Talk:History of swimming

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Seven Agilities

I am unable to find any information on seven agilities required to be performed by knights, or seven agilities within any document for that matter, that does not, in some way, reference this article. At these points, these references only include the act of swimming and appear to include the wiki text almost word for word.

This has lead me to believe that the origin of this information is from this page. To end confusion, I request that either a citation be found for the seven agilities of knights or that the statement be removed.

SweetRein (talk) 08:56, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No citations have been found in over 3 years, so I have removed "Swimming was initially one of the seven agilities of knights during the Middle Ages, including swimming with armour." This will hopefully reduce the number of websites that come up with this un-supported information.FrankSier (talk) 11:04, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Inconsistent?

Towards the end of this article there are 3 or more paragraphs on underwater swimming. If in 1956 six swimmers were disqualified for swimming underwater and then and a new rule was limiting the distance that can be swum under. (can you disqualify before the rule is made?) then how could it a “Another modification was developed for breaststroke. In breaststroke, breaking the water surface increases the friction, reducing the speed of the swimmer. Therefore, swimming underwater increases the speed. This led to a controversy at the 1956 Summer Olympics in Melbourne, and six swimmers were disqualified, as they repeatedly swam long distances underwater. However, one Japanese swimmer, Masaru Furukawa, circumvented the rule by not surfacing at all after the start, but swimming as much of the lane under water as possible before breaking the surface. He swam all but 5m under water for the first three 50m laps, and also swam half under water for the last lap, winning the gold medal. The adoption of this technique led to many swimmers suffering from oxygen starvation or even some swimmers passing out during the race due to a lack of air, and a new rule was introduced by the FINA, limiting the distance that can be swum under water after the start and every turn, and requiring the head to break the surface every cycle.”

“Breaking the water surface reduces the speed in swimming; this is true not only for breaststroke, but also for backstroke. The swimmers Daichi Suzuki (Japan) and David Berkoff (America) used this for the 100m backstroke at the 1988 Summer Olympics in Seoul. Berkoff swam 33m of the first lane completely underwater using only a dolphin kick, surfacing just before the turn, far ahead of his competition. A sports commentator called this a Berkoff Blastoff. Suzuki, having practiced the underwater technique for 10 years, surfaced only a little bit earlier, winning the race in 0:55.05. The rules were quickly changed in the same year by the FINA to ensure the health and safety of the swimmers, limiting the underwater phase after the start to ten meters, which was expanded to 15m in 1991. In Seoul, Kristin Otto from East Germany won six gold”

“After underwater swimming for breaststroke and backstroke, the underwater swimming technique is now also used for butterfly, for example by Denis Pankratov (Russia) or Angela Kennedy (Australia), swimming large distances underwater with a dolphin kick. FINA is again considering a rule change for safety reasons. It is currently unclear if it is possible to swim faster underwater than swimming freestyle or front crawl at the surface.”

--Yskyflyer 04:39, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the notice. I have expanded the article to make things more clear. The first paragraph refers to breastsroke only, where first it was changed to require swimming at the surface except for the period after start and finish, and then modified to limit the distances underwater after start and finish. The second paragraph refers to backstroke, and the third to butterfly, in both cases limiting the distances underwater after start and finish. Let me know if this is still confusing -- Chris 73 | Talk 08:40, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for my whole first comment. I should have said I don’t understand instead of “Inconsistent?” The Before and after change are both Perfect after you explained it to me. Thanks. I don’t know why I didn’t get it the first time. Well it’s crystal clear now. Thanks. I with think over what I type more carefully in the future before it submit. Yskyflyer--E-Bod 21:37, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No problem at all. Happens to everybody sometimes. if you don't understand it, then probably a couple of other readers did not understand it either. With your help, I was able to clarify it. Best wishes and happy editing -- Chris 73 | Talk 22:00, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Swimming has been around for a long time and it seems like a strange sport. Think about it, some people hate taking baths but they'll soak themselves in a giant tub of water for hours at a time. Now tell me what is the difference between taking a bath and that, besides the fact that pool water is nasty and bath water is clean. It's just so crazy!! I love swimming but I also like to take showers and baths. If you have kids that refuse to take a bath put bubbles in a swimming pool. You'd be surprised at the results. You'll have a happy and clean kid.

