited and reverted to a previous version because the previous version is lot closer to the truth. I sell ice cream for a living and will not be including any information that will be self-promotion or advertizing.

bpage (talk) 14:30, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Deaths

Is the "Deaths" section really relevant? Except for the first one, which I couldn't access the reference to but sounds unreliable, the deaths seem to be caused by contamination, bacteria and poison that have nothing to do with ice cream. I think that unless we want to add a "Deaths" section to any food anyone has ever died from, these should be placed, if at all, under Foodborne illness or similar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.181.39.3 (talk) 23:47, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I have removed the section. GB fan 23:58, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Café Procope?

The history of ice cream shows Procopio Cutò as a most influential person in promoting this new food...why is not mentioned?--151.46.245.46 (talk) 13:38, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Snow Cones Are Not Ice Cream

Why are snow cones in the history section, when they are not related, and no explanation is even given in why they're mentioned? How do ancient snow cones relate to ice cream? It doesn't. And, the Chinese milk & rice thing does not clarify if that was actually an ice cream, which would be the first ice cream (from prior to ice cream in Europe & North America in modern times), or if it's something else. If it's something else, it also shouldn't be mentioned on this Wikipedia page without some kind of explanation of how it relates to ice cream. --174.19.234.173 (talk) 07:49, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

FANTASY

"It has also been claimed that, in the Yuan Dynasty, Kublai Khan enjoyed ice cream and kept it a royal secret until Marco Polo visited China and took the technique of making ice cream to Italy" is URBAN LEGEND!--151.47.109.244 (talk) 18:08, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Why is this edit-locked? Or is it?

Why is this article locked? Or am I just being a dumbass? There is a lock symbol over the search field and there is no edit button. I searched this talk page for "lock" and found nothing. I didn't see any explanation in the article either, but maybe I missed it. Ice cream is hardly the kind of topic I'd expect to elicit an edit war. (Dimwitic politicians eat aborted fetus ice cream in secret conclaves! Repugnant senator wants to outlaw ice cream for poor people! - LOL) I just wanted to correct the part about frozen yoghurt where it is DEFINED as being low fat. Ain't necessarily so. Not all commercial frozen yoghurt (I wish that narrow minded, Americentric spell checker would shut up - yes, dammit, yoghurt has an "h" in it, 'cause I said so) is low fat and no GOOD homemade frozen yoghurt is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.96.210.230 (talk) 00:30, 21 April 2015 (UTC) OK, I clicked the lock icon and saw what it said. So I went to the trouble of making an account and it is still locked for me. Come on, mods! Without this vital change, you may contribute to millions of people suffering from horrible frozen yoghurt because they don't know any better. That is worse than having to live without peanut butter. Can your conscience bear it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lew Rockwell Fan (talk • contribs) 01:07, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

@Lew Rockwell Fan: This article is semi-protected, this means only auto confirmed users can edit it. If you'd like, you can use the edit protected template to request someone make the edit or you can request the page be unprotected. Roborule (talk) 21:47, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Edit Request: Ice Cream Song

Under "specialty job" it states that the song usually played is a recent rap song. The underlying melody the author was referring to is the folk song Turkey in the Straw. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.210.132.40 (talk) 17:08, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

 Done. Yeah, that was silly. Grayfell (talk) 22:28, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 July 2015

Persia and Middle East

A yakhchal, an ancient type of ice house, in Yazd, Iran.

Persians used milk as a major ingredient in the production of ice cream and sweetened it with sugar rather than fruit juices. It was flavoured with rosewater, dried fruits and nuts. In the Persian Empire, people would pour grape-juice concentrate over snow, in a bowl, and eat this as a treat. This was done primarily when the weather was hot, using snow saved in the cool-keeping underground chambers known as "yakhchal", or taken from snowfall that remained at the top of mountains by the summer capital Ecbatana. In 400 BC, the Persians went further and invented a special chilled food, made of rose water and vermicelli, which was served to royalty during summers. The ice was mixed with saffron, fruits, and various other flavours.

The Roman Emperor Nero (37–68 AD) had ice brought from the mountains and combined it with fruit toppings to create chilled delicacies.

