Talk:Hogwarts founders/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Hogwarts founders. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Griffindor and the Sorting Hat

I'm going to go ahead, and remove the sorting hat as one of Griffindor's known relics. This is due to a recent interview with Rowling on the origins of the sorting hat, which seems to suggest that the Sorting Hat involved all four founders, rather than just Godrics.

ES: Has the sorting hat ever been wrong?<br\>
JKR: No.<br\> ES: Really?<br\> JKR: Mm-mm. Do you have a theory?<br\> ES: I have heard a lot of theories.<br\> JKR: [laugh] I bet you have. No. [laugh] Sorry.<br\> MA: That's interesting, because that would suggest that the voice comes more from a person's own head than the hat itself -<br\> JKR: [makes mysterious noise]<br\> MA: And that maybe when it talks on its own it comes from -<br\> JKR: The founders themselves.<br\>

http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview2.shtml

In its song in GoF, the Sorting Hat stated plainly that it was originally Gryffindor's, though each of the four founders played a role in shaping its personality:

"Twas Gryffindor who found the way<br\> He whipped me off his head<br\> The founders put some brains in me<br\> So I could choose instead!"<br\>

Whether the Sorting Hat deserves to be considered solely a relic of Gryffindor is open to question, but there is no question that it was once Gryffindor's hat. My feeling is that it reinforces the "first among equals" position that Gryffindor appears to have held among the founders.

Serendipitous 08:34, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Speculation

There are alot of assumations and speculatioons riddled throughout this article. I think that until the last book is published, speculations should be kept to a minimum, especially because some of the founders play critical roles in the next book. See the article on the HBP.

I dunno. What does everyone here think? How much speculation is good speculation? After all, we're unlikely to learn much more about the Founders at this point. Should we remove any and all speculation, or should we keep some and discard others? If so which?Serendipodous 23:03, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

I think that speculation should certainly be kept to a minimum, and it should always be made clear that it is speculation. For example, when you talk about the origin of Slytherin's first name, my objection was at the use of the word 'probably', which I think is overstating the theory. Some of the details on where the founders are from seem to read quite a lot into four lines of a Sorting Hat song, lines which probably don't have any real relevance to the story.--Victim Of Fate 11:35, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Birthdate

What is the source for Rowena Rawnclaw's birthdate?

Note to anyone intending on splitting off a section

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"What is now Britain"?

i'm curious why the four founders are said to have lived in "what is now Britain". surely it was britain then, as well. is this an attempt to avoid the anachronistic use of a term, or is it a nod to the muggle/magic divide? if the latter, i don't really know enough to comment. if the former, however, i should point out that it is reasonable to use the term britain up to the norman invasion at least. the phrasing now is rather wordy. Ptomng

It was to avoid anachronism. At the time, the nation of Great Britain did not exist, though the island now called Britain did. I made the distinction largely because I was uncertain whether Britain had gained its modern name by that time or whether it was still called "Britannia."Serendipodous 09:46, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Fan drawings

Fan drawings are original research, and thus should not be in articles. Besides, the drawing of Rowena Ravenclaw is plain wrong, I'm pretty sure she has black hair. Borisblue 00:21, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Where is it stated that she has black hair? Serendipodous 20:14, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

In the article itself. Borisblue 14:18, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, yes obviously. But this is Wikipedia; I'd feel better with a cited reference. Serendipodous 15:10, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Hey you're right, can't find anything! Darn it, I always thought she had black hair, guess that came from fanfiction. Can we remove all the false details about the founders that are here? Borisblue 17:25, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

The problem is figuring out which are the false details. JK Rowling has listed a lot of obscure facts in interviews and on her website, and it would be difficult proving how much of the information is NOT there. A lot of material on here is speculation, which is different from false information, but it would be better to clearly describe it as such.

Hm. You already seem to have removed it. I think most of your cuts are great, though I would dispute removing the link between glens and Scotland; if you're born and Britain and in a glen, it's almost inevitable that you're a Scot. Serendipodous 23:00, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh? I didn't know that. Put that back in if you feel it's right. Borisblue 01:20, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Fanart

I have removed the fan-made drawings of Godric and Rowena. We don't have any canon information on what they looked like, so any art is pure speculation.

By the way, someone could upload a picture of Slytherin's statue in the CoS movie.

