Talk:Hottinguer family

Request Edit

I have a WP:COI as a paid consultant to Hottinger Group and in accordance with official Wikipedia policy for the subjects of articles to request corrections and updates [1], I propose the following be reviewed by an independent editor(s) to assure the suggestions meet Wikipedia standards.

Edit request

1. Add a new introduction to the article. moving the current introduction further down in the article: "The Hottinguer family (also spelled "Hottinger") is an aristocratic Swiss and French family tracing its origins to the 14th century and known for banking and finance since the 18th century. The family's primary 21st century finance enterprise is the Hottinger Group. The family traces its origins to the town of Zöllikon, near Zurich, where the name first appeared in town records in 1362. Hans, Heinrich and Rudolf Hottinger were burghers of the city in 1401. Following five generations of doctors and pastors, Johannes Hottinger, born in 1712, moved the family into the business world. Jean-Conrad, born in 1764, established the family as a banking dynasty. In September 1786, he joined with a Parisian family to create the bank “Rougemont, Hottinger & Cie.” During the time of Napoleon, Jean-Conrad was named "Baron of the Empire," in September 1810. His eldest son, Jean-Henri, took over the family's bank in January 1833 and greatly expanded operations internationally, including in America, Russia and Mexico. Following Jean-Henri, his son Rodolphe Hottinguer took over the bank. During the following four generations, into the 21st century, the family continued running financial institutions. As of 2019, the family's banking interest is run by the Hottinger Group." Why? This is an overview of the entire article, which is currently missing. The current introduction is actually only the first chapter of the history of the family. 2. Move the entire opening/introductory paragraph - from "Hottinger first appears in the annals of the town of Zöllikon, near Zurich, in 1362" through to "...taking an active role in the region's political, cultural and religious life all the way into the 18th century" into the main content of the article as the new, first sub-section of the article and - title this new sub-section as "Origins" Why? This is not an overview or an introduction to the article. It's merely the first chapter, about the origin of the family in a specific city in Switzerland and its role in that city. It should be a separate content section, not the article's opening overview paragraph. 3. Remove the template atop the article stating that the article may need a rewrite to meet quality standards. I believe the new overview in lieu of the current lead solves the biggest problem with the article following an encyclopedic format. 4. In "Mergers and the new Hottinger Group (2015 – present)" - Add the following revised language and the new citation at the end of this paragraph: Following the death of Baron Henri Hottinger, his son, Frédéric Hottinger inherited the vast majority of his father's estate, in particular, the international wealth management business Groupe Financière Hottinger & Co. Delete this language: "...and a majority stake in Lyford Bank Bahamas which was sold to Ansbacher Private Bank in February 2019." Why? This adds a citation to the current unsourced language. The new language also removes unsourced claims about Lyford Bank Bahamas. 5. In "Mergers and the new Hottinger Group (2015 – present)": Change: The Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) approved the merger of Hottinger and Archimedes in July 2016 with Hottinger Group maintaining offices in London, New York, Dublin and Geneva. to: The Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) approved the merger of Groupe Financière Hottinger & Co and Archimedes in July 2016 to become the Hottinger Group, maintaining offices in London, New York, Dublin and Geneva. Why? Clarifies the name of two entities that merged and the name of the new entity. 6. Correct citation format at end of same final section to: Frédéric Hottinger remains a shareholder in Hottinger Group and became a board member of Iteram Investments 7. Above "References", add a new section: Additional Reading J. Bellamy-Brown (2003), “Credit-Suisse Hottinguer, accroit son assise en France”, Banque Magazine, Issue 650, pp. 32-33 H. Chervrillon (1997), “Moi, Rodolphe Hottinguer, banquier privé suisse” , L’expension, Issue 554, pp. 94-95 “Dans l’hôtel du baron Hottinguer”(2003), Connaissance des arts, Issue 611, pp. 62-67 P.J. Lehmann (2005), “Les Hottinguer, Banquiers classiques de la Haute banque”, La vie financière, Issue 3142, pp.44-47 A. Malvoisin (2003), “Hottinguer, tout feu tout flamme”, Le journal des arts, p. 25 Gérard, Max (1968). Messieurs Hottinguer Banquiers à Paris, Vol. I&II. Draeger Frères. S. Vernes (1973), 18 rue de Courcelles et Guermantes, Paris, Jean Grassin. B. du Vignaud (2003), “L’hôtel Hottinguer, rue de la Baume”, in Christie’s (ed.) Ancienne Collection du baron Hottinguer provenant de son hôtel particulier de la rue de la Baume, Paris, Christie’s, pp. 9-10 References

