Talk:Hittite Wars of Survival

Title

Hey @Kennet.mattfolk, thanks for writing this article! Given your edit summary, I thought I might chime in to note that the term "concentric invasions" is standardly used for this period and could be a suitable title for the article. Some other comments:

• The "Background" section could use a broader characterization of the political situation on the eve of these wars. To appreciate why these events were shocking, a reader needs to understand that the Hittites had firmly controlled its core territory in Hatti for the previous 200 years. But to understand why these events were possible, they also need to understand how fragile the empire was and how tenuous its control over outer regions was.

(I don't have access to the Damien Stone source, but I suspect this is what he was attempting to do when bringing up Madduwatta. I don't think Madduwatta is generally considered a cause of Hittite weakness so much as a reflection of it.)

• If you wanted to expand this further, I've always found the Pharaoh's diplomatic overtures to Arzawa really fascinating, so more information on that could be really nice to include. Similarly, I remember something about Hittite scribes exchanging personal messages in the margins of their official correspondence during this period, which gives a nice personal window into what it was like to live through this period. I think Bryce discusses this in the book you cite, though I don't have it handy.

At any rate, nice work! Botterweg (talk) 00:40, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm ok with changing the title in principle, if so I just hope it's attested in source or it's 'better' then the current one.

That said, the 'concentric invasions' was a term to describe a phase of the wars by Bryce in the book I had, meaning it didn't describe the first part with Arnuwanda fighting the Kaskians only. In that sense the new name would be painted by one phase. A similar name thus could be Hittite reconqusta if emphasis is put on that part. Originally I wanted a name to reflect the hole period.

Which is sorta back to the original problem I had of too long headers/names, 'Hittite period of concentric invasions and reconquista' :D

There was another Hittite war I wrote an article about an finding a proper name is difficult if it's not given to you. :D

One that could work that just came to me could be Hittite multi-front war, idk, that too has issues :)

The backround is based on Stones work if I'm not mistaken, he only mentioned that as a reason why it could happen. The argument stone makes isn't that of a direct cause, where because of Madduwatta invasion of Kaskians, rather as an indirect reason. Mainly that Hittites may have moved attention, resources, troops in that direction leaving it more exposed elsewhere. So when the Kaskians became hungry and look which of their neigbours would be easiest to invade, they picked Hattusa.

I saw the Arzawan aspect in one of the links I used as source, though thought I'd prefer a book source for it and never got around to checking the Bryce book. I can look it up there, though I don't remember reading it there. :)

Thnx, glad someone likes it :) Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 08:46, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Just checked, both Stone and Bryce uses the term Concentric Invasions to describe the phase where the Kaskian-Hittite war escalated into a multi front one. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 09:16, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

As to the new additions, I think I found sources to it all, though not all the best, some are website sources. I could write more background into that section, such as the the Hittites also being tied down at the Border with Mitanni and not responding efficiently to the initial early phase due to fears in that direction. However I'm limited by the source situation at my disposal. One of the links I used, frequently cited Bryce, written by a David Ross. Though the Bryce work I have at hand is a shorter, but updated version of Bryce's earlier work Kingdom of the Hittites and other works and is not necessarily detailed enough to cover all new additions. While stone covers this period in a few pages in total. :) Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 09:35, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Hey, thanks so much for doing all this! It makes me very happy to see Wikipedia's coverage of Hittite history growing. Sadly, I don't have much time to assist at the moment but if you were interested in working on this more, one additional source that could be useful is The Reign of Tudhaliya II and Suppiluliuma I, a book by Boaz Stavi that discusses this period in detail and contains citations that can point you to other literature. (Note that his "Tudhaliya II" is Tudhaliya III in the numbering used by Bryce and others.) There is also a chapter by Richard Beal in the Oxford Handbook of Ancient Anatolia entitled "Hittite Anatolia: A Political History" which contains a nice summary of this period though it isn't hugely detailed. Botterweg (talk) 02:59, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I checked out that book, it's 54€ on Amazon n (plus shipping, vat etc.) is a bit pricey for me atm, my life is in a changing phase atm. I have some time to devote to writing articles, improving this one or similar but not endless amounts. Also the next book I'm waiting for, saving up to is concerning possibly Hattusili's Civil War, that article is even more bare-bones than this one. So it might be some time before I get around to better sources for this article. Though I wish-listed the book by Stavi. :)

That said, I manage to find a short research paper via another wiki article concerning this period, however haven't gotten into it's content yet. But if I find anything in it, I'll add it to this article. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 06:50, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Btw, Bryce in his newest book calls this period 'an existential crisis'. If anyone wishes to change the name of the article this could be a good option. Say 'Hittite existential crisis', though the current title works too :) Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 23:03, 11 December 2024 (UTC)