Talk:Human uses of fish/GA2

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Nominator: Chiswick Chap (talk · contribs) 14:44, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: It is a wonderful world (talk · contribs) 13:36, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

I find this an interesting topic, and am looking forward to reviewing! On first read through, this article appears to be very much ready for GAN. My only concern is the scope, so I would like to root out any issues before reviewing. I understand this is not a new concern, I have read through the arguments at the previous GA review. See the scope section of this review for my current thoughts. It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:36, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I believe it's a solid article. I stopped the previous review because it was being derailed unproductively. I've addressed the concerns before coming back here. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:42, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Chiswick Chap, I've just finished reviewing the article bar the spot check. I thought it was exceptionally well written, so most my prose comments were nitpicky. The only non-minor concerns relate to the reliability of some of the web sources, so I will wait until they have been cleared up before completing the spot check. It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:38, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Replied to those, and fixed the minor details. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:01, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

You just missed two points in the music section, and a point I made a while back in the scope section about the overview section. Will do the spot check this evening. It is a wonderful world (talk) 17:39, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Done.

I am happy with all the fixes and justifications. I uncovered some small issues were uncovered during the spot check. When these are fixed/justified, I think this article is ready for GA. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:12, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Those are done. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:17, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

@Chiswick Chap Thanks for the extremely quick responses on this review. There are two points you didn't address in the spot check section, but I think they both fall under WP:BLUESKY, so I will leave them as suggestions to cite.

Thank you for pointing out that some of my points were beyond the scope of GA, now I shouldn't make these mistakes in the future! Passing now. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:29, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Prose (Criteria 1a, 1b, 4) clock

Lead

Looks good :)

Noted, thanks!

Overview

I think "economic security" and "social cohesion"

There is an article called "ecosystem services", which talks about the benefits of ecosystems in general. To avoid confusion, I think "ecosystem services" should be changed to "services to ecosystems". It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Edited.

I think link "canaries" to a section which explains the behaviour they exhibit that is relevant to the analogy they have been used for. It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Linked.

Fish for food

However, fish farming, which has been practiced since about 3,500 BC in China,[1] is becoming increasingly important in many nations, and by 2016, more than 50% of the seafood brought to market was produced by aquaculture: If fish farming is the same thing as aquaculture, state that explicitly. If not, an explanation of the differences is needed to understand the quoted statistic. It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Glossed.

I think adding a little information on which countries/areas depend the most on fisheries would be a great addition, e.g. "Fisheries provide income for millions of people, particularly in ..." It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Maybe, but frankly it's wherever fish can be got - coasts, rivers, lakes, so not sure there's much that can really be said here. The economic details are really a focus for the directly practical articles such as fishing and fish farming.

In recreation

"Ornamental fish" is duplinked. It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Fixed.

In science

Looks good :)

Noted.

In religion and mythology

Link "Persian culture" It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Done.

Inline cite the "marvelous creatures" quote It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Done.

"these symbolic beasts" lacks encyclopedic tone, perhaps: "In some instances, they are depicted with human or animal features, such as the faces of cats or owls." It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

The tone is entirely plain and neutral.

"In-and-Out Fish Design" seems like it should be redlinked. It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Done.

Link sentries to "Picket (military)" It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Done.

the very earliest times: Either an exact timeframe, or something like "the beginnings of human settlement in the area" would add better context. It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Done.

"Old Babylonian" -> "Old Babylonian Period", so it cannot be confused with an adjective. It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Done.

The central figure of the Book of Jonah—a work of Jewish literature from the fourth century BCE—is a man named Jonah who is called on by God to serve as a prophet. Jonah refuses, fleeing the city by boat, but this is quickly discovered by the crew after they encounter a supernatural storm. The crew casts Jonah into the sea, where he is swallowed by a giant fish, which vomits Jonah out onto the shore after three days.: I think him being vomited onto the shore of the country he was initially called to be a prophet to is central to this story and should be added to this synopsis. It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Done.

The astrological symbol Pisces is based on a constellation of the same name, visible in the northern hemisphere: How does this relate to fish? It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Glossed.

In folklore and fairy tale

In film

In paintings

Link "Teleosts" It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Done.

In music

in which Itzhak Perlman, Pinchas Zukerman, Jacqueline du Pré, Daniel Barenboim and Zubin Mehta perform it at the Queen Elizabeth Hall in London: Assuming you mean that the film depicts the performance of the song, changing "perform it" to "perform the quintet" or "play the song" It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Done.

Fish are the subjects of many popular songs and folksongs. The Scottish "(Wha'll Buy My) Caller Herrin'" sings of the dangers of a fisherman's life. The nursery rhyme "Once I Caught a Fish Alive" is a counting song for small children. J. R. R. Tolkien gives...: Doesn't flow very well, consider joining the second sentence with either the first or third. It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Not sure I agree but I've done it anyway.

Academic study

Looks good :)

Noted.

See also

Add Human uses of animals? It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Done.

Sources clock

Health/formatting (Criterion 2a) Y

[5] has a cite syntax error It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Fixed (missing pipe).

[5, 15, 26, 31, 36]: Can you find identifiers for these? It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Possibly but it's not a GAN requirement.

[47]: Not sure why there is just a list of social media platform names in here It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Fixed. Must have selected the share-it-with-your-mates icons along with the title when reffing.

