Talk:His Dark Materials (TV series)

Premise: "real world" or "our world"?

There is some dispute over whether the premise should read "The witches' prophecy also links Lyra's destiny to Will Parry, a teenager from the real world" or "The witches' prophecy also links Lyra's destiny to Will Parry, a teenager from our world".

There is no indication that our everyday world is any more real than the other worlds explored in the books and TV series – or, rather, that the parallel worlds are any less real.

Even though "our world" contravenes WP:OUR, surely this is not cast in stone and is far clearer in this instance? Or can you think of something more appropriate? Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 11:59, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

@Esowteric I reverted the original change from "real world" to "our world" because MOS:OUR is (unusually) very clear: "an article should never refer to its editors or readers". It states that some such forms are acceptable in certain figurative uses (examples are historical articles and scientific writing (but recasting is preferable). I don't think this article qualifies as an exception, so your challenge remains. My own preference would be simply to state that Will Parry comes from an Oxford in a world different from Lyra's.

Separately, is there any reliable source which states that Will Parry's world is in fact the one we all inhabit? Bazza (talk) 16:19, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Bazza 7. Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 20:48, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

P.S. And I don't like "the conventional world" (the current text) either: nobody could accuse PP of being conventional. Given that all readers of Wikipedia necessarily live in "our world", I don't see that phrase as a reference to any particular editor or readers. Alan-24 (talk) 11:25, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

A page before the Contents page in The Subtle Knife (the book, my copy printed in 1998) includes: "This volume moves between three universes: the universe of NORTHERN LIGHTS, which is like ours but different in many ways; the universe we know; and a third universe, which differs from ours in many ways again."

So the original author is quite explicit that Will's universe is "ours" or "the universe we know". To headline Will's world as "different from Lyra's" would feel to me like obfuscation. But "the real world" is also alien to the book: within the story, all 3 universes (and the extra ones introduced in vol 3) are all seen as equally real. Alan-24 (talk) 11:21, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Worth noting that, in a slightly bizarre choice, William McGregor is credited as '"This World" Director' in series 1. U-Mos (talk) 14:48, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

The Guardian

@Neilinabbey: I undid your edit because, although The Guardian's own house style uses "the" for titles of newspapers, this article is not in The Guardian. Wikipedia's MOS requires "The Guardian" because the newspaper title includes "the". Bazza (talk) 13:54, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Ok, if that's Wikipedia's preference. Seems a little disrespectful to the Guardian, but I understand the reasoning.Neilinabbey (talk) 13:58, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Description of series 1's reception

Could someone verify the following recent changes to the description of the reception given for series 1, at Rotten Tomatoes?

2601:5C1:4580:1330:5D47:E1B7:854B:770B (talk · contribs · WHOIS) changed the lede from:

All three series received generally positive reviews.

to While the first series received mostly mixed and low scores,"[2] the second and third series received generally positive reviews.

and Reception from:

Series one received positive reviews from critics.

to Series one received mixed-to-negative reviews from critics..

I note that the average rating has gone down from 6.99/10 to 5.75/10, but these descriptive changes sound too critical to me. Thanks, Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 19:12, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Overlong infobox and confused main casting

@Alex 21

As per WP:Infobox usage criteria, the listings should be kept brief and to the point. Current infobox for His Dark Materials (TV series) here for is overlong and contains almost all the cast, well beyond the core starring actors, and includes far too guest / one episode actors who are irrelevant.

Next time, follow WP:revert procedure and do not revert an edit, just because you disagree, but raise the issue in this talk page so as to raise a consensus on the issue. Your usage of the revert is the start of you creating an edit war WP:EW, which you should not start.

The main cast list needs pruning to concentrate on the main actors only, with the guest and recurrent roles being moved into a separate list followed by the voice cast. The episodes mixed the main, guest, and recurrent roles together in the credits and only showed actors in episodes in which they appeared. Voice cast were then listed afterwards. Typically, UK programmes do not follow US shows habit of extensive differentiation of the levels of roles.

As an example of poor Wikipedia listing, below are 2 roles - one created for the tv series - that appear briefly for no more than a few scenes in a single episode and are just interesting cameo pieces not starring roles:

• Georgina Campbell as Adele Starminster, a reporter (series 1)
• Terence Stamp as Giacomo Paradisi, the bearer of the subtle knife residing in Cittàgazze (series 2)

Both are very good actors, with the latter reprising an interest as he had portrayed Lord Asriel in the BBC Radio version 20 years ago, which you are no likely to recall.