BC1278 (talk) 19:53, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Reply 9-JAN-2020

Reply from Spintendo

Additional references requested   Only one reference was provided from a reliable source - Le Temps. Please provide more references from those types of sources. With regards to the proposed lead section, although sources are not necessary, those sources must exist within the article itself. In the case of this review, please provide the already existing sources from the article which confirm the claims proposed here. Any clarification(s) should be placed in a new edit request below, or placed into the edit request above according to the guidelines at WP:REDACTED. Thank you!

Regards,  Spintendo  08:58, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Reply Jan 9

I suggest first addressing the proposed items that provide new sources and references. Then, once these are added to the article, I can circle back and show how all the sources for the proposed overview are in the revised article. Here are the proposed items:

Edit request

1. In "Mergers and the new Hottinger Group (2015 – present)" - Add the following revised language and the new citation at the end of this paragraph: Following the death of Baron Henri Hottinger, his son, Frédéric Hottinger inherited the vast majority of his father's estate, in particular, the international wealth management business Groupe Financière Hottinger & Co. Delete this language: "...and a majority stake in Lyford Bank Bahamas which was sold to Ansbacher Private Bank in February 2019." Why? This adds a citation to the current unsourced language. The new language also removes unsourced claims about Lyford Bank Bahamas. 2. In "Mergers and the new Hottinger Group (2015 – present)": Change: The Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) approved the merger of Hottinger and Archimedes in July 2016 with Hottinger Group maintaining offices in London, New York, Dublin and Geneva. to: The Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) approved the merger of Groupe Financière Hottinger & Co and Archimedes in July 2016 to become the Hottinger Group, maintaining offices in London, New York, Dublin and Geneva. Why? Clarifies the name of two entities that merged and the name of the new entity. 3. Correct citation formatting at end of same final section to: Frédéric Hottinger remains a shareholder in Hottinger Group and became a board member of Iteram Investments 4. Above "References", add a new section: Additional Reading J. Bellamy-Brown (2003), “Credit-Suisse Hottinguer, accroit son assise en France”, Banque Magazine, Issue 650, pp. 32-33 H. Chervrillon (1997), “Moi, Rodolphe Hottinguer, banquier privé suisse” , L’expension, Issue 554, pp. 94-95 “Dans l’hôtel du baron Hottinguer”(2003), Connaissance des arts, Issue 611, pp. 62-67 P.J. Lehmann (2005), “Les Hottinguer, Banquiers classiques de la Haute banque”, La vie financière, Issue 3142, pp.44-47 A. Malvoisin (2003), “Hottinguer, tout feu tout flamme”, Le journal des arts, p. 25 Gérard, Max (1968). Messieurs Hottinguer Banquiers à Paris, Vol. I&II. Draeger Frères. S. Vernes (1973), 18 rue de Courcelles et Guermantes, Paris, Jean Grassin. B. du Vignaud (2003), “L’hôtel Hottinguer, rue de la Baume”, in Christie’s (ed.) Ancienne Collection du baron Hottinguer provenant de son hôtel particulier de la rue de la Baume, Paris, Christie’s, pp. 9-10 References

BC1278 (talk) 19:44, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

I addressed the addition of the proposed items that provided new sources and references in point one of my reply message. That point stated "Only one reference was provided from a reliable source - Le Temps. Please provide more references from those types of sources." Regards,  Spintendo  21:42, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

 Update: I've added the Le Temps reference as well as the Wealth Manager reference as a {{cite interview}}, and added a reference for the Lyford claim. I believe further references originating from just the family should be limited — this includes wire services that publish press releases and interviews. Regards,  Spintendo  23:19, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Reply Jan. 10

I think perhaps it's best to address some of these one at a time, so I can understand anything else that's needed:

1. In "Mergers and the new Hottinger Group (2015 – present)":

Delete: "The Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) approved the merger of Hottinger and Archimedes in July 2016 with Hottinger Group maintaining offices in London, New York, Dublin and Geneva."

