Talk:Huginn and Muninn/GA1

GA Review

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I will begin reviewing this article and make straightforward changes as I go (explanations in edit summaries). Please revert any changes I make where I inadvertently change the meaning. I will post queries below. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 07:08, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

The names of the ravens are sometimes modernly anglicized.. - 'modernly' looks odd and possibly redundant. I'd say, "The names of the ravens have at times been anglicized.." - the perfect tense gives the impression it has been and is still done.

Huginn and Muninn are attested in the Poetic Edda - I am not sure what sense you are using the word 'attested' here. Would "Huginn and Muninn appear in the Poetic Edda" or "Huginn and Muninn are written about in the Poetic Edda" or something?

Huginn and Muninn are attested in the Poetic Edda; compiled in the 13th century from earlier traditional sources, the Prose Edda and Heimskringla; written in the 13th century by Snorri Sturluson, in the Third Grammatical Treatise; compiled in the 13th century by Óláfr Þórðarson, and in the poetry of skalds. - actually this whole bit confuses me a little - do you mean they appear in the Poetic Edda which was derived from the Prose Edda and the Heimskringla, and then in the Third Grammatical Treatise, and the poetry?

Vendel era helmet plates (from the 6th or 7th century) depict a helmeted figure holding a spear and a shield... - would be good to add where these plates were found or came from (if known(?

a disguised Odin expresses that he fears that they may disappear. - "a disguised Odin expresses that he fears that they may be lost to him?" (i.e. rather than vanish or go invisible)

Hello and thanks for taking the time to review my article here! I will address your points as they were raised:

1. Anglicization: it's possible that a non-modern anglicization could have occurred at some point with Norse-English contact, therefore although it may look weird it is likely necessary for the purpose of clarity.
2. "Attested": Correct, this is the most concise way of saying "these books say this about the ravens." The Poetic Edda, Prose Edda, Third Grammatical Treatise, etc, are separate works and each of them feature references to Huginn and Muninn. In fact, as far as I am aware, what you see covered in that section is all that has survived down to us today.
3. It's not exactly clear to me where these were found. Lindow doesn't say. Simek seems to say that the helmet was found in "a Swedish grave." So I suppose we'll go with that.
4. "Disappear"—good catch. Adjusted per suggestion.

Thanks again! :bloodofox: (talk) 08:07, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

• More to come (busy IRL so ducking in and out off computer):

Migration Period golden bracteates - any information on where the ones which depict the ravens have been found?

An adjective or occupation for Anthony Winterbourne would be helpful.

I am wondering whether fylgja and hamingja should be in italics (i.e. foreign enough)

I think maybe moving Valravn and Hrafnsmál into a small background section adding context, which had a sentence or two noting the importance of ravens in symbolism in Europe as well, in a section at the top would be better than as links at the bottom.

Are there any famous latter-day depictions? Famous paintings or are they (for instance) mentioned in Wagners' Ring at all?

1. Bracteates are found in Norway, Sweden, Denmark, England and at least 20 have been found south of Denmark: Updated. Simek doesn't provide specifics as to what types are found where and his data is questionable since he doesn't put a date on it and none of the references he provides for the entry date beyond 1983, but I've worded it in a way that likely continues to represent the situation.
2. I presume Winterbourne is a scholar. Otherwise I don't have any information on him; I don't have a copy of any of his works myself.
3. We have an English cognate to fylgja: fetch, and if glossing occurs for the word it's usually with this term. Unfortunately our current articles (Fylgja and Fetch (folklore)), dubiously, do not draw this connection. Anyway, I suppose it's best to stick to fylgja now. It doesn't matter to me whether they're italicized or not, but I prefer to avoid it.
4. Regarding valravn and Hrafnsmál: information regarding the valravn is extremely scarce (seemingly non-existent in the English world outside of Stallybrass' translation of Grimm) and I have yet to see anyone directly connecting the valravn and Huginn and Muninn. In my opinion, to avoid original research and synthesis, it's probably best to keep these links where they are. They're related in that they all feature supernatural ravens in Norse society and that's about all we can say here.
5. Simek notes that Richard Wagner "sees them as symbols of a new world (similar to Noah's doves) in his poem On the 25th of August 1870)" and notes that Huginn and Muninn are frequently depicted with Odin. However, other than some scant mentions here and there, I have yet to come up with enough material to warrant a "modern influence" section (something I usually try to do early on), but I hope that changes in the future. :bloodofox: (talk) 18:42, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Okay, hauling out the criteria....

1. Well written?:

Prose quality:

Manual of Style compliance:

2. Factually accurate and verifiable?:

References to sources:

Citations to reliable sources, where required:

No original research:

3. Broad in coverage?:

Major aspects:

Focused:

4. Reflects a neutral point of view?:

Fair representation without bias:

5. Reasonably stable?

No edit wars, etc. (Vandalism does not count against GA):

6. Illustrated by images, when possible and appropriate?:

Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

• Images need WP:ALT text.

Overall:

Pass or Fail:

The prose was fairly straightforward to massage it a little to make it flow better, and could do with a little more but is fine for GA now. I think this is pretty comprehensive for GA. If there is a discussion somewhere on ravens in northern european culture and symbolism then it might help set some background but is not essential. Ditto modern depictions, but passes now. Well done and interesting topic. Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:41, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the time and effort you've put helping out with and looking into this article! I'm glad you enjoyed it. If you're interested, I also have Bifröst up for review. :bloodofox: (talk) 19:56, 15 October 2009 (UTC)