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Archive 1Archive 2

Influences on David Weber

I haven't read the Lensman series, but I think Weber included several references to it. Can someone who's read both confirm or deny it?

Anyway, I do think that some article should list the literary and historical influences on the Honorverse.

SpaceCaptain 01:39, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think that's a good idea. Perhaps we should start by first listing the influences and references that Weber has made? Brainstorming in advance might make for a better article. It will certainly make for an easier to write article. Here are the influences that I know about.
  • Manticore's influences
    • Modern day England (even though Manticore is not ans never has been an empire).
    • Lord Admiral Nelson (Prototype for Honor Harrington)
    • Queen Elizabeth I (prototype for Queen Elizabeth III)
    • tradition of Royality and Nobles serving in the Navy.
  • Haven influences
  • Grayson Influences
  • Masadan Influence
  • Beowulf reminds me of the Dutch anytime after 1648 but before the start of the Napoleonic Wars.
  • The Solerian League seems to be modeled after modern day United States.
  • Silesia
    • The contest over Silesia between the Andermani and Manticorans resembles the 'Great Game' contest between Britain and Russia over Central Asia
      • and partition of Poland (XVIII century) connected with weak government--Dotz Holiday (talk) 07:31, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
      • Or any partition in history. There are few pararells with Poland - Poland was progressive and trying to reform itself (Silesia was not), Poland had a common culture (Silesia did not), Poland was once a powerful country (Silesia wasn't), Poland was partitioned by three hostile powers bent on eradicating Poland and Polish culture from existence (neither Andermani or Manticore are hostile to Silesia)... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 10:18, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
      • Discussion:
        • Piotruś, do you remember a vista any significant partitions/bi or multilateral annexations not made after the war, but with partitioned state consent? (conditions at least for 1st partition of Poland)(friendly rhetoric question)
        • we do not know many about Silesian power before rise of Manticoran merchantry, but c1900 PD it was large state with numerous fleet and at least one protectorate (if you know more from SITS or Baen Bar - give me a private message, please);
        • real world three partitioning powers initially were not oficially hostile to "Poland"/Republic of Both Nations - even Kingdom of Prussia (technically hostile, because of its expansionism) proposed an alliance and some land exchange; partitions were against Russian policy - "Poland" was its protectorate from break of XVII and XVIII centuries; because of moral dilemas Austria didn't take part in second partition; war of 1791 was caused because of reforming attempts connected with change of alliances, not by neighbours' general hostility;
        • with no effective central government "Poland" in XVIII century was described as "confederation of provinces";
        • talking about Polish culture eraditaction in XVIII century is anachronistic (XIX century!)
        • talking about Silesia in Honorverse - Weber gives only one party relation about partition of Silesia - it can be biased, there is no Silesian nor Solarian point of view present, nobody knows what rebels will appear in sequels;
        • however diffrent is, that Anderman Empire and Manticore left local Silesian governments - it looks like a kind of kondominion and protectorate (very enconomical "deal with your internal affairs yourself" policy).--Dotz Holiday (talk) 05:39, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Military History
    • LAC / COLAC paradigm shift is modeled on the aircraft carrier naval paradigm shift that occurred in WWII


Literary Influences
  • Beowulf
there are more, I'm sure...but I cam't think of them. When I do, I'll post them here.*Kat* 01:47, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)
added few more, will expand when I have time, suggest moving it to article section. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:42, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I don't have time to expand it into an article either. That's why I started this outline.~~
Maybe this is just me, but the way the Solarian League gets described in a number of ways reminds me of the standard criticisms of the United Nations. As long as we're hypothesizing influences... thing is, though, unless David Weber's stated somewhere that he's specifically been influenced by something, I'm not sure that it's appropriate to include a supposed influence in the article. References are different, since it's directly stated in his work, but even in the format of "Some readers have suggested that Grayson is an allusion to the Amish", I doubt that's "properly encyclopedic" or whatever the wikipedia guidelines for articles require if we're the source of the suggestion.The Literate Engineer 04:55, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure where this would fall in your list of influences, but the Horatio Hornblower books have definitely been an influence. In fact, the story title "Ms. Midshipwoman Harrington" is a direct play on the book title Mr. Midshipman Hornblower. However, I have read the Lensman series many times, and I have yet to find any Lensman references in the Honorverse. If there are any, they're a lot more subtle than I'd expect from the man who came up with "Rob S. Pierre". -- CWesling 08:56, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
All of the above is very interesting, but without direct quotes form David Weber on each item, it's all Original Research, and somewhat contradictory. THis is especially true in light of the recently-added post regarding Lenin/Stalin, which IIRC is contrary to statements by DW. - BillCJ (talk) 15:28, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
For what David Weber himself said about this, see the Allegory subsections in Republic of Haven, Andermani Empire, Silesian Confederacy. Debresser (talk) 14:01, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Battle of Manticore