Insert: The Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) approved the merger of Groupe Financière Hottinger & Co and Archimedes in July 2016 to become the Hottinger Group, maintaining offices in London, New York, Dublin and Geneva.

Why?

The current sentence is incorrect. Groupe Financière Hottinger & Co and Archimedes merged to form Hottinger Group. "Hottinger" (the exact entity is unspecified in the article) and Achimedes did not merge with Hottinger Group - Hottinger Group was the entity formed as a result of the merger of Groupe Financière Hottinger & Co and Archimedes.

@Spintendo: While the sentences are very similar, they are not the same because the current sentence states that there was a merger "with" an existing entity called Hottinger Group, when in fact, Hottinger Group was a new entity formed because of the merger. Here is a proposed variation that changes just a couple of words to make the sentence accurate: "The Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) approved the merger of Hottinger and Archimedes in July 2016 to form the Hottinger Group maintaining offices in London, New York, Dublin and Geneva." I have deleted the words "with" and replaced it with "to form" in he suggested sentence. I've also corrected the citation format.

2. Any particular reason not to include "Additional Reading"? The alternative would be to integrate these sources into the article as back-up citations. But I thought it might be more useful for a serious researcher to see the French-language books and print periodicals presented this way. BC1278 (talk) 20:05, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

References

Reply 10-JAN-2020

1. The sentence says "The Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) approved the merger of Hottinger" (meaning Groupe Financière Hottinger & Co) "and Archimedes in July 2016" (insert comma here) "with Hottinger Group maintaining offices in London, New York, Dublin and Geneva." Nothing that you've proposed differs from how the sentence is stated.
2. The further reading section does not contain {{ISBN}} or {{OCLC}} numbers.
3. Reminder: New edit requests should make use of a new {{request edit}} template.
   
    Spintendo  03:00, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

Reply Jan. 14

In response to the request above from Spintendo for additional information regarding the proposed "Further Reading", the list below now contains URLs for the periodicals and/or EAN or ASIN numbers foe the books. Only one periodical was unavailable online. I'd propose the list be added above References.

Additional Reading

• J. Bellamy-Brown (2003), “Credit-Suisse Hottinguer, accroit son assise en France”, Banque Magazine, Issue 650, pp. 32-33 [2]

• H. Chervrillon (1997), “Moi, Rodolphe Hottinguer, banquier privé suisse” , L’expension, Issue 554, pp. 94-95 [3]

• “Dans l’hôtel du baron Hottinguer”(2003), Connaissance des arts, Issue 611, pp. 62-67 [4]

• P.J. Lehmann (2005), “Les Hottinguer, Banquiers classiques de la Haute banque”, La vie financière, Issue 3142, pp.44-47

• A. Malvoisin (2003), “Hottinguer, tout feu tout flamme”, Le journal des arts, p. 25 [5]

• Gérard, Max (1968). Messieurs Hottinguer Banquiers à Paris, Vol. I&II. Draeger Frères, EAN-13 # 2000065635665

• S. Vernes (1973), 18 rue de Courcelles et Guermantes, Paris, Jean Grassin, ASIN: B0018G95HE

• B. du Vignaud (2003), “L’hôtel Hottinguer, rue de la Baume”, in Christie’s (ed.) Ancienne Collection du baron Hottinguer provenant de son hôtel particulier de la rue de la Baume, Paris, Christie’s, pp. 9-10, ASIN: B00113BKTU

Thanks for your consideration. BC1278 (talk) 15:41, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Request edit

Replying to this comment, above, from User: Spintendo: #The sentence says "The Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) approved the merger of Hottinger" (meaning Groupe Financière Hottinger & Co) "and Archimedes in July 2016" (insert comma here) "with Hottinger Group maintaining offices in London, New York, Dublin and Geneva." Nothing that you've proposed differs from how the sentence is stated.