The entire article would be better served with better sorting of the roles into a smaller core main cast with the either a single guest and recurring list or splitting this into two, with the voice cast afterwards. I shall prune the infobox list again, and if you want to discuss the listing thereafter, do so here on the talk page.

ASC Camsteerie (talk) 08:50, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

The infobox only includes those that have been credited as main cast within the series itself; no guest actors are included. Those "one episode" actors, despite only appearing in one episode, have still been credited as main cast, thus their inclusion. You have no further criteria is how you have trimmed these actors, other than your own personal declarations of who is important and who is not. The inclusion is currently based on WP:TV and MOS:TV standards, not simply "because [I] disagree".

If Georgina Campbell and Terence Stamp are listed under Main Cast, that is because they were credited as so. If you disagree with that, I recommend you discuss it with the producers as to why they were credited as such.

You have been directed to remain on this talk page. Do so. -- Alex_21 _TALK 22:17, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

@Alex 21

Again I point out that you took the first steps to edit warring by not following guidance on reverting, where you raise the issue on the talk page before any attempt at reverting following WP:Revert protocols.

Where are these actors credited as main cast? Show the main cast listing with a link. Currently there is not a reference for this.

The BBC website hold only a main cast list for the 1st series on [[1]] giving just 7 roles. Each episode on the BBC website shows a list of some of the actors in the episode but does not ascribe a any to main casting. The listing of the actors and their roles in the credits do not identify main, guest, or recurrent actors.

Your own reference upon which you rely MOS:TV#Cast and characters information is clear that:

• "Remember to follow the notability guidelines when creating a cast list; not every character deserves to be listed and fewer will justify an individual article (most series have no characters that need stand-alone articles). It may be appropriate to split the cast listing by "Main" and "Recurring" cast or characters. If the series is long-running, and has a large number of recurring guest stars, it may be better to create a separate list of characters articles (see below for style guidelines on "List of ..." pages)."

Therefore, as per WP:NFICT, the application of restrictive criteria - i.e. only major characters appearing across many episodes in the series is applicable criterion. Cameo roles should be noted but not ascribed to the main cast.

So let's consider this BBC media pack [[2]] with the 7 listed main cast for series 1 and at the end is a list of the cast though there are notable omissions even so. The linked pages from this do not have a definitive list.

The production company Bad Wolf [[3]] does not have any definitive cast list nor does it differentiate the roles of those actors it has listed.

The BBC Radio Times does give cast listing per episode but again does not ascribe any role as main cast. [[4]] In the series 2, episode 4, listing we have the cameo role by Terence Stamp credited above a main cast members Andrew Scott and Ariyon Bakare, simply because Stamp has a long list of appearances in feature films as well as tv. The cameo is good and gives a plot point and pushes the story on, but the role is minor and cannot be identified as a main cast role.

So where have you sourced your definitive listing of the actors, their roles, and significance thereof? Please post your main cast list for all to see.

[BTW - If this is a competition, I have been editing with Wikipedia for 2 decades.]

ASC Camsteerie (talk) 05:16, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Again I point out that you took the first steps to edit warring by not following guidance on reverting - Incorrect. Read my last edit summary.

Where are these actors credited as main cast? Show the main cast listing with a link. Currently there is not a reference for this - The primary credits of the series itself. Open any episode, and verify the order, as can any other editor who wishes to confirm this. This is the same standard as the tens of thousands of other television articles - disagree with that? Discuss at WT:TV. Per MOS:TVCAST, you (very conveniently) forgot The cast listing should be ordered according to the original broadcast credits, with new cast being added to the end of the list, and Please keep in mind that although "main" cast members are determined by the producers (not by popularity, screen time, or episode count) and generally have a set order in the credits.

Therefore, as per WP:NFICT - NFICT is an essay. MOS:TV is a recognized Manual of Style. The latter takes precendence.

Cameo roles should be noted but not ascribed to the main cast - If they are credited as such, they are listed as such. What is "main cast" is not your personal defintion.

Hope that helps you as a newer registered editor. Happy editing! -- Alex_21 _TALK 08:58, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

@Alex 21

You are incorrect as you undertook the first reversion of a "good faith edit" without going to the talk first. WP:Revert#When to revert clearly states not to revert an edit in these circumstances, but to try and understand what is being done. Quoting:

"Reverting is appropriate mostly for vandalism or other disruptive edits. The Wikipedia edit warring policy forbids repetitive reverting.