2.177.161.247 (talk) 21:07, 16 July 2015 (UTC) Persians have many differences from Arabs , every descriptions in this article is about Persian (iranian) people and nation but it is wrongly named Arabs in the beginning . Arab countries doesn't have mountain, so they couldn't have Ice for making Ice cream, they have a very hot climate . also Yakhchal is a persian word, arabs don't use "CH" in their words.

 Not done - there are plenty of mountains, and snow, in Arab countries see Skiing in Lebanon as just one example. Furthermore, we do not allow synthesis, only reliable sources - Arjayay (talk) 08:17, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 7 October 2015

Please dont let anyone to change the history. Can you believe that Arabs had ice in the sahara? Kazem Nasrabadi (talk) 09:02, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Also see the discussion just above this one. Maybe that will address your concerns? Grayfell (talk) 09:13, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

No Evidence of Arabs making ice cream

The article claims arabs used milk to make something similar to ice cream, there is no evidence of this, especially, the fact that there is no citation for that claim. The only evidence of ice cream in the middle east is in Iran. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Khosro22 (talk • contribs) 23:48, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Final sentence of the second paragraph

The second sentence says that alternatives to dairy milk, such as goat's milk or soy milk, would be suitable for those who are lactose intolerant, have allergies to dairy products or who are vegan. How ever would goat's milk or sheep's milk be suitable for vegans? I think this sentence needs to be re-written. Vorbee (talk) 17:21, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

The article could be improved with better reference to flavours

The article could be improved if it had more structural reference to the different flavours of ice cream, such as neapolitan, tutti frutti or vanilla. When it refers to a marketing company that referred to 31 flavours of ice cream, one for every day of the month, it does not actually cite what these 31 flavours are. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 22:21, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

There should also be more references to non-US sources. The article is heavily oriented towards a US audience.203.184.41.226 (talk) 05:49, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

It could also mention unusual flavours of ice cream - such as passion fruit flavour ice cream, which I have seen on sale in Sorrento. Vorbee (talk) 17:24, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

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Ice cream isn’t frozen

Ice cream isn’t a “frozen” desert. ItsNotFrozen (talk) 21:05, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

Do you have reliable sources that say it isn't frozen? ~ GB fan 21:06, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

Does this link explain frozen vs. ice crème desserts? HEREGroshnik (talk) 17:26, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Ways of eating with ice cream

This article says that ice cream may be served in dishes for eating with a spoon, and may also be eaten in cones. It could also mention that ice cream may be eaten between two wafers, and could mention that ice cream may be eaten covered in chocolate to form a choc ice. Vorbee (talk) 09:05, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Is Ice Cream good for you?

When I was at primary school (a long time ago now, before 1979) I read in a book that ice cream is good for you, providing you brush your teeth after eating it. Should this article have a section on health benefits of consumption of ice cream?Vorbee (talk) 18:46, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

There have been one or two announcements regarding nutritional health in the past 40 years. I don’t believe that I’ve cream not being good for you would be among them, though, simply because that’s never been true of ice cream as we understand it. Low-fat and/or sugar-free options make it less bad for you, but it’s never legitimately been considered a source of nutrition. PacificBoy 04:23, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Edit request on 15 April 2019

The entire tale of Catherine Medici bringing anything culinary to France has long been debunked by food historians (see Barbara Wheaton's "Savoring the Past" for a thorough takedown of the idea). I suspect many of the other anecdotes offered here are equally bogus. But with the page locked they won't be corrected, especially since the Talk page isn't exactly intuitive either. For now, my specific request is quite simply to remove the item and the note about a hundred years later starting the next item. 23.113.53.110 (talk) 17:17, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. -- Dane ^talk 03:37, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Ice cream photos

• File:Bowl ~ Ice cream.jpg

Edited photo to the left ~ Ice cream was reverted giving reason "Doesn't add anything to the article and there are probably already to many pictures in the article" I edited on ~ GB fan talk page with the below sentence

"What it adds to the article is just a basic bowl of ice cream no where in the article is there just a basic bowl of Ice cream ~ everything else has extra added items ~ fancy bowls and fancy crackers etc etc... I can make it smaller and replace one of the fancier ones if you like? ~"

