Talk:Holy trinity (cooking)

another Holy Trinity

I would suggest another Holy Trinity from Alice Waters' "Chez Panisse Vegetables": cucumber, mango and red onion Perhaps as a carribean or coastal trinity Signed:riyley —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.28.221.230 (talk) 16:16, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

I find the note about the English "trinity" to be a hoot, but not exactly an actual description. I don't even think the joke is common. There's more evidence for the following:

Catalan comfort: A Barcelona cooking school reveals the holy trinity of grape, grain and olive, writes Judith Elen http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20731211-33837,00.html

"Beyond the Holy Trinity of bread, oil and wine, Spanish cuisine boasts a cornucopia of diversity..." Lonely Planet World Food Spain (Lonely Planet World Food Guides) (Paperback) by Richard Sterling

three different kinds of paprika (the “holy trinity” of ancho, mulato and pasilla) http://www.uni-graz.at/~katzer/engl/Sesa_ind.html

the holy trinity of Native American cuisine -- corn, beans and squash. http://www.sallys-place.com/food/ethnic_cusine/us.htm

Perhaps someone who knows cooking could take a look at some of the IP signed changes and see if they are accurate? Judielaine 03:26, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

origin of concept?

This page needs an explanation as to where this idea comes from/who first came up with it. --Krsont 04:25, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Italian holy trinity ?

Sorry, but it's wrong. Tomato is related to basil and this is ok, for the large part of the tomato sauce, but not always with garlic and above all, the soffritto in italian, is the base of the ragù: onion, celery stalk, and carrot and that is the only holy trinity foundable in italian cooking. Not often the soffritto is used for tomato sauce, but always for the ragù. The tomato sauce is obtained from a base of garlic and oil or more classical from onion and oil. - Hoping someone would change the page.

merge this into more general article

the examples in this article are not all examples of Mirepoix/Sofrito, just common ingredients of the stereo type of each national cuisine.

i suggest a merger of the articles Mirepoix, Soffritto, and Sofrito under the most accepted culinary term and redirect each vernacular to the main one. as far as i know 'Holy Trinity' refers to the Cajun/Creole version.

--franco (talk) 19:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I went looking for the list of cooking bases that used to be here (and where are they?) and I started at "mirepoix." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.130.248.176 (talk) 00:39, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Lebanon trinity

Actually it is not Lebanon alone, this trinity (Garlic, Olive Oil, and Lemon Juice - sometimes Thyme might be added) is used by most of the Middle Eastern and Mediterranean countries were influenced by the Turks during the Ottoman Empire. So this trinity would be found in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Palestine, and modern Israel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Husamabbas (talk • contribs) 16:25, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

The end of this statement is weird. What dishes can be made from JUST Garlic, Olive Oil, And Lemon Juice. Maybe a sauce or two but many dishes?

Better sources needed!

This article is almost entirely sourced from a variety of non-notable, non-authoritative blogs. If this notion of 'trinity' is more than a fad, we should be able to do better. --Macrakis (talk) 19:21, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Agreed!

The attempt at reducing regional cuisine to a trinity of ingredients is admirable but is it truly a reviewed concept? Additional and supported citations are needed and shouldn't be too hard to find. Cutsh (talk) 21:20, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Done

OK, I have found reliable sources for the Cajun/Creole use of "holy trinity". All the rest don't have solid sources, and seem to simply be people extending the joke on a one-time basis to some three ingredients perceived as important in various cuisines. --Macrakis (talk) 16:10, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I disagree with the listing of supposed "trinities" in other cuisines, as there is no consistent, established usage of the term documented in reliable sources in these various cuisines. If I mention on my blog that olive oil, oregano, lemon, and pepper are the "quadrivium" of Greek cooking, should Wikipedia cover it? It is just a silly joke. --Macrakis (talk) 20:18, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

For real

Kaid100 wrote:

too much of this article is simply listing three of the more common ingredients of a nation's cuisine rather than reporting on a pre-existing concept of a nation's "holy trinity"

I agree. References should back up the inherent claim that the 3 ingredients are the definitive "holy trinity" of the cuisine. (Heroeswithmetaphors) talk 20:58, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Then why are you adding back in all the idiosyncratic claims backed up with blogs and other unreliable references? --Macrakis (talk) 21:27, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

In other cuisines

The term has been occasionally used jocularly about various other triples of important ingredients in a variety of cuisines:

• ginger, garlic and scallions in Chinese cuisine
• onion, garlic and green pepper in Cuban cuisine
• pepper (generally habaneros or scotch bonnets), onions, and tomatoes in Ghanaian cuisine
• kimchi, ginseng and garlic in Korean cuisine
• The ancho, pasilla and guajillo chilli peppers in Mexican cuisine.
• wheat, the olive and the vine in the Mediterranean diet
• galangal, kaffir lime leaf and lemongrass in Thai cuisine