[7, 11]: URLs are broken. It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:41, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Archived both.

Reliability (Criterion 2b) Y

What makes "allthesky.com", "mainlynorfolk.info", "tolkiengateway.net" and "allegrofilms.com" reliable? I can't find any previous discussion of them, and they appear to be just self-published websites, except tolkiengateway which looks like a wiki. It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, these are not redlisted sites.

• AllTheSky: is a dedicated astronomy site. It is careful with its facts.
• MainlyNorfolk: This local folk music site is being used only for lyrics, which it would certainly not make up.
• TolkienGateway: this is a longstanding and trusted authority on Middle-earth matters.
• AllegroFilms: This is a film production company that can be trusted to describe basic details of its own products accurately.

Spot check (Criteria 2b, 2c, 2d) clock

[1, 2]: Y

[3]: Y

[11]: Only supports the last four words

[10b]: Y

[12]: Y

[15a, c, h]: Y

[28]: First sentence is unsupported

[37]: Y

[39]: Y

[40]: Y

[43]: The source supports everything except it only refers to fish, not specifically teliosts

Changed to 'fish'.

[44]: Also supports except teliosts specifically

As above.

[46]: Y

[52]: Y

Two other things discovered on the spot check:

[13] has a CS1 error

OK let's do without it.

[15] exists for free on archive.org. Changing the URL to this makes it more accessible.

Done, isn't a GAN matter.

Copyvio (Criterion 2d) clock

Earwig detects nothing (3.8% is the lowest I have ever seen), will check for any too close paraphrasing on the spot check. It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Noted.

Scope (Criteria 3a, 3b) Y

My concern with the scope is that there doesn't appear to be any sources which discuss the topic as its own separate subject. Every reference appears to discuss the subtopics (aquaculture, religion, art etc.), meaning that according to WP:GNG, the topic isn't suitable for its own article. It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:36, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

I've added an Overview for you to indicate the overall scope of the article, with sources that span the whole thing and indicate the many connections between fishing for food and other aspects of society including attitudes and beliefs. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:41, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

I just had a quick look at this before bed, and I think this new section quells any notability concerns. The sourcing looks very good and it significantly improves the readability of the article, making it less disjointed.

I have only one minor concern, I think the new section reads a bit like a second lead, especially with the heading "Overview". I think a more precise and useful title would be something like "Connections between uses". I also think it should be moved near the end of the article, since it is more appropriate to discuss the connections between the uses when the uses themselves have already been laid out.

It certainly needs to go up front as its job is to show the scope of the subject. I don't necessarily agree with your proposed title for the same reason. The reason for the connections aspect of the overview/scope is to demonstrate that this is a single coherent subject, all its parts tightly interwoven. Let's try 'Scope' as a compromise heading: it's clear and it doesn't sound like the lead.

Finally, to tie everything together, a sentence could be added to the end of the lead to introduce the idea that the uses interact with one another. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:57, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Added.

As for whether it should be merged into the ethnoichthyology article, I agree that they should be separate articles due to the distinction between the domain and the science, and it seems that you and WriterArtistDC did agree on that in the end. It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:36, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:55, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

I am pinging WriterArtistDC (talk · contribs) because I thought their contribution to the last review was substantial, and would like to see if they have any more scope concerns. It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:36, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks. I believe I've addressed their concerns, which did not require much change to the article, i.e. there was a lot of heat for not much light. I hope that won't happen this time, and in particular that you'll police any interventions carefully. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:53, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

@Chiswick Chap Thank you for this, I left a comment specifically regarding the new section, but I'll continue the main review tomorrow now that I see no issues with notability/scope. It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:00, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

I see nothing to change what I wrote in the GA1 discussion, which has mysteriously been hidden inside a collapse box. An agreement to disagree is not a resolution, it only expresses my lack of interest in further discussion. WriterArtistDC (talk) 02:48, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi @WriterArtistDC, I read through that discussion, but didn't see any points which hadn't been implemented in the article or adequately explained. Nonetheless, I pinged you just in case you may be interested in this discussion, or have any further points. Of course you are not obligated to. It is a wonderful world (talk) 11:08, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Stable (Criterion 5) Y

Media Y

Tags (Criterion 6a) Y

File:Matsya_painting.jpg has a syntax error on the tag It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Fixed.

File:Mandarin Fish by Bian Shoumin.jpg, File:Van Gogh - Stillleben mit Makrelen, Zitronen und Tomaten.jpeg and File:Haeckel Ostraciontes.jpg need tags specifying why they are public domain in the US It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Added.

Captions (Criterion 6b) Y

Link "Rhenock Monastery" It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Jaws, the first of several terrifying films of the same name: "terrifying films" is not neutral, something like "horror films" would work. It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Link "Menna" and "Thebes" It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

4th-5th: Hyphen -> en dash It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Link "Medici Villa" It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Link "Bian Shoumin" It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Link "carp" It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

I've done these for you. Minor items like dashes can be formatted by reviewers to save time documenting them.

Suggestions (not needed for GA promotion)

The reference section is quite inconsistently formatted, some of the publishers are linked, some not, same with journal names and abbreviations etc. It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, life. Linked all the publishers that have articles. Found 1 journal to link. Removed a few abbreviations.

The web references would benefit from archive links so they are not vulnerable to link rot. It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Ran the iabot.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.