Talk:Hold My Liquor

Content removal

@Ascribe4: As you can see, Zmbro sees that your removal of content is unnecessary. Not only lack of explanation, but no unreliable sources were there? Though I wish to believe your edits are done out of good faith, this article may not be a case of that... --Kyle Peake (talk) 19:26, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

Genres

@Zmbro The problem is that both your sources are actually opinions when it comes down to it,the reviewer from rolling stone THOUGHT that this was a house ballad. I think it would be better to compare the actually characteristics of the song to the definitions of the genres that you mentioned, and influential songs in those genres, if you do that you will find House is out of the question, and so is Industrial. I will give two examples of house songs, the first is "Your Love" by Frankie Knuckles [1] there are certain elements here like the 4/4 kick, the offbeat hi hat and the piano that are very common in house music, but the most important element that distinguishes is that it's a DANCE song, I can find a source that explicitly states that but house is widely accepted as dance music so this doesn't count as original research. The second house song I want to mention is "Grey" By Kolsch [2] while this doesn't have the offbeat hi hat that was characteristic of early house this does have the 4/4 kick and most importantly again it's a dance song, this is also widely accepted. But I can provide a source that states as much if you want. The genres I added are a much better fit according to their definitions for example post rock is characterized by taking certain elements from rock and altering them or giving them a new context, in this case the electric guitar. I can find articles from reputable sources that break down the characteristics of each genre and then compare them to the song in question additionally I can provide influential songs from each genre that I mentioned in addition to articles that talk about them. But for now I'll use the song as my source, I'm pretty sure media itself can be used as a source, correct me if I'm mistaken. In the song Chief Keef sings using Heavy Autotune which is characteristic of hip hop and some RnB like Bartender By T Pain,[3] again while the statement is original the idea is not and is widely accepted, so does not violate the OR rule. Industrial "Is a genre of music which draws on harsh, transgressive or provocative sounds and themes. AllMusic defines industrial music as the "most abrasive and aggressive fusion of rock and electronic music" Your source called this a "House Ballad" which in and of itself is a contradiction because even the slowest house music is still fast and a ballad is defined as "a slow sentimental or romantic song." So while Rolling Stone might usually be a reliable source I don't think it was in this instance, and in essence I think you committed an OR Violation by proxy. Also a glaring example that I forgot to include is that Kanye West raps in this song, making it a hip hop song. Which probably should be first on the list of genres. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Officialmbc (talk • contribs) 17:20, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Officialmbc First of all, you're new to WP, so you still have quite a bit to learn about how this site works (I'd read the five pillars). I originally had the sentence as "'Hold My Liquor' is a hip hop song that contains an industrial sound and elements of house music" but an annoying editor who thinks he knows everything changed it here. I agree that hip hop and electronic should be mentioned but I personally haven't been able to find an RS that states either one of those. If you wanna go for it since you're clearly obsessed with this song be my guest. But you can't just change a word from a source (and have it capital) and expect to get away with it because that's not what the source says. Also, you can't add genres to the infobox cuz it's "common sense", that's not how this site works.

Second, I know what these genres sound like so I didn't need the music lesson. Furthermore, you may not "think" Rolling Stone is an RS because it's "an opinion" but it is because Rolling Stone is a trusted publication. While I do agree that this song is not a 100% "ballad", I think Justin Vernon and Chief Keef's sections could be classified as partially ballads (West's certainly isn't). The main problem is that, as I stated earlier, I haven't been able to find an RS that describes this song like any other genre and believe me, I've tried. This article still needs a lot of work, especially structure-wise and with genres, but I've been working on other projects as what I'm trying to find is just not there. Especially with genres, we have to work with what we find. Yeezus in general I would say is industrial in nature, except for maybe "Bound 2", but the noise that happens after every West phrase (i.e. "Bitch I'm back out my coma") is definitely industrial.

Third, "in essence" doesn't mean I violated anything, which I didn't. I'm only adhering to WP's policies because that's all I'm able to find. You can also blame this guy for how it's worded. Until I or someone else find another source that says something else, it should stay as is. Also, remember to sign your talk pages. – zmbro _(talk) 03:56, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Zmbro Remember that WP's policies state that you don't need a source for widely held beliefs, i.e. house is dance music. I think the reviewer from rolling stone was going off the fact that there are multiple mentions of the acid house influence [4] [5] on the album, but even if this song is house music influenced I don't think that's enough for a house music classification, because again it's not a dance song. And I don't think that split second sample can make the whole song be classified as industrial, I don't know if this can be considered a source but amazon classifies it as a hip hop song [6] I think the ratatat comparison supports the post rock classification or you could say electronic rock but I think post rock is a better fit here. [7] then you have the qoute from Phil Witmer saying they "aren't rap, they're rock anthems from the 25th century" And Mike Dean said "I don't even know them-- so I definitely didn't bite it. [laughs] I was doing some Queen shit." which is a direct comparison by the producer of the song to a rock band. although since it's only one element it wouldn't make the whole song a rock song.

It was on the hip hop and r&b chart, I think that should be enough for a Hip Hop/R&B classification. [8] I was more arguing with the house comparison, I would say ballad actually fits pretty well here, as both Chief Keef and Kanye West's lyrics could be considered sentimental, and the whole song is slow. I don't think there are any elements of house music in the track at all, While a 4/4 electronic kick is used in both it's used in a completely different context, I think we can both agree this isn't a dance song.– officialmbc _(talk) 09:13, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Officialmbc I never said it was a "dance song" (but I do agree that it's not). I really think you're taking the definitions of these genres too literally but because I don't think this genre thing is that big a deal, here's what I'll do. I'll put hip hop as the first genre as that's clearly what it is first and foremost and I'll revert the sentence back to what I had it originally before Mr. Annoyance changed it. We'll keep house and industrial as we have RS's that day that; I'd like to see it say electronic or electronica but we can't until we find an RS that says that. Until then that's all we can do. Btw, when I said sign your posts, I didn't mean directly copy my signature. You sign with four ~'s. – zmbro _(talk) 13:53, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Zmbro So a reliable source cant apply to the concept? because there are several reliable source that state that house music is dance music. and zero sources that state this is a dance song. also "The word "source" when citing sources on Wikipedia has three related meanings:

The piece of work itself (the article, book) or song in this case? The creator of the work (the writer, journalist) The publisher of the work (for example, Random House or Cambridge University Press) Editors may also use electronic media, subject to the same criteria." so I could cite the song itself as a source. the only reason why I'm pressing this issue is because its such a wildly inaccurate classification. Officialmbc (talk) 18:18, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Officialmbc Ok you are taking these definitions WAY too literally. The word "dance" is not used once in the entire article, and I don't think the fact that one person calling this song a "house" song implies that it's 100% a "dance" song; but I did find a source that describes "Hold My Liquor" as an "anxiety-ridden quasi-ballad" so you got multiple sources that say it's a ballad. When I have free time I'll check for more sources that say different things but if it means so much to you you can do a deep dive and try to find something. I just don't really have the time to do it. – zmbro _(talk) 03:49, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

@Zmbro Jesus Christ I see what you have to deal with now, good luck buddy. – Officialmbc (talk) 10:27, 28 August 2019 (UTC)