So does anyone want to discuss this issue about being to many pictures in the article and if so which one should be replaced to show the basic ice cream bowl ~ with the three basic flavors Mitchellhobbs (talk) 18:09, 2 May 2019 (UTC) Just and add ~ We don't have to replace anything but if this article has to many pictures then which ones do we need to remove ~ Mitchellhobbs (talk) 18:27, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

To begin with the image isn't very good. The bowl itself is more the focal point then the ice cream in the bowl. I don't think it is a good picture to include under any circumstances whether we remove other pictures or not. We don't need more pictures or pictures that don't do a good job of showing ice cream. ~ GB fan 22:55, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Ok so we got your opinion about the picture which is all it is just an opinion. Mitchellhobbs (talk) 16:03, 3 May 2019 (UTC) since you seem to be the expert on photos, why is there three pictures in the Production section ~ you need to loose two of those Mitchellhobbs (talk) 16:03, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

You are right it is my opinion, I never claimed it to be anything other than my opinion. You put your opinion to start this section and I offered mine to continue the discussion. I am not an expert on photos and never claimed to be. I don't know why there are three pictures in the production section, I didn't place any of them there and have never said they all belong. I said when I removed the addition of your picture that there are probably to many pictures on the article already. If you want to remove some of them, I wouldn't disagree. ~ GB fan 20:10, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

thats cool ~ GB fan I'll take a good look at the whole article and hopefully together you and I can work the photos Mitchellhobbs (talk) 20:27, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

• ~ GB fan This is what I am suggesting. I would leave the picture on the left side there. It represents what the other two in production represents' individually.
  The picture in the center is like showing a picture of your refrigerator and labeling it ~ this is where we keep our ice cream ~ it makes no sense ~ Mitchellhobbs (talk) 04:31, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
• File:EismaschineBoku.JPG
• File:Yakhchal of Yazd province.jpg

by the way ~ I removed them and reverted ~ here is the ~ difference Mitchellhobbs (talk) 04:52, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

In India, frozen desserts are not ice creams!

In India, FSSAI has clearly defined ice cream to differentiate it from frozen desserts. If the product contains vegitable oil or fats, it can't be labeled as ice cream. Many companies (including multinational companies) and manufacturers in India promote frozen desserts in such a way that consumer perceive it as ice cream. Such frozen dessert sellers often sell products at equivalent price that of ice cream, but consumer pays for cheaper substitute of milk fat i.e. vegetable oil. Chauhan.vishwajit (talk) 09:10, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Ice cream’s first place of origin?

Put it in history or tell me, I might do it. Zeeshan7tfInd (talk) 21:34, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 July 2019

On Wiki: According to Canadian Food and Drug Regulations, ice cream in Canada must be at least 10 percent milk fat, and must contain at least 180 grams of solids per liter. When cocoa, chocolate syrup, fruit, nuts, or confections are added, the percentage of milk fat can be 8 percent.

My edits: According to the Canadian Food and Drug Regulations, ice cream in Canada is the product of freezing an ice cream mix. Ice cream must be at least 10 percent milkfat and must contain at least 180 grams of solids per liter with no less than 50 grams of milk fat. When cocoa, chocolate syrup, fruit, nuts, or confections are added, the percentage of milk fat can be 8 percent, which amounts to no less than 40 grams of milk fat.https://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/C.R.C.,_c._870/page-54.html#h-571733 2019team12 (talk) 17:54, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

I’ve checked snd the article now refers to text similar to what you’ve suggested. Thanks, N.J.A. | talk 01:59, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Widespread in history?

This report claims ice cream was not widespread until electricity in the 1800s. This article notes spread after cheap refrigeration in the 1900s, but the history section claims:

As early as the 10th century, ice cream was widespread among many of the Arab world's major cities, including Baghdad, Damascus, and Cairo.