References

(Heroeswithmetaphors) talk 04:13, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Not sure what your point is here. "Holy trinity" is a funny way of referring to three basic ingredients, not a standard concept in cuisine or gastronomy. In Louisiana, it has apparently become the standard name for their variant(s) of the mirepoix or soffrito. But in other cuisines, it is just a cute metaphor, like referring to La Pyramide as a "temple of gastronomy". That doesn't mean we should have a temple (gastronomy) article listing famous restaurants which have been characterized as "temples". --Macrakis (talk) 13:00, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Could a better word than facetious be used to describe it? The people using it certainly are not joking about it nor being deliberately inappropriate, (ie from google: Adjective: Treating serious issues with deliberately inappropriate humor; flippant). —N·M—^talk 17:45, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

You don't think it's "deliberately inappropriate" or "flippant" to call a bunch of chopped vegetables after a central tenet of Christianity? How much more flippant can you get? --Macrakis (talk) 19:31, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually having been raised Catholic, I don't see that we (or any other religion) has a copyright on the phrase, nor do we own it outright. As for being deliberately inappropriate or flippant; No, I don't think they are doing it deliberately to be offensive or insensitive to some religious tenant, I think the majority of the people from the area call it that because "That's what Momma and Granny called it." Regardless of one's religious views, one cannot simply dismiss a culture or its ways simply because it offends one's belief system. Just MHO —N·M—^talk 04:49, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

"Having a copyright on the phrase" is not the issue. Surely the phrase "holy trinity" for the Cajun mirepoix is a humorous (= facetious) twist on the Christian concept, and not an independent assemblage of the concept of "holy" and of "trinity"? "Flippant" and "offensive" are not the same thing; I am not offended by this usage, I just recognize it as flippant or facetious humor. Compare "iron mainsail" as a "facetious+name" facetious name for an engine on a sailboat. Facetious, not offensive.

On a different topic, it would be interesting to have sources for this being a long-standing usage ("That's what Momma and Granny called it"). The oldest reference we've been able to find is from 1981; do you sources showing it's older? Or was it perhaps coined by the great chef and showman Paul Prudhomme? --Macrakis (talk) 16:35, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Point taken, I defer to you then. Wish I did have sources (reliable [not OR]) on earlier uses. Only source I have is Old Lady Johnson next door who says she's heard it called that (and used it) since she was a child, but she's not published :) so she is of no use in this respect. —N·M—^talk 20:16, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Old content

This article previously had this extensive list:

• Chinese cuisines: The definitive Chinese trinity is spring onions, ginger, and garlic. One example in which these primary ingredients are cooked together to form a base is the flavor combination known as yuxiang(魚香; literally "fish flavored"), also referring to the resulting sauce in which meat or vegetables are cooked.
  • A trinity of garlic, ginger, and chili peppers is another prevalent combination of sauteed ingredients, typically used in the spicier regional cuisines of China.
  • In Sichuan cuisine, there is a seasoning concept known as "three peppers" (三椒) which is considered to be indispensable. The "three peppers" refer to chili peppers, Sichuan pepper, and white pepper. This is because Chinese often forms compound names with the jiao(椒) element for pungent spices even if they are unrelated to pepper, hence the ambiguity.
• Cuban cuisine: The Cuban version of sofrito is based on the trinity of garlic, bell peppers, and Spanish onion.
• French cuisine: The definitive trinity of French cuisine is widely accepted as a mirepoix of celery, onion, and carrots.
  • A flavour base of butter, cream, and eggs is typical of classical French haute cuisine and its vast repertoire of rich sauces.
  • A bouquet garni is at its core a combination of parsley, thyme, and bay leaves tied together as a flavor base for French liquid dishes.
• Greek cuisine: The Greek trinity is lemon juice, olive oil, and oregano. The variety of oregano traditionally used in Greek cooking is called mountain oregano (rigani in Greek).
• Hungarian cuisine: The combination of paprika, lard, and red onion is typical of Hungarian cuisine.
• Italian cuisine: The definitive trinity in Italian cuisine is soffritto, a base of sauteed carrots, onion, and celery, essentially the same ingredients as that of mirepoix. Others consider the combination of tomato, garlic, and basil to be more characteristic of Italian cooking, especially in Southern Italy.
• Jamaican cuisine: Jamaican cuisine almost always includes a Holy Trinity composed of garlic, scallion, and thyme. The combination is often used to season meat and fish dishes and even used to flavor rice and peas.
• Korean Cuisine: The "trinity" of garlic, ginseng, and kimchi is seen as the cornerstone ingredients of Korean cuisine, although traditional Korean cooking never combines all three ingredients in preparing a single dish.
• Lebanese cuisine: The basic ingredients for Lebanese cuisine (and by extension the food of the greater Levant) are garlic, lemon juice, and olive oil. Many traditional Lebanese dishes are prepared using these three key ingredients.
• Mediterranean cuisine (generalized): Bread, olive oil, and wine are often said to be the staples that form the basis of the cooking of the Mediterranean region in Southern Europe, such as Greece, Italy, Portugal, and Spain.
• Mexican cuisine: The combination of three types of dried chili peppers — ancho, pasilla, and guajillo - are also referred to as a "holy trinity". They are frequently used to flavor many traditional recipes, such as moles. Chilies, along with corn and beans, are the definitive three staples of Mexican cuisine.
• Philippine cuisine: Ginisá ("sautéd") is a Filipino culinary term referring to garlic, onions, and often tomatoes sautéd together; it is essentially similar to the Spanish sofrito.
• Spanish cuisine: Sofrito, a sauteed base of garlic, onion, and tomato cooked in olive oil is widely used as a base for countless Spanish recipes. With sofregit, the Catalan regional equivalent, olive oil itself is usually emphasized as the third essential component in the base instead of garlic, which often may be omitted altogether.
• Thai cuisine: The Thai trinity of galangal, kaffir lime (leaves and rind), and lemon grass are the foundation ingredients or aromatics of most Thai curries and soups.
• West African cuisines: In the cuisines of Ghana and the rest of West Africa, the trinity of chili peppers (generally habaneros or scotch bonnets), onions, and tomatoes are an almost "sacred" combination of ingredients, providing a base for a variety of soups, stews, sauces, and gravies in the region.
• While not an aromatic trinity trio, the agricultural Three Sisters (agriculture) of various Native American groups in North America (squash, maize, and climbing beans) represents a similar concept as the three most important food crops of a particular culture. However, the term refers more to the agricultural usage of the three in multi-tiered farming approach than to culinary usage.

Is there another article to which this list could be moved, since it is only tangentially relevant here? Andrew Keenan Richardson (talk) 23:07, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

It's not useful or encyclopedic to list "trinities" of ingredients for various cuisines. It's not useful because three is a completely arbitrary number of ingredients; why force all these varied cuisines into the procrustean bed of "holy trinities". It's not encyclopedic, because the notion of a "trinity" of ingredients is used more or less arbitrarily by food writers, without any systematic conventions or agreement. If there are basic ingredients found in certain cuisines, they should be discussed in that cuisine's article. And of course all that should be better sourced than the above list. We can all Google e.g. [ "Mexican cuisine" "holy trinity"] and find a "source" -- but the #1 result (cited above) is, of all things, a poorly-written, unpublished essay by a college sophomore; that is not a reliable source. --Macrakis (talk) 02:30, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

"The term is first attested in 1981[2] and was probably popularized by Paul Prudhomme.[3]"

This is ridiculous. Terms are "coined" not "attested." More importantly, the linked reference alludes to an earlier usage. This doesn't provided evidence to support the statement; it directly contradicts it! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.242.205.238 (talk) 22:41, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

"Attested" means "demonstrated to exist". In etymology, an attestation of a word is an appearance of a word, preferably in a well-dated source. Of course, the word or term almost always existed before that. But it is rarely possible to show that a given use of a word was the first use. --Macrakis (talk) 00:12, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

References

I think we need to reword this article

How in the name of Charles Dickens and his Grandma can this be called a "Holy trinity" in the very first sentence, when it contains 4 items. Regardless of whether this is a Cajun Holy Trinity or one belonging to the Pope himself, 4 is not a Trinity. What does the Fish say? | Woof! 14:08, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, if the 6 books of Tolkien's LOTR can be called a trilogy....But seriously, maybe the article needs to list the other ingredients as alternatives (to xxxx) rather than additions. When I was looking for Jambalaya recipes, the commonest Holy Trinity seemed to be celery, onion and garlic. Bell peppers make more sense IMO - who can imagine a creole dish without them?D Anthony Patriarche (talk) 00:07, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

In defence

The only place I have come across the term "Holy Trinity" of vegetables or herbs in widespread use is in Creole/Cajun cooking, and there it is widespread, i.e. notable. It also fits with what little I know of creole philology. Some of the criticisms have validity: e.g. only one cite for the origin of the term (surely it is older than 1981?), some confusion over what exactly are the three components; but judging by the prevalence of the phrase when I researched Jambalaya recipes, it passes the notability test. D Anthony Patriarche (talk) 23:58, 1 September 2017 (UTC)