"If you see a good-faith edit that you believe lowers the quality of the article, make a good-faith effort to reword instead of just reverting it. Similarly, if you make an edit that is good-faith reverted, do not simply reinstate your edit – leave the status quo up, or try an alternative way to make the change that includes feedback from the other editor.

"If there is a dispute, editors should work towards consensus. Instead of engaging in an edit war, which is harmful, propose your reverted change on the article's talk page or pursue other dispute resolution alternatives.

"Do not revert an otherwise good edit solely because an editor used a poor edit summary or has a bad username. You cannot remove or change prior edit summaries by reverting, even if you made the edit in question. If an edit summary violates the privacy policy or otherwise qualifies for oversighting or deletion, then see Help:Edit summary § Fixing. Otherwise, ignore it. In the case of a bad username, see WP:BADNAME."

I had to raise this with you on the talk page because incorrectly you made a knee-jerk reversion. Also you did not fully explain why you did so.

So, no you have not got any list of the cast and if they are main, recurring, or guest. You cannot refer to any formal listing except on the broadcast episodes.

From each episode's credits, yes the actors are mentioned, but nothing of their order indicates main cast or recurring as it is currently listed on this webpage. There is a list of the cast then a list of the voice cast.

I repeat from MOS:TV#Cast and characters information:

"Remember to follow the notability guidelines when creating a cast list; not every character deserves to be listed and fewer will justify an individual article (most series have no characters that need stand-alone articles). It may be appropriate to split the cast listing by "Main" and "Recurring" cast or characters. If the series is long-running, and has a large number of recurring guest stars, it may be better to create a separate list of characters articles (see below for style guidelines on "List of ..." pages)."

Also, WP:NFICT is not an essay and it should not be ignored.

There is already an arbitrary split with main and recurring, when the broadcast episodes do not split the cast in this way. This current split on the webpage does not hold any logic. Please explain why some roles are differentiated into the "Recurring" group?

The main cast is defined by producers typically, but they chose not to differentiate the listing except for voice-only.

MOS:TV you refer to also requires for the main cast list to be short. As Bad Wolf and the BBC only indicate 7 people as main cast for the first series, but none thereafter, a simple set of criteria need to be applied to whittle the excessive main cast list down to an appropriate size, placing the ones removed into guest and recurring lists indicated by their appearances. That follows the MOS:TV guidance.

ASC - And drop the sarcasm Camsteerie (talk) 09:55, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

No need to ping me, I follow this talk page.

as you undertook the first reversion of a "good faith edit" without going to the talk first - And you undertook the first bold edit that was reverted. See BRD.

I had to raise this with you on the talk page because incorrectly you made a knee-jerk reversion - See your talk page for every other editor who has told you otherwise.

The Wikipedia edit warring policy forbids repetitive reverting - So why did you?

I repeat from MOS:TV#Cast and characters information - I repeat from MOS:TV#Cast and characters information: "The cast listing should be ordered according to the original broadcast credits". You cannot refer to any formal listing except on the broadcast episodes. So... exactly what MOS:TV says. Glad you understand this now!

There is already an arbitrary split with main and recurring, when the broadcast episodes do not split the cast in this way - Main = opening broadcast credits, in order. Recurring and guest = every other credit. I'm not sure what's quite so hard for you to understand this extremely simple concept.

Please explain why some roles are differentiated into the "Recurring" group? - It's almost like this is the third time I've said so. Main = opening broadcast credits, in order. Recurring and guest = every other credit. I'm not sure what's quite so hard for you to understand this extremely simple concept.

Let me know if you're still confused about any other simple concepts. Happy editing! -- Alex_21 _TALK 21:20, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm so interested in this idea of deciding to side with reducing infobox bloat and then intentionally adding to it. -- Alex_21 _TALK 10:56, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

@Alex 21

I was just completing the list, using your logic.

ASC Camsteerie (talk) 11:34, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Which I have also reverted for a reason. Per Template:Infobox television: this is for "The director of cinematography or lead cameraman." Not "cinematographers across all episodes".

Glad we've concluded the discussion about Main cast. -- Alex_21 _TALK 20:25, 17 December 2024 (UTC)