It seems more likely that ice cream was eaten in major Arab cities during this period, but was not widespread among the populace? This claim is unreferenced; it would be nice to have better context on who exactly was eating ice cream in ancient civilizations and how often. -- Beland (talk) 01:01, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

After careful review of historical documents, arabs cannot be given credit in an encyclopedic manner for the creation of modern ice cream because there is no documented proof, there are no citations or unbiased references, I vote for the removal of arabic heresay from the article. seems like a classic case of "we did it but have no proof by the way arabs where the first to land on the moon and mars, oh also the royal british are direct descendants of mohammed" aka general self-race promoting ambiguity. 184.8.85.100 (talk) 04:57, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable. Unsourced claims using "...were perhaps..." should not be in the article. (By the way, Eskimos invented it around 3,000 BC using Elephant seal milk. Fact! :) I'll let you know when I get a solid source for it.) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 05:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

This section should be rewritten, the first written documentation of ice cream is confused with that of sorbet !!! The name ice cream says it all, it should be prepared with a dairy product, from an animal, bovine, sheep, sim.), which is thus first attested in a Chinese source. The ancient Persians made their cold guilty pleasure with frozen water, aka "ice", and fruits etc., not with cream!

(BTW: "vegan ice cream", which has never seen a cow, is a contradiction in terms! Legally speaking, it should not be called "ice cream"!)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:CB04:A87:6000:D49B:AE3E:D053:7C12 (talk) 17:50, 18 November 2019 (UTC) 

Food safety concerns about ice cream

From the perspective of food chemistry, ice cream is a colloid or foam. The dietary emulsifier plays an important role in ice cream. Soy lecithin and polysorbate are two popular emulsifiers used for ice cream production. A mouse study in 2015 shows that two commonly used dietary emulsifiers carboxymethylcellulose (CMC) and polysorbate 80 (P80) can potentially cause inflammatory bowel diseases, weight gain, and other metabolic syndromes. Naturelovercu (talk) 18:47, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

References

"Ice - cream"

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Ice - cream. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. TheAwesomeHwyh 02:11, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Remove "cream ice" from first sentence

(Bear with me, I'm not very familiar with how to use the more technical parts of Wikipedia.)

I've read the relevant parts of the book (or perhaps an earlier version of it, which is available online ) cited as the source for ice cream's supposed earlier name, "cream ice". I found no use of "cream ice" — only "ice cream" or "ices". From the other research I've done, I can find no reference to the term "cream ice" other than on the IDFA's The History of Ice Cream Page, which also repeats the false claim about Charles I and his coveted ice cream recipe.

I propose either removing "(derived from earlier cream ice)" from the first sentence of the article or changing it to "(derived from earlier iced cream)".

Further reading: https://www.uoguelph.ca/foodscience/book-page/ice-cream-history-and-folklore

This is from a similar book and mentions a cream ice. There's also this, which appears is in the source you linked. That said, neither says that's the origin of the term. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:05, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

 Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:11, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

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History section

The history section of this article is a self-contradictory mess. It starts be telling us that Iranians were making frozen desserts (actually' deserts'!) around 550 BC, and ends by saying that they were only made possible after the discovery of the endothermic effect, dated to the 4th century AD. In between, it makes all sorts of contradictory statements, base in some cases apparently on original research. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:37, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

You've just deleted this sentence:

The history of ice cream is full of myths and stories with little evidence to support them.

CABF45 (talk) 13:40, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I did, because you copy-pasted it from the source, in blatant disregard to the copyright policy already brought to your attention on WP:RSN. And even if it wasn't a breach of copyright, it did nothing to improve the section. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:43, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

The original sentence is slightly different and the sentence was properly credited to the source, a Royal Society of Chemistry book. CABF45 (talk) 13:49, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

References

I am not interested in debating with you further. Violate Wikipedia copyright policy again and I will report the matter. I didn't start this section to continue a discussion we have already had elsewhere, and your insistence on doing so is disruptive. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:56, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

That's the easiest thing to do. It's only about four-five sentences. How would you cite them according to your standards? CABF45 (talk) 14:00, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