@Spintendo: While the sentences are very similar, they are not the same because the current sentence states that there was a merger "with" an existing entity called Hottinger Group, when in fact, Hottinger Group was a new entity formed because of the merger. Here is a proposed variation that changes just a couple of words to make the sentence accurate: "The Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) approved the merger of Hottinger and Archimedes in July 2016 to form the Hottinger Group maintaining offices in London, New York, Dublin and Geneva." I have deleted the words "with" and replaced it with "to form" in the suggested sentence. I've also corrected the citation format. BC1278 (talk) 21:59, 11 January 2020 (UTC)`

References

 Done  Spintendo  23:28, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

Please note

that User:Markjamesrobertson74 who has edited this article as an SPA has been blocked as a sockpuppet. He appears to be closely related to this family [ https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?diff=757736698&oldid=696607143&title=Mark_Robertson&type=revision]. I suggest that any paid editors on this page make a full and complete disclosure on whether they have any affiliation with this editor, and to withdraw if they do. Otherwise it's a pretty straightforward case of meatpuppeting and avoiding a block, i.e. MJR can't edit anymore so he hires somebody to edit for him. Money does not buy an exemption from a sockpuppet block. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 05:00, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

As disclosed above, I was hired by the Hottinger Group, though their marketing department. I don't know the identity of the user mentioned by User: Smallbones and my agreement with all my clients includes a provision that as long as I am working for them, they may not edit or participate in any article involving the subject or they breach their agreement with me. I am not coordinating with any other Wikipedia accounts and my proposals, such as suggesting an overview lead, which the article now lacks, are being made independently by me, although I am keeping the company appraised of what I'm proposing, mainly to avoid mistakes. So I am coordinating with the company as their representative. Nonetheless, the similarity of the user name of the blocked account to that of the CEO, as pointed out by Smallbones, is noteworthy, even though I've had no contact with him. That said, I believe the block is to punish the specific user for improper behavior, not the company, which of course, has many shareholders and employees. So at first blush, I don't think the company is precluded from hiring an editor who properly discloses COI and submits all proposals for review by independent editors. But I can't say I've ever run across a situation like this, though, so I am putting an Admin Help tag atop this section so someone with more experience can decide what to do. BC1278 (talk) 22:34, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

A minor correction - I did not say anything about anybody being a CEO. On the other hand, it's pretty hard to miss, if you just look at the article's edit history for 3 minutes (do you have that little gadget that marks the blocked editors?) The red link to User:Markjamesrobertson1974 as well as the block of User:Markjamesrobertson74 is pretty obvious as well. Just googling "Hollinger Group" gives you the name of the sock at the top of the "team" page. The sockfarm wasn't especially big - 4 or 5 socks - but most of them are Hollinger SPAs. And there are 10 or so Hollinger family articles now on Wikipedia mostly saying the same stuff. The article itself is horrible - you should be ashamed of having your name associated with it. There's a dark background to this as well - though I haven't gotten through the walls of text on all 10 articles - they don't seem to mention the Ponzi scheme and the bankruptcy. We need to be careful not to promote any firm, but that kind of firm ...

Finally, the argument about a company not being blocked if the CEO is blocked is nonsense. It's a small family firm - the Board of Directors is only 3 people. They have Board meetings on the elevator. An ordinary joe sockpuppet cannot pay a friend to meatpuppet for him, a business sock can't order his secretary to meatpuppet for him. Why should a CEO be allowed to order his marketing department to hire a meatpuppet?

@BC1278: do the right thing and nominate all the Hollinger articles for deletion, then withdraw from them totally. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 04:26, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

There is no actual administrative action required here yet, so I'm closing the template, but I will also offer an opinion regarding BC1278's situation here. Edits made to the article as part of his job would now almost certainly be considered proxy editing on behalf of a blocked or banned user, and would justify a lengthy if not indefinite block. However, requested edits on this talkpage would end up being implemented (or not, as the case may be) by users with no affiliation to the family, who could legitimately claim to have an independent reason for making such edits. My advice, therefore - to BC1278 and to any other employees of the Hottinger Group - would be to adhere strictly to the requested edit process as well as the usual paid disclosure rules. Yunshui ^雲_水 09:06, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

@Smallbones: Does this opinion from Yunshui satisfy your concerns? If not, I will bring the matter to the attention of COIN or ANI. BC1278 (talk) 15:16, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Request Edit

In response to the request above from Spintendo for additional ISBN information regarding sources for the proposed "Further Reading", the list below now contains URLs for the periodicals and/or EAN or ASIN numbers for the books. Only one periodical was unavailable online. I'd propose the list be added above References.