There are discrepancies with relation to casualties and original battle force for this battle, and it would be greatly appreciated if someone could streighten them out. Also, could someone find the numbers for third and eighth fleet?--Akako|☎ 14:42, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

I've put in the correct numbers from the book, as well as significantly extending the account of the battle. Dr pda 21:52, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Material to salvage

See [1] - I found some materials from my (partially) old, now defunct honorverse site in the Internet Archieve. Feel free to take anything you need and add it here.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 21:58, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

broken link--Dotz Holiday (talk) 20:08, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Service of the Sword

I believe this book is considered part of the Shadow of Saganami series by Weber, but haven't time today to verify that.(Wrong again... )<G> FrankB 15:51, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

  • Baen is paying a lot more attention to grouping same as are book dealers like Amazon and B&N— in contrast to the chaotic mess that pertains to Eric Flint's 1632 series by way of contrast... I suspect David and his agent or publicist are minding the store and so those categorizations should tell the proper grouping. FrankB 18:42, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Categories

I placed a list like this in Talk:1632 series, which is analogous to this article in that it ties all the works in the series, and it's various sub-series together.

It is very useful as a check list or to Cut and Paste into new Articles.

The ebook category certainly applies to virtually all Baen's books by this date six years after he started expermenting with ePublishing.

So two of these are probably new to any reader here: The ebooks cat and David Weber book cat as well. FrankB 15:51, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

List of Categories

[[ Category:Fiction ]]

[[ Category:Fantasy novels ]]

[[ Category:Science fiction novels ]]

[[ Category:Science fiction series ]]

[[ Category: Novel sequences ]]

[[ Category: Honorverse ]]

time to remove stub template from empire section

Any details would just duplicate the wiki entries for those empires. Joncnunn 21:01, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

new categrories

To consider:

Also, note that there are articles on The Honorverse Wiki which should be copied here (as THW is not supposed to be an encyclopedia).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 05:20, 6 May 2006 (UTC) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 05:20, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with all of those except for Honorverse technology. There's already an Honorverse military technology. Jon 20:19, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
There is some honoeverse technology that is not military. Prolong for starters, quite a lot of space travel technology too. Why should they be excluded from their own category?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 21:45, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to express my point of view that there are already too many categories in the Honorverse. Please have a look at this. Debresser (talk) 19:15, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

From embedded comment

re:Main Series (novels)

I'd placed this (now removed) under the article page section title Honorverse#Main_Series_(novels) 16:00 UTC, Weds 15 May 2006 and no one seems to have found the embedded notes about the templates. WikiProjects (books and novels) has been educating me lately too, so see my /archive04 exchange with Kevinlewis on a novels infobox 'Standard'. I just cattle-proded three of the book folks to categorize their book templates (User_talk:Pegship#Book_.27Tools.27_and_such_topics, so maybe some of their standard templates will improve and come into general accessibility.