Please reference "Seven knightly agilities." I have no doubt that knights could swim in armor; However, I cannot find out what were these seven agilities or even if there really were seven knightly agilities! (the only pages I can find that speak of "knightly agilities" are references about swimming and that this was one of them.) There are "Seven knightly virtues" documented well enough but these have little to do with physical training, certainly not swimming. Atkindave 19:15, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Article is wrong

I removed this section:

"In Japan swimming was one of the noble skills of the Samurai, and historic records describe swimming competitions in 36 BC organized by emperor Suigui (spelling unclear), which are the first known swimming races."

It entered into Wikipedia with this edit, back in November 2003: http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Swimming&diff=1725486&oldid=1704753

It also appears in this article on the Internet, which cites a now-gone about.com article as source:

"A militaristic culture forms the basis of many sports and swimming is no exception. The first records describing a swimming race are from Japan in 36 B.C. which was organised by Emperor Suigui between Samurai warriors. "

—http://www.haltonsc.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=26&Itemid=199

Reasons why it's incorrect include, but aren't limited to:

It's applying militaristic stereotypes of WWII Japan under Emperor Hirohito's rule to Japanese history all the way back to before Christ
Samurais did not appear until the Kamakura period, which began in the 11th century, AD - see: Samurai
There were no Emperor Suigui - see: List of Japanese monarchs

It doesn't need a grain of salt, it's just false information, period. —Tokek (talk) 17:57, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Update: Okay, never mind about the haltonsc.com page. Apparently one of the references s/he gives at the bottom of the page is a Wikipedia MIRROR. So I'm back to zero when it comes to finding the source of this bit of text.—Tokek (talk) 18:02, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Impossible

"In 1998 Benoît Lecomte swam across the Atlantic Ocean, a total of 5,600 kilometres in 72 days, swimming 6 to 8 hours daily. He was accompanied by two sailors on a sailboat."

This gives an average speed of 9,7 km/h (assuming 8 hours swimming per day). The fastest 100 m swimmers today can the hold the speed of 7,6 km/h in less than one minute. 9,7 km/h in 8 hours is impossible! The whole item is therefore a hoax or a misunerstanding. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.71.38.142 (talk) 12:38, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

According to [1] "During his journey, Benoit swam around 8 hours per day beside the Falbala, a forty-foot sailboat. When not swimming, he spent his time drifting on board with the two-crew members." So that's 16 hours a day possibly being carried by ocean currents in the required direction, and with possibly a following wind. There are links in the Benoît Lecomte article about the controversy. There is also link to a BBC News article [2] which says he "swum a colossal 3,716 miles", and I am surprised at the BBC at not doing the calculation to see whether this is reasonable. FrankSier (talk) 01:48, 1 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Information re first competitive swimming race in Japan in 36 BC confirmed and referenced at haltonsc.com; Direct Communication, Mary Donahue,(faculty.deanza.edu) who cites Red Cross Swimming and Diving (1992) as the source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.239.180.117 (talk) 12:40, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Kill Kill Kill

The article reads "swimming competitions were also large gatherings where babies were slaughtered". You must be kidding to include such illogical things without any reference. Guidod (talk) 01:44, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:History of swimming/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

In the middle ages section: "Swimming was initially one of the seven agilities of knights during the Middle Ages, including swimming with armour. "

I think that needs a citation. I've been trying to find out about these specifically, and all I can find are modern references (about swimming) that say "swimming with armor was one of the seven agilities of knights" or words to that effect.

What I can not find are any verifiable historical references to the knights' seven agilities, or even what the other six were supposed to be! I do not doubt that many knights could indeed swim, and it has been documented that swimming in armor is possible. On the other hand, as far as I can tell, somebody made up the quasi-mystical references to "knights' seven agilities" recently.

I'd love to be wrong. But I need to be shown.

Last edited at 16:29, 25 April 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 18:03, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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Link broken or incorrect

Is it possible that the link in Reference number one is broken or incorrect? Davida975 (talk) 10:24, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]