Additional Reading

• J. Bellamy-Brown (2003), “Credit-Suisse Hottinguer, accroit son assise en France”, Banque Magazine, Issue 650, pp. 32-33 [6]

• H. Chervrillon (1997), “Moi, Rodolphe Hottinguer, banquier privé suisse” , L’expension, Issue 554, pp. 94-95 [7]

• “Dans l’hôtel du baron Hottinguer”(2003), Connaissance des arts, Issue 611, pp. 62-67 [8]

• P.J. Lehmann (2005), “Les Hottinguer, Banquiers classiques de la Haute banque”, La vie financière, Issue 3142, pp.44-47

• A. Malvoisin (2003), “Hottinguer, tout feu tout flamme”, Le journal des arts, p. 25 [9]

• Gérard, Max (1968). Messieurs Hottinguer Banquiers à Paris, Vol. I&II. Draeger Frères, EAN-13 # 2000065635665

• S. Vernes (1973), 18 rue de Courcelles et Guermantes, Paris, Jean Grassin, ASIN: B0018G95HE

• B. du Vignaud (2003), “L’hôtel Hottinguer, rue de la Baume”, in Christie’s (ed.) Ancienne Collection du baron Hottinguer provenant de son hôtel particulier de la rue de la Baume, Paris, Christie’s, pp. 9-10, ASIN: B00113BKTU

BC1278 (talk) 18:03, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Reply 15-JAN-2020

  Unable to implement  

• The sources in the proposed Additional reading section have not been formatted using the same style that the majority of sources in the article use.

Regards,  Spintendo  20:45, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Reply 22-JAN-2020

As requested immediately above, I have reformated the citations using the citation tool from the Wikipedia toolbar to determine the fields. To the extent that citations in the current article do not match, it is because the article's citations are breaking format recommended by the toolbar. I am happy to suggest new citation formats for the main article, too, to match the correct format presented below. Please see COI disclosures above. I'd request the following be added above References. Thanks for your review! BC1278 (talk) 17:46, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Additional Reading

• Bellamy-Brown, J. (2003). "Credit-Suisse Hottinguer, accroit son assise en France". Banque Magazine (650): 32–33. Retrieved 22 January 2020.
• Chervrillon, H. (1997). "Moi, Rodolphe Hottinguer, banquier privé suisse". L’expension (554): 94–95. Retrieved 22 January 2020.
• "Dans l'hôtel du baron Hottinguer". Connaissance des arts (611): 62–67. 2003. Retrieved 22 January 2020.
• Lehmann, P.J. (2005). "Les Hottinguer, Banquiers classiques de la Haute banque". La vie financière (3142): 44–47.
• Malvoisin, A. (2003). "Hottinguer, tout feu tout flamme". Le journal des arts: 25. Retrieved 22 January 2020.
• Gérard, Max (1968). Messieurs Hottinguer Banquiers à Paris. Draeger Frères. EAN-13 # 2000065635665.
• Vernes, S. (1973). 18 rue de Courcelles et Guermantes, Paris. Jean Grassin. ASIN: B0018G95HE.
• du Vignaud, B. (2003). Ancienne Collection du baron Hottinguer provenant de son hôtel particulier de la rue de la Baume, Paris. Christie’s. pp. 9–10. ASIN: B00113BKTU

— Preceding unsigned comment added by BC1278 (talk • contribs) 15:42, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Please provide {{ISBN}}'s or {{OCLC}} information for those without any other identifying characteristics. Reasons for why these additional readings should be added are also to be given. Those which use ASINs should use {{ASIN}} (or |ASIN=). These all need to be placed using CS1. These should be placed in a new edit request below with a new request template. Regards,  Spintendo  23:16, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

Request Edits March 16

As disclosed above, I have a conflict of interest as a paid consultant to the Hottinger Group.