@AndyTheGrump: Is the self contradictory template still relevant since CABF45's disruptive edits are now removed ?---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 14:41, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes. The origins section still ends by stating that "Ice cream was made possible only by the discovery of the endothermic effect", which is incompatible with things stated earlier. I suspect that the root issue here is that there is no real agreement as to what constitutes 'ice cream', and there is unlikely to ever be one. In such circumstances, Wikipedia needs to avoid definitive statements - and ideally, to avoid sources which make them. From a quick look, I get the impression that we are citing a fair number of sources that are likely to be questionable for historical content. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:56, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, you're right, but honestly, this is the way we go in a great many of articles dealing with stuffs with obscure origins, even the best reliable sources are often disagreeing with each others then.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 23:25, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Comment @CABF45: You seem to ignore that chemists are not historians, while the royal society of chemistry would be a reliable source for articles about chemistry, they are not for the history of ice cream. Please read our guidelines, that will spare time for all of us.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 14:03, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

However, the Indian Express is a perfect source for these types of claims... CABF45 (talk) 14:06, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Go ahead and remove it, there are many other sources supporting this claim.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 14:24, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

I removed it for you. Done here.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 14:33, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

This is an interesting discussion with a lot of good points being made. It may be better to focus the article on ice cream. The content about frozen dessert would improve that current stub article. Spudlace (talk) 17:12, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Break

I am going to attempt to boldly fix the issues that have been raised here about the history section. Geraldine M. Quinzio has written an academic book on the history of ice cream. Her discussion of ices and ice creams has custards as a precursor for ice cream. I will look for others to include the variety of ice creams in different cultures (gelato and similar variations). There is no agreement what constitutes ice cream but some things clearly out of scope can be used to improve the existing articles for other types of frozen desserts. Spudlace (talk) 19:14, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

It is far from obvious what is or isn't 'out of scope', and I'd strongly advise against edit-warring over content. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:18, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

That's why I started discussion. If you want the content in the article you should be able to explain why on the talk page without being hostile to other editors. Spudlace (talk) 21:28, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

I added back the ABC-CLIO and the Royal Society of Chemistry sources to WP:Balance the history section. I also completely rephrased and simplified the sentences to avoid Copyvio accusations. CABF45 (talk) 07:24, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

History section sentence removed

Removed this sentence: 'The first known record of this comes from the Indian poem Pancatantra, dating to the 4th century AD.'

I don't feel the reference used is strong enough. The information comes from a book, comprehensive I grant, on ice cream making. Perhaps a stronger historical source for this claim needs to be found before putting it back?

TheRegencyCook (talk) 09:20, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

It is from a book by The Culinary Institute of America, a strong source. --Gilgul Kaful (talk) 09:27, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

This is a good point. I'm very keen to find a good food history source that could add more authority too. TheRegencyCook (talk) 15:00, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

The CIA source is not an expert source for food history, it's only a cooking school. Best.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 21:59, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

My thoughts too. TheRegencyCook (talk) 10:51, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Origins

Wikaviani this is not the right article for sorbet. I left this article alone to see if you or others would fix the problems with it but you are just "guarding" content that your comments say should be removed. I am ok with you removing the content from the article or let me do it. How long is the article going to be "protected" by edit warring when everyone agrees it needs to be fixed? Spudlace (talk) 21:22, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Firstly why do you ignore WP:BRD ? The definition of ice cream may vary, in some countries, sorbets are a kind of ice cream. Besides, the content you removed is relevant to this article since it is part of the developpment of this food. The encyclopedia of Jewish food for example, describes Faludah as the forerunner of all ice creams, that makes it relevant here. Also did you take a look at the job you made ? you just made the section vanish to replace it with some chemical infos that have only few to do with history and in your hurry to do so, all the cites contain errors ... Maybe a RfC would be relevant, since i don't feel me and you will reach an agreement but if you revert again before having reached a consensus here on the talk, i'll take this to ANI.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 22:26, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't have time for an RfC. I'm not in the mood to work on the ice cream article right now but it is not acceptable for Wikipedia like this where the content in the article is about sorbet or frozen drinks. Sorbet is not a type of ice cream. But the mess you are rabidly protecting is not limited to reason. Sharbat? Like medieval orange juice? You are going to "take this to ANI". Please, do. I don't like working on controversial articles, I don't do it, I don't like having hours of time consumed by self-important pricks who would rather fight on talk pages than do work to improve articles. If I add the sourced content that I have found about ice cream it is going to make the section even more confused and contradictory then it is now. Please remove the content about sorbet from this article and fix the section so it is about ice cream or do Wikipedia and its readers a favor and stop guarding this article. Spudlace (talk) 22:43, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm guarding nothing but the quality of this article, if you don't have time to do a proper job, then maybe you should wait to have time in order to do so, just take a look at the version you left, nothing about history, cites were messed out, etc ... i just try, in good faith, to keep the quality of this article and i suggest you assume good faith about my editing. If sharbat is so much disturbing for you, fine, let's remove it, but faloodeh should remain, as per what i said just above, being the forerunner of all ice creams and sorbets, it has its place in the origins section. Best.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 22:53, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Based only on Gil Marks? Does he give any details discussion that is on par with other sources used on Wikipedia? Usually he does not. The unexplained original thoughts of Gil Marks are usually used only with careful attribution in Wikipedia articles. Spudlace (talk) 23:23, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