I'm removing this (updated) note I'd embedded

Copyeditors!!: There are templates {{ISBN}} and {{cite book}} (SF use example: http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Grantville_Gazette_II&action=edit&section=6) for books which has ISBNs, etc. This should be used, at least in the individual article pages. Copyright dates and ISBNs should be available by using the link: http://www.baen.com/series_list.asp#S1000000001 which lists all the books in the series via succeeding links. If you don't know about this template, I'll place it on the Talk page under 'ISBN BOOK Template' or some such rubric. If there is none to be found there, inquire on my Talk page AND email me. Chances are good I can dig it out. user: fabartus ca 16:00 UTC, Weds 15 May 2006

ISBN BOOK Template

Keeps my promise, albeit belatedly: {{cite book}}; Use of ISBN within works. Seeing what you folks here have organized, that section needs reconciled with it's list/navigation purpose and the Book projects folks standard guidlines... I'd suggest the 'cite book' be used in each article under publishing history, as I'm doing in 1632 series, leaving the series article carry the 'glue' and 'common' stuff. Best wishes // FrankB 19:14, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
I added ISBN to the infobox, and then added the actual ISBNs to each book, for the main series. We need an infobox for the other Honorverse books. Maybe I can do that this weekend. -Arch dude 19:05, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Reading order

Why should War be after Crown? I disagree with that change Tbmorgan74 21:00, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


Internal Chronology

Reading order is the order that best reveals the world to the reader. Mostly that is publication order, but that is not a given. The short stories in the extra novels are not all set in the same time as each other, so sorting the collections themselves into universe chronology would be impossible. Stay tuned for a list of all stores by internal chronology. Tbmorgan74 17:06, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


In "Ms. Midshipwoman Harrington", Roger is still king (ship's are referred to as King's ships). So this story is before "Queen's Gambit" where Elizabeth becomes Queen. Also note that in Queen's Gambit, Mike Henke (and thus most probably her classmate, Honor Harrington) is a lieutenant, so several years have passed since their middie cruises in "Ms. Midshipwoman Harrington". This chronology also establishes that Honor is in fact older than Elizabeth who is only 18 in Queen's Gambit. "Promised Land" occures quite a few years after "Queen's Gambit", since Michael Winton has aged form 13 in "Queen's Gambit" to about 22 in "Promised Land". So the order would be "Ms. Midshipwoman Harrington" followed some unknown time (X) after by "Queen's Gambit" followed 9 years after by "Promised Land". If X is more than a couple of years, then it is possible that "Promised Land" occurs even after the "Hard Way Home", if indeed only 10 years pass between "Ms. Midshipwoman Harrington" and the "Hard Way Home", where Honor is a lieutenant commander. It is more probable that the "Hard Way Home" occurs later than 1890PD, since Honor gains only 1 rank (but also has 3 different postings: Manticore, Hawkwing and ATC) between this story and "On Basilisk Station" wich occurs in 1900PD. --Gsapient 04:43, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
From the Highlands occurs before the end of Ashes of Victory, during the last days of the Cromarty government, since Cathy arrives in manticore just a few days after the High Ridge government's formation (towards the end of Ashes of Victory), and regrets her decision to not use the wormhole for her return trip that would have enabled her to prevent its formation by exposing many of its members as slave owners (see "War of Honor") --Gsapient 04:43, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Sugested Reading Order

This needs to be cited, otherwise it appears to be original research. Jon 17:28, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

As over two months have passed since this post, without any corrective action, I removed the list. Mdotley 19:06, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

History

There are a lot of great parallels with the Age of Sail and the British Empire in the history section of the article, but some of the differences are almost as interesting. Unlike the British Empire, the Kingdom of Manticore doesn't seem to engage or have engaged in imperialistic behavior ever. The only practically or morally wrong decision they ever seem in danger of making is avoiding war - their politicians may endanger people by ignoring the fact that war is inevitable, but never seem tempted to start a war for political reasons. Haven and other enemies, of course, don't have and never had had any rational reasons to fear Manticorean aggression.

I haven't read every single book, so I didn't edit the article myself, but in my opinion someone should.

68.195.20.104 20:34, 8 July 2007 (UTC)DavidWeisman68.195.20.104 20:34, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Sidney Harris (Honorverse)

Sidney Harris (Honorverse) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Hello, I created this stub because I was disambiguating various people named Sidney or Sydney Harris, and several articles referred to this character, some with links. Was he a notable enough character to get his own article? If so, please write it - I can't, I've never read any of this series. If not, is there some other article to which his name should point? Or should we just leave his name unlinked? Thanks, Tualha (Talk) 09:41, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Unless his entry can get significantly longer, I'd suggest merging and redirecting it to List of Honorverse characters.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  11:13, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Definitely. Mdotley 19:13, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Redirected. Cheers, Jack Merridew 06:29, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Template Talk 2007