1. In the section, "The modern era (1950–2015), international expansion and decline of the Swiss bank", at the end of paragraph two, after the final sentence, please add the following citation. There is no citation at present. The sentence itself remains unchanged:

The Banque Hottinguer in Paris was sold to the Credit Suisse in 1997.

2. In the section, "The modern era (1950–2015), international expansion and decline of the Swiss bank", please remove the final paragraph: “The Swiss division of Hottinger Banking Group closed its doors for the last time in October 2015, due to the increased regulatory demands in Switzerland. "

And replace it with:

“The Swiss division of Hottinger - Banque Hottinger & Cie SA - was forced into liquidation by Swiss Financial Market Supervisory Authority in October 2015 because of “sustained losses” and “unresolved litigation.”

Explanation: The current sentence has no citation. The new sentence has a citation and accurately reflects the source.

3. As paragraph four in the section "The modern era (1950–2015), international expansion and decline of the Swiss bank", please insert:

The Hottinger family amassed a substantial art collection. Some of it was sold in a 2003 auction at Christies.

Explanation: There have been articles and books about the art collection. It seems an interetsing part of the family's history.

4. Insert the following as the new lead for the article.

"The Hottinguer family (also spelled "Hottinger") is an aristocratic Swiss and French family tracing its origins to the 14th century. It has been known for banking and finance since the 18th century, starting with Jean-Conrad Hottinger. The family's primary 21st century financial enterprise is the Hottinger Group.

Explanation: This is is an overview of the entire article. All the facts come from the text of the article. There is one new citation, not currently in the article, from a book from Oxford University Press.

5. Reposition the entire current lead as the new first section of the "Contents" of the article, rather than as the lead. The proposal is for it to appear on top of the section “Five Generations of Doctors & Pastors.” The text below the proposed new section header is entirely unchanged.

Origins

'Hottinger' first appears in the annals of the town of Zöllikon, near Zurich, in 1362. The town had recently joined the Swiss Confederation, and was poised to become a thriving center for trade. In 1401, three members of the Hottinger family were named Burghers of the city. Their names Hans, Heinrich and Rudolf – or, in their French variants, Jean, Henri and Rodolphe – have marked the family dynasty for over 500 years. During the 15th and 16th centuries, their descendants oversaw the canton's progressive transformation from a rural to a financial economy, taking an active role in the region's political, cultural and religious life all the way into the 18th century.

Explanation: this is the earliest chapter of the family history. It is not an overview of the article, which is what a Wikipedia lead should be. So it should be structured within the "Contents" rather than as the lead.

Thanks for your consideration. BC1278 (talk) 19:55, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

References

Reply 19-MAR-2020

  Unable to implement  

• Reposition the entire current lead as the new first section of the "Contents" of the article, rather than as the lead. The proposal is for it to appear on top of the section “Five Generations of Doctors & Pastors.” The text below the proposed new section header is entirely unchanged.
• These, and other directions in the request, are unclear. If possible, a sequence of directions should be numbered for clarity. For example:

1. Create new section with the header New Section.
2. Take the fourth sentence of the third paragraph of the Old section section and place it as the first sentence of the first paragraph of the New Section, etc.

Regards,  Spintendo  12:21, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Reply March 19, 2020

Hi, as per Spintendo's request, here are the proposals restated:

1. Insert the following as the new first paragraph of this entire article:

The Hottinguer family (also spelled "Hottinger") is an aristocratic Swiss and French family tracing its origins to the 14th century. It has been known for banking and finance since the 18th century, starting with Jean-Conrad Hottinger. The family's primary 21st century financial enterprise is the Hottinger Group.

Note: This is is an overview of the entire article. It becomes the new lead. There is no overview currently in the article as is best practice. The proposed text contains one new citation, not currently in the article, from a book from Oxford University Press.

2. Delete the following, which is currently the first paragraph of the article:

'Hottinger' first appears in the annals of the town of Zöllikon, near Zurich, in 1362. The town had recently joined the Swiss Confederation, and was poised to become a thriving center for trade. In 1401, three members of the Hottinger family were named Burghers of the city. Their names Hans, Heinrich and Rudolf – or, in their French variants, Jean, Henri and Rodolphe – have marked the family dynasty for over 500 years. During the 15th and 16th centuries, their descendants oversaw the canton's progressive transformation from a rural to a financial economy, taking an active role in the region's political, cultural and religious life all the way into the 18th century.