That source may not be the best ever, but it sounds acceptable however and is used all around Wikipedia in article dealing with food.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 23:28, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't use Gil Marks when there are better sources available. I don't use him when the source is vague. Both apply here. It's clear that he is describing the sweetened ice mixture as the "forerunner of all ice creams and sorbets", but not the faloodeh itself. He doesn't give the name for this sweetened ice mixture and he doesn't give a date for the addition of faloodeh to the modern form of the dessert. The syrup may be sharbat, but he doesn't say. Spudlace (talk) 23:59, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Gil Marks is a food historian, sounds quite relevant in an article dealing with ice cream which is food. You have the right to use him or not and to like it or not, but this source is reliable for this topic. the sweetened ice mixture is in the section named faloodeh in the source and its description is the same than faloodeh, thus the so called sweetened ice mixture is most likely faloodeh, however, if you still want to remove the word faloodeh from the article and replace it with some icy mixture, that could be a compromise, but i think that since the mixture seems to fit with faloodeh description, it's better to be the most concise possible and keep the word faloodeh.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 00:22, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Why did you remove content from the article with the edit summary "unsourced" that is from the Oxford Companion of Sugar and Sweets? Spudlace (talk) 00:39, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Because the Oxford source actually supports the next sentence, not the one i removed. By the way, while this has been discussed above, you still removed Gil Marks as a source for the sentence about the sweet icy mixture, which i genuinely disagree with, since the source explicitly supports it.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 10:32, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Did I? Well, thank you for fixing that. I thought I removed the Book of Firsts. It doesn't have any additional information to Gil Marks. I don't have any objection to your last round of edits or the removal of "invention".Spudlace (talk) 14:41, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm citing WP:Balance:

However, when reputable sources both contradict one another and also are relatively equal in prominence, describe both points of view and work for balance. This involves describing the opposing views clearly, drawing on secondary or tertiary sources that describe the disagreement from a disinterested viewpoint.

CABF45 (talk) 06:38, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

You added that same claim with the Royal society of chemistry and ABC CLIO while none of them is an expert source for food history, typical disruptive editing..---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 10:35, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

It's hardly disruptive to add ABC-CLIO and Royal Society of Chemistry sources in the article. CABF45 (talk) 07:05, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm not going to keep discussing with you since you seem to refuse to hear what several experienced editors told you here and at WP:RSN. Last attempt on my end, On wikipedia, the reliability of sources depends of the context, since the origins section of this article deals with the history of food (ice cream is food, right ?), then we need sources written by food historians, not chemists or natural sciences historians, if you add that content about a so called "invention" of ice cream back to the article, then you will be reported for disruptive editing and breach of WP:CONSENSUS. An advice, just drop the stick and move forwards, happy editing.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 14:38, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

I think the source you're pushing (published by RW Press) is less reliable than both the ABC-CLIO and the Royal Society of Chemistry sources. CABF45 (talk) 09:08, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