This is the place to pickup the conversation from my talk page.--Tbmorgan74 23:09, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps better then to look at the template, we should look at the Category:Honorverse. I was once convinced that articles like Deneb Accords are notable and we need categories like Category:History of Honorverse or Category:Law in the Honorverse. Now, I'd argue for the need of merging most of those articles into singular articles on History of Honorverse or Law in the Honorverse, as I am afraid they may not be notable on their own.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  23:18, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, just from a quick look, most should be merged. The question is which ones don't need to be merged. What is available for this series regarding guidebooks and the like? Are the single parts ever talked about in reviews or is it mostly just the works themselves? TTN 23:24, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Reviews, perhaps. Fanpages and such, certainly. I am not familiar with any guidebooks.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  23:41, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


Honorverse Wiki

Is there an Honorverse Wiki? Not a wikipedia entry, but a specific site for Honorverse, like SporeWiki for Spore? If there is not one, why isn't there? I think there should be. Anyone agree out there? If there is one, could you say what its called please? 71.242.92.92 00:51, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I just found out there is one. It is at http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page --71.242.39.58 06:13, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


New Novels Delay

Sequels to Crown of Slaves and Shadow of Saganami were scheduled for 2007 and haven't seen the light of day yet. Heard no word of the follow up to the less than brilliant At all costs. Who knows more ? --Arotto (talk) 15:40, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Try asking at Baen's Bar.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:24, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Update: I tried and received no reply. Sigh. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:39, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

On March 25 2008 a User posted in the baen.honorverse of Baen's Bar that Eric Flint said that Shadow of Saganami II will be a March 2009 release and Crown of Slaves II will come out some time after Shadow of Saganami II. The next main-line Honorverse will be probably come out after them. --Jaellee (talk) 22:06, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Merging items

I support eliminating not notable articles, but I suggest they should be merged into something like Honorverse terminology, not here. Honorverse timeline seems distinct enough as a separate history article, though.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:25, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

  • I agree with the above. I could see merging the articles in an article on terminology or such but puttng it here... you may as well merger everything associated with HH series here indiscriminantly and have wikipedia's longest article. If we merge articles, I suggest merging many of the smaller non-associated article with one another rather than with the main article.Unak78| talk 23:11, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
  • StateSec article could be merged with Republic of Haven artice (after revision of course) (there is terrible overcorrective teacher who still claims about its poor notability).--Dotz Holiday (talk) 07:27, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

List of Honorverse characters nominated for deletion

Interested users may want to comment at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Honorverse characters.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:36, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Masada (Honorverse) deleted

The article Masada (Honorverse) has been deleted. First AfD: Articles for deletion/Masada (Honorverse) (no consensus). Second AfD: Articles for deletion/Masada (Honorverse) (2nd nomination) (delete). Jobjörn (talk) 17:21, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Another place to check is the items being removed/red-linked at Template:Honorverse.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:39, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

List of spaceship classes in Honorverse

Most if not all of the classes are hardly notable, they should be merged from Category:Spacecraft in the Honorverse into a single article that has a chance of surviving an AfD. Already at least one class article has been deleted.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:48, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

As predicted: all classes have been deleted.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:05, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Honorverse the Online Game

I see no mention of the game Honorverse the Online Game. I only discovered it this morning, looks like it has been in production for a while. The game has a website and trailer, though I have my doubts about its future given that it has not updated in quite some time. Still though, does anyone think that it is worth mentioning? - Fearless Son (talk) 19:44, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

New lists created for articles that are non-notable

Due to increasing deletions of non-notable articles, I've created several articles where we should merge smaller entities. See Honorverse concepts and terminology for details, as it is both a list and contains links to more detailed lists.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

New AfD

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Manpower Incorporated (Honorverse) (2nd nomination).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 13:54, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

internal chronology

There appears to be two lists for internal chronology. Can I get gid rid of one, or am I missing something important? Zombie Hunter Smurf (talk) 03:27, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Proposed addition to template

