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Untitled

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Although I can identify with the sarcasm here, this is a NPOV. 192.115.133.141 08:57, 28 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Numbers?

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What is the meaning of the numbers commencing the lines:

from 20-23: half a pint of lentils moistened with cold water 23-27: dry bread with salt and water 27-30: wild herbs and roots 31-35

--Philopedia 13:03, 22 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose is how old he was. He lived until 80 years old. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gmelfi (talkcontribs)

Early life

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"It seems that he was concerted in Alexandria." Can someone translate this into English? EEye 14:10, 6 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is this another Hilarion on the painting?

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Please read these sources about origin of the name of Cypriot castle "St. Hilarion":

  1. The castle is named, not after St. Hilarion the Great, the founder of monasticism in Palestine who died near Paphos about A.D. 371, but after a later saint, of whom little is known.
  2. The castle is named after a little known hermit who fled Palestine during the 7th century to live and die up here, purging the mountain of pagan demons. It is said that the hermit was stone deaf, so was able to resist the tempting cries of the demons who stalked the mountains with ease. The demons finally admitted defeat, and left Hilarion and the mountain in peace. A Byzantine monastery, and later a fort sprang up around his tomb

I seams, that we have to hermits with the same name: Hilarion. In the story of Gaza-born Hilarion there is no such a story, what we can see on the Dominique Papety painting. So it must be the story of the other man, who lived among the Kyrenia mountains centuries later. And in his case, the painting is a mistake in this article.

Is that possible? Piraeus (talk) 21:05, 25 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Founder of monasticism in Palestine?

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"As there were no monasteries in Palestine or Syria at the time..." Refs: Binns (1994), p. 154 and Ward (2014).

and

"Hilarion established a monastery during the reign of emperor Constantius (337–361)". Ref: Bitton-Ashkelony & Kofsky (2006), p. 13.

So at first just Hilarion by himself in his hut (308+22=330, so between c. 308-330). Then he performs the miracle, and in 337 the earliest there is a monastery. So until then he's just a hermit, and his is not the oldest monastery in Palestine or Syria. See Chariton and the lavra of Pharan, which is in the hill country at some distance, but as much within Palestine as the Gaza region has ever been, and - according to literary sources, but w/o archaeological confirmation - older by several years than Hilarion's monastery - see here at the HUJI Digital Corpus of Early Christian Churches and Monasteries in the Holy Land: "