The ABC-CLIO source looks ok but I agree with Wikaviani about royal society of chemistry. Doing the background reading for this discussion I found very good science books that uncritically repeated claims of Chinese origin by way of Marco Polo legend. Christopher Cumo (ABC CLIO) says "most food historians usually credit Europe with its invention," Not Europeans. The earliest evidence that food historians have published supports the Europe origin, which is why we've avoided using very strong terms like "invention". Spudlace (talk) 14:55, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

If I write what the source actually says, then "AndytheGrump" screams Copyright Violation even if I slightly changed the one-two sentences per source that I cited. CABF45 (talk) 07:05, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Cumo is a historian of natural science and agriculture, not a historian of food (like Gil Marks for example), thus not an expert source for this topic. Let's leave it out.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 23:22, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Is it OK to cite the ABC-CLIO source like that:

China may have developed a forerunner of ice cream, but food historians usually credit Europe with its invention.

CABF45 (talk) 07:28, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
Does Britannica matter here?

Iced desserts were introduced into Europe from the East. Marco Polo brought back descriptions of fruit ices from his travels in China.

CABF45 (talk) 06:00, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

I added a culinary historian, slightly changed to avoid CopyVio:

According to Mageulonne Toussaint-Samat in her History of Food, the Chinese may be credited with developing a device to make sorbets and ice cream.They poured a mixture of snow and saltpetre over the exteriors of containers filled with syrup, to lower the freezing-point to below zero.

CABF45 (talk) 07:52, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Maguelonne Toussaint-Samat was a French writer of detective novels, children's and youth literature and cookbooks, not a food historian, you could verify that easily, your insistance to push your POV with the use of unreliable sources and against any consensus is disruptive. Several editors have worked on this article to improve it, i strongly suggest you drop the stick and move forwards.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 12:00, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

She is a historian who wrote "seventeen books on cuisine, history and French regional culture"; besides, it's a John Wiley & Sons book.

Also: "The story of cuisine and the social history of eating is a fascinating one, and Maguelonne Toussaint-Samat covers all its aspects in this classic history." CABF45 (talk) 12:25, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Dear Spudlace and Wikaviani, as to the solution of the content dispute, could you live with this proposal per WP:Balance:

Multiple sources claim the ice cream is of Chinese origin, while multiple other references suggest an Iranian origin.

Adding references respectively, and done. CABF45 (talk) 02:52, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Could someone tell me where the removal of Template:Self-contradictory has been discussed. CABF45 (talk) 16:29, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

The Chinese origin is supported by Encyclopædia Britannica, an ABC-CLIO, a Royal Society of Chemistry and a John Wiley & Sons reference.
The Iranian origin is supported by an RW Press source and Gil Marks.
(Yes, I know, Gil Marks is a "food historian", who mostly wrote cookbooks. However, Christopher Cumo (ABC-CLIO) is a historian of agriculture, and Maguelonne Toussaint-Samat did write A History of Food, which John Wiley & Sons decided to publish. That's good enough for me. I also think that natural sciences - including chemistry - have been crucial in the development of the ice cream, so I would also keep the Royal Society of Chemistry source.)
We could also remove the ancient history section and start with the discovery of the endothermic effect as AndytheGrump suggested. CABF45 (talk) 07:11, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Tha current version is fair enough.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 23:47, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

References

Travelers ?

Frozen drinks existed in Roman empire and Greece way before European travelers traveled to the Middle East in the Middle Ages and the book is not well known --Eddiitt0 (talk) 20:44, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Got reliable cites for that ?---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 23:45, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

It's mentioned in the article itself

"Recipes for snow-chilled sweets are included in a 1st-century Roman recipe book" --Eddiitt0 (talk) 10:16, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

"Ice creams spread throughout Europe" should be "Ice cream's spread throughout Europe". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:C4CE:8E19:4CAB:3366:5AAB:F22B (talk) 04:19, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Proposed changes to grammar in composition section

There are a few sentences in the composition section of this article with missing commas: "Sucrose which is disaccharide is usually used as a sweetening agent. Lactose which is sugar present in milk will cause freezing point depression."

I'm not able to edit this as the page is locked for me, can anyone else fix this? :) finley :) (talk) 15:46, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

I have done this.Sbishop (talk) 16:02, 9 June 2023 (UTC)