I'd like to propose to add the list of books in the Honorverse to the Honorverse template. Not the long one with the chronological order, but just the short one in green. That would add this essential information as to what is the source of all the information on the Honorverse, and would allow for making changes easily (as compared to separately editing each of the 9 pages with this list). Debresser (talk) 19:22, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

In addition, I would propose adding the template (the present template or an enlarged one) to the 18 articles on books set in the Honorverse. Debresser (talk) 21:25, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I did the first. Debresser (talk) 11:39, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

And the second. Debresser (talk) 11:51, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Rumors of 5th anthology

Reverted from main article, which I am not intending to challenge. The addition was based on a post in Baen's Bar, citing private email from David Weber, that a 5th anthology is planned around late 2009/2010. Hopefully soon we will have a more reliable source to cite for that. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 03:25, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I apologize if you took offense to that, but it seems like rumored book dates without a reliable source shouldn't be included in the article.. that is, until there is a reliable source available to confirm (publisher's website, author's website, Amazon, etc.) I certainly hope this one is true, though! -BloodDoll (talk) 22:47, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
So do I. But you were a 100% right about reverting it. Debresser (talk) 16:44, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
No offense taken. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:37, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

So any news? I see the anthology is now listed in the table for chronologies... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 02:16, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Which is where? Debresser (talk) 08:19, 1 April 2009 (UTC) Oh. I see. Removed it. Need source. Debresser (talk) 08:31, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Fine by me as well. I thought it was more 'solid' than it apparently is (not). LP-mn (talk) 22:55, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Honorverse wiki

...is fairly active: [2]. It would be nice to set up a system under which we could transwikify / redirect articles that are getting deleted from Wikipedia. Is there anybody here who is also a Honorverse wiki editor? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 02:09, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Ps. See here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:36, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Here's my idea of how we can make this work: we should create a list of all Honorverse article here (or at a dedicated subpage), and ensure they are transwikified, then cross them out from that list. We should also ensure that each Wikipedia article links to existing Honorverse counterpart, and that that core Honorverse articles, those that will never be deleted from Wikipedia, are linked from Honorverse wiki with a note that editors of that wiki are asked to update both articles and keep them as mirror-like as possible (it would be nice if we could have some sort of a bot to do that).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:46, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Honorverse_concepts_and_terminology

FYI. Ikip (talk) 16:32, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Other Afds: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Office of Frontier Security and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of ships in the Honorverse

FYI. Ikip (talk) 17:08, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

A template directing readers to Honorverse wiki

As we are merging and shortening a lot of articles, I think it is crucial to inform the readers that they can read more on Honorverse wiki. I made a provisional edit for the Beowulf Code; do you think that we should make a Honorverse wiki template to standarize this? The goal is to have every single Honorverse term on Wikipedia directing the reader to the treatment on Honorverse wiki. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:35, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Sounds great. A small template, like {{Commons}} in size. Debresser (talk) 22:15, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
I was thinking something more like {{See also}}. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 23:27, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
That's certainly easier to make. If some editor would like to turn it into something a little more fancy later on, I'd be very content. Debresser (talk) 23:31, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
I've created {{Honorversewiki}} --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 01:31, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

To some extent, this may be a follow-up to the earlier post by "71.242.92.92" and the more recent posts (plural) by -Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus:


Would anybody's "toes be stepped on" if the Honorverse Wikia (and possibly its logo?) were placed in the "External Links" section of the Honorverse page?

There are some things they can do there that we can not do here, so I feel it may be a good idea. I recognize however that this may not be a popular thing to do.

OR... perhaps it would be more relevant to ask, has any semi-formal decision been made regarding the immediate-above discussion re the honorverse wikia and wikipedia?

LP-mn (talk) 15:08, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I feel it is a good idea. Debresser (talk) 01:58, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
The more we link to Honorverse excellent Wikia the better, IMHO. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 02:37, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Worlds of Weber

Considering that it has no new Hverse material, just reprints, and even those are a minority of the book, is it really a part of the Honorverse? I think not, and I'd support removing it. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 08:00, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think so. It still has Honorverse stories. But the article on Worlds of Weber should make it clear in its lead that it contains only a minority of Honorverse stories and that those are not debuts. Debresser (talk) 13:47, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
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