Note: this content is not a proper lead for the article. It is not an overview. So I propose it be deleted as the lead. It can be used further down in the article.

3. Insert the following as a New Section. This would become the second paragraph of the article, directly below the new first paragraph lead:

Origins

'Hottinger' first appears in the annals of the town of Zöllikon, near Zurich, in 1362. The town had recently joined the Swiss Confederation, and was poised to become a thriving center for trade. In 1401, three members of the Hottinger family were named Burghers of the city. Their names Hans, Heinrich and Rudolf – or, in their French variants, Jean, Henri and Rodolphe – have marked the family dynasty for over 500 years. During the 15th and 16th centuries, their descendants oversaw the canton's progressive transformation from a rural to a financial economy, taking an active role in the region's political, cultural and religious life all the way into the 18th century.

Note: The text is identical to what is already in the article. This is the first chronological event of the article. But I propose it be a new section because it is more suitable as one of the chronological events in the history of the family than as the lead of the entire article.

Many thanks for your consideration. BC1278 (talk) 01:23, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

References

Reply 20-MAR-2020

Thank you for the sequencing. It makes your request much clearer. I see two problems with the current request.

1. The new lead section does not follow the guideline that information contained in the lead should be referenced in the main body of the article, and that ref tags should be kept out of the lead.
2. The new lead section mentions the Hottinguer Group, therefore bringing it to the forefront, which I suspect is the main reason for the request. Unfortunately, the subject of the article is not the "family's primary 21st century financial enterprise". Since we have to work within the confines of the article we currently have, refocusing the article's lead is territory that should be treaded lightly. For anything more drastic, I would suggest WP:AFC.

Regards,  Spintendo  05:46, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

Notes

Reply March 23 2020

Hi, I think the proposals below address the concerns of Spintendo, above.

1. Insert the following as the new first paragraph of this entire article:

The Hottinguer family (also spelled "Hottinger") is an aristocratic Swiss and French family tracing its origins to the 14th century. It has been known for banking and finance since the 18th century, starting with Jean-Conrad Hottinger, and has remained active in finance through the 21st century.

Note: This deletes references since all content is in the article already. It avoids mention of any specific company but gets across the most remarkable thing about this family - they've stayed active in finance for almost 300 years. Alternatively, I could do a detailed summation of the article, with highlights of each of the major sections. But that will be quite long.

2. Delete the following, which is currently the first paragraph of the article:

'Hottinger' first appears in the annals of the town of Zöllikon, near Zurich, in 1362. The town had recently joined the Swiss Confederation, and was poised to become a thriving center for trade. In 1401, three members of the Hottinger family were named Burghers of the city. Their names Hans, Heinrich and Rudolf – or, in their French variants, Jean, Henri and Rodolphe – have marked the family dynasty for over 500 years. During the 15th and 16th centuries, their descendants oversaw the canton's progressive transformation from a rural to a financial economy, taking an active role in the region's political, cultural and religious life all the way into the 18th century.

Note: this content is not a proper lead for the article. It is not an overview. So I propose it be deleted as the lead. It can be used further down in the article.

3. Insert the following as a New Section. This would become the second paragraph of the article, directly below the new first paragraph lead:

Origins

'Hottinger' first appears in the annals of the town of Zöllikon, near Zurich, in 1362. The town had recently joined the Swiss Confederation, and was poised to become a thriving center for trade. In 1401, three members of the Hottinger family were named Burghers of the city. Their names Hans, Heinrich and Rudolf – or, in their French variants, Jean, Henri and Rodolphe – have marked the family dynasty for over 500 years. During the 15th and 16th centuries, their descendants oversaw the canton's progressive transformation from a rural to a financial economy, taking an active role in the region's political, cultural and religious life all the way into the 18th century.

Note: The text is identical to what is already in the article, currently the lead This is the first chronological event of the article. But I propose it be a new section because it is more suitable as one of the chronological events in the history of the family than as the lead of the entire article.