Famous wizard cards

The famous wizard card information was written by Rowling. She reveals as much on the "About the Books" section of her website's FAQ. The Harry Potter Lexicon has a list of which cards were Rowling-written,[1] and the names of the four founders are among them. Serendipodous 22:18, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. My mistake. Superm401 | Talk 03:00, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

The whole "Hufflepuff from Wales" debate

While I think it's a fairly safe bet that Rowena Ravenclaw's hailing from a glen would indicate a Scottish origin, it is simply too much of a stretch to suggest that just because someone is described as being from a valley, that means she was from Wales. Yes, it is true that in Britain people from Wales are often described as being from "the valley," but valleys are not unique to Wales in the way that (in Britain anyway) glens are unique to Scotland. Helga isn't described as being from "the valley" anyway, she's "from valley broad", which is far more generic. Serendipodous 12:39, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

"Fair Ravenclaw"

Hi. I've removed the following paragraph, which I think constitutes original research and contains subjective statements.

She (Ravenclaw) is described as "fair", that is, beautiful, a trait her house appears to have inherited. Harry Potter, Percy Weasley and Dean Thomas have all developed crushes on Ravenclaw girls, and when the delegation of Beauxbatons, home of the ravishing Fleur Delacour, arrived in the Great Hall, they were seated at the Ravenclaw table. If we are to judge by the films, even the Ravenclaw ghost is a beautiful woman.

First, the adjective "fair" has many meanings of which "beautiful" or "pleasing to the eye" is but one. The characterization of the other founders ("Bold Gryffindor", "Shrewd Slytherin", "Sweet Hufflepuff") all seem to describe to non-physical qualities; similarly, "Fair Ravenclaw" could very well pertain to her clarity of mind. However, the first sentence assumes that "fair" means "beautiful".

The second sentence seems to assume several things - that Ravenclaw girls (as opposed to those from other houses) are inordinately more apt to be objects of crushes, that such crushes are responses to physical attractiveness, and that Fleur's sitting with the Ravenclaws somehow validates these. The third sentence is a subjective (and non-canon-based) observation offered as further support for the paragraph's point. In totality, the paragraph seems to be making the original contention that "good looks" is a Ravenclaw house trait. --Mercurio 17:42, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Hm. Well, I'm not going to counter your arguments about whether the paragraph is speculative [it is; in fact it's the last survivor of a series of speculative statements I made when I first drafted the article years ago, and to be honest I'm surprised it's lasted this long- I've avoided deleting it myself mainly because I wanted to see if anyone else would :-)], I think you're going overboard in your interpretation of the word "fair." The use of "fair" to mean "clear", according to the link you supplied, is meant to imply "legible", in the sense of "a fair signature", and even there it's not a common usage. I've never heard the word "fair" applied to "clarity of mind," and its use as non-physical personal quality is mainly to describe honesty and imparitality. However, if any of the four founders would be described in that vein, it would be Hufflepuff, not Ravenclaw. "Fair" when applied to a person can also mean "blonde," but that's unlikely, since her name means "red-haired" in Gaelic, or "pale", which seems an odd atribute for the Hat to praise. Hence the most likely interpretation of the word "fair" in the context of the Hat's song is "beautiful."

Hi there. As I see it, "fair" here must pertain to Ravenclaw's mind, since the Sorting Hat was apparently characterizing the four founders in the relevant verses (that's my reading of it anyway). The first definition of "fair" in the dictionary link -- "pleasing to the eye or mind, especially because of fresh, charming, or flawless quality" -- clearly shows that "fair" can apply to that which pleases mentally, whether or not you or I are familiar with the usage. Second, I don't know with you, but to me being "fair" is not simply about justice (and hence a value only attributable to Hufflepuff) but also objectivity and intellectual honesty, making it a virtue of a person with a good mind. Hence, the interpretation that "fair" here has to mean "(physically) beautiful" is a stretch for me. --Mercurio 10:07, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

By the way, if you can point me to a glen on the island of Britain that isn't in Scotland, I'll eat my virtual hat. Serendipodous 18:11, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I don't doubt that all glens in Great Britain are in Scotland. But I was editing in steps. First, I removed the parts I found questionable (e.g., that Ravenclaw was born in a glen), then I explained my reason for doing such in Talk, then I offered a factual (nonspeculative) statement of what is known from the Sorting Hat. Next, I was going to add in the part that "glen" suggested Scotland, which I consider is a bit speculative (since there are Irish glens, and it's unstated that Ravenclaw could not be from Ireland), so I wanted to put it in as a separate edit (so that it could be reverted separately). But then my internet connection cut out so I was not able to do that right away. I intend to add the glen-Scotland connection in a bit. --Mercurio 10:07, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Robin Hood, Robin Hood, riding through the glen... 61.149.182.172 10:19, 22 March 2006 (UTC)