Talk:Hodierna of Jerusalem

Hodierna of Jerusalem is currently a Royalty, nobility and heraldry good article nominee. Nominated by Surtsicna (talk) at 10:21, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

An editor has indicated a willingness to review the article in accordance with the good article criteria and will decide whether or not to list it as a good article. Comments are welcome from any editor who has not nominated or contributed significantly to this article. This review will be closed by the first reviewer. To add comments to this review, click discuss review and edit the page.

Short description: Countess of Tripoli from 1137 to 1152

Biography: Royalty and Nobility

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography
	This article is supported by WikiProject Royalty and Nobility.

Middle Ages: Crusades Low‑importance

	Middle Ages portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Middle Ages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Middle AgesWikipedia:WikiProject Middle AgesTemplate:WikiProject Middle AgesMiddle Ages
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Crusades task force.

Women's History Low‑importance

	History portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women's History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Women's history and related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women's HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject Women's HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Women's HistoryWomen's History
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Hodierna of Jerusalem/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Surtsicna (talk · contribs) 10:21, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Borsoka (talk · contribs) 13:10, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Is it well written?
A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:
Is it verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check?
A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

B. Reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose):

C. It contains no original research:

D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:
Is it broad in its coverage?
A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):
Is it neutral?
It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:
Is it stable?
It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:
Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?
A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:

B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
Overall:
Pass or Fail:

Source review

Academic sources, including a monography about Hodierna, are cited.
Hamilton (1978): ISBN is missing. Borsoka (talk) 13:20, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
References 1, 12, 16, 20, 21, 27 are verified.
Reference 26 is to be fixed (page).

Image review

File:BnF ms. 854 fol. 121v - Jaufré Rudel (2).jpg: US PD tag is needed.
File:Manuel1 Marie.jpg: US PD tag is needed; the source is a dead link (I would delete because there is no direct connection between Manuel and Hodierna).
File:Harvard Theatre Collection - Sarah Bernhardt, La Princesse Lointaine, TC-2 (cropped).jpg: US PD tag is needed. Borsoka (talk) 13:20, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

...a Frankish crusader... Frankish? Can we refer to him as a crusader at the time of Hodierna's birth?

Rephrased, but I think the word crusader has a broad meaning. Surtsicna (talk) 18:43, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

...the states established in 1099... Edessa and Antioch were established in 1098. The establishment of Edessa is not directly connected to a victory over the Muslims.

Rephrased. Surtsicna (talk) 18:43, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since he no longer expected to have a son, King Baldwin... I would rephrase because the previous sentence refers to Raymond: "Since King Baldwin...., he..."

Rephrased. Surtsicna (talk) 18:43, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

...may have been betrothed to... Attribute this PoV to a scholar. I would rephrase either this or the previous sentence about a possible betrothal (for instance, in the previous sentence "the prospect of marriage/eventual marriage/..." could be mentioned.

Attributed. I do not understand the rephrasing suggestion. Surtsicna (talk) 18:43, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would mention that the Convent of Saint Anne was in Jerusalem.

The family is mentioned as living in Jerusalem. Surtsicna (talk) 18:43, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

... in an effort to provide for her youngest sisters, Hodierna and Ioveta... Ioveta?

She is introduced in the preceding paragraph. Surtsicna (talk) 18:43, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ioveta, on the other hand, was made an abbess. Is this necessary?

No. Surtsicna (talk) 18:43, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Dealing with pretenders" is a misleading title, it implies pretenders and tacitly attributes their faith to Hodierna.

Renamed. Surtsicna (talk) 18:43, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

An anonymous monk... I would clarify that he was a French monk, or that he wrote it in France.

He was not. I clarified that he was from Mountjoy. Surtsicna (talk)

Alfonso's son Bertrand... I would mention that he was an illegitimate son.

I do not think it makes much difference. Surtsicna (talk) 18:43, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

...who seized Urayma and captured Bertrand... Close paraphrasing?

Rephrased. Surtsicna (talk) 18:43, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

...the queen had an accomplice... I would name the queen.

Done. Surtsicna (talk) 18:43, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

... he fell in love with Countess Hodierna without ever having seen her; he then sailed to Tripoli, only to die in her arms. Rephrase to avoid close paraphrasing.

Rephrased. Surtsicna (talk) 18:43, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

...with Countess Hodierna... Delete her title.

Rephrased. Surtsicna (talk) 18:43, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Link Occitan.

Linked. Surtsicna (talk) 18:43, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

...might hint that Hodierna was the first to introduce the Templars in Tripoli... Rephrase to avoid close paraphrasing.

Rephrased. Surtsicna (talk) 18:43, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

...after her father-in-law spurned them Delete (it is only an assumption and not too relevant).

Deleted. Surtsicna (talk) 18:43, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lewis speculates that Raymond envied her higher social status. This is not what Lewis writes (and page 168 should also be referred to cover the whole situation).

Added "may have". Lewis mentions Raymond's "lesser rank", "the inequality of status", and explores whether "Raymond envied Hodierna’s standing in high society". Surtsicna (talk) 18:43, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

...decided to take Hodierna back to Jerusalem. Rephrase to avoid close paraphrasing.

I do not think that such a simple sentence can be rephrased without altering the meaning. Surtsicna (talk) 18:43, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

...while he was returning to Tripoli,... He was assassinated when he arrived at the city.

Rephrased. Surtsicna (talk) 18:43, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

...his mother and aunt... I would name them.

The sentence becomes rather awkward. Baldwin III is described as Hodierna's nephew, and I inserted a further explanation that he was Melisende's son, all in the same paragraph. Surtsicna (talk) 18:43, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why do not you mention Richard's alternative view of Hodierna's regency?

Mentioned. Surtsicna (talk) 23:31, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

...Emperor Manuel I Komnenos asked King Baldwin to select a new wife for the widowed emperor... Rephrase to make it clear that Manuel was the widowed emperor.

Rephrased. Surtsicna (talk) 23:31, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

...had secretly chosen... Secretly?

The Greeks had with them a chrysobull detailing the new arrangement, suggesting that secret negotiations with the Antiochenes had begun long before Manuel’s official repudiation of Melisende of Tripoli. Surtsicna (talk) 23:31, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

...followed the "somewhat disappointing example set by his father rather than the more promising precedent of his mother",... In what?

Clarified. Surtsicna (talk) 23:31, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

...though she had a greater influence On what/who?

Clarified. Surtsicna (talk) 23:31, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

...most countesses of Tripoli are relatively obscure figures... Rephrase to avoid close paraphrasing.

Rephrased. Surtsicna (talk) 23:31, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Rudel's infatuation with Hodierna remained a topic of popular interest into the modern period, becoming the subject of the 19th-century operetta La Princesse lointaine by Edmond Rostand and a joke in one of P. G. Wodehouse’s novellas in the 20th century. Rephrase to avoid close paraphrasing. Borsoka (talk) 03:26, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Rephrased. Surtsicna (talk) 23:31, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]