Thank you for your consideration. BC1278 (talk) 16:07, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

References

Reply 23-MAR-2020

  Edit request declined  

• The text shown under the proposed Origins section cites French Wikipedia as a source (ref tag #3).

Regards,  Spintendo  16:38, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Relpy 23 March 2020

As per Spintendo's comment, someone who doesn't know Wikipedia probably thought they were being helpful by making people aware of the existence of the French Wikipedia article (I merely did a copy/paste of the text and sources on the article as it now exists on Wikipedia, in order to minimize reviewer work.) That citation is unneeded for factual support. All the facts come from the book cited at the end of the paragraph. I am correcting that mistake and submitting the proposals again.

1. Insert the following as the new first paragraph of this entire article:

The Hottinguer family (also spelled "Hottinger") is an aristocratic Swiss and French family tracing its origins to the 14th century. It has been known for banking and finance since the 18th century, starting with Jean-Conrad Hottinger, and has remained active in finance through the 21st century.

Note: This deletes references since all content is in the article already. It avoids mention of any specific company but gets across the most remarkable thing about this family - they've stayed active in finance for almost 300 years. Alternatively, I could do a detailed summation of the article, with highlights of each of the major sections. But that will be quite long.

2. Delete the following, which is currently the first paragraph of the article:

'Hottinger' first appears in the annals of the town of Zöllikon, near Zurich, in 1362. The town had recently joined the Swiss Confederation, and was poised to become a thriving center for trade. In 1401, three members of the Hottinger family were named Burghers of the city. Their names Hans, Heinrich and Rudolf – or, in their French variants, Jean, Henri and Rodolphe – have marked the family dynasty for over 500 years. During the 15th and 16th centuries, their descendants oversaw the canton's progressive transformation from a rural to a financial economy, taking an active role in the region's political, cultural and religious life all the way into the 18th century.

Note: this content is not a proper lead for the article. It is not an overview. So I propose it be deleted as the lead. It can be used further down in the article.

3. Insert the following as a New Section. This would become the second paragraph of the article, directly below the new first paragraph lead:

Origins

'Hottinger' first appears in the annals of the town of Zöllikon, near Zurich, in 1362. The town had recently joined the Swiss Confederation, and was poised to become a thriving center for trade. In 1401, three members of the Hottinger family were named Burghers of the city. Their names Hans, Heinrich and Rudolf – or, in their French variants, Jean, Henri and Rodolphe – have marked the family dynasty for over 500 years. During the 15th and 16th centuries, their descendants oversaw the canton's progressive transformation from a rural to a financial economy, taking an active role in the region's political, cultural and religious life all the way into the 18th century.

Note: The text is identical to what is already in the article, currently the lead, except that it removes the improper use of French Wikipedia as a source. This is the first chronological event of the article. But I propose it be a new section because it is more suitable as one of the chronological events in the history of the family than as the lead of the entire article.

Thanks, BC1278 (talk) 17:28, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

References

Reply 23-MAR-2020

  Clarification requested  

• Please provide the |page= parameter from the Gérard reference.
• If you don't have the page number, then your proposed text is not formatted correctly. The correct formatting should be the following:

  'Hottinger' first appears in the annals of the town of Zöllikon, near Zurich, in 1362. The town had recently joined the Swiss Confederation, and was poised to become a thriving center for trade. In 1401, three members of the Hottinger family were named Burghers of the city. Their names Hans, Heinrich and Rudolf – or, in their French variants, Jean, Henri and Rodolphe – have marked the family dynasty for over 500 years. During the 15th and 16th centuries, their descendants oversaw the canton's progressive transformation from a rural to a financial economy, taking an active role in the region's political, cultural and religious life all the way into the 18th century.

Regards,  Spintendo  17:42, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Notes

References

Main source self-published

Bibliographic information

• Title Messieurs Hottinguer: banquiers a Paris, Volume 2
• Messieurs Hottinguer: banquiers a Paris, Max Gérard
• Author Max Gérard
• Publisher Hottinguer, 1968
• from [10]

Volume 1 at [11] also published by Hottinguer

I'll remove the reference. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 01:42, 6 April 2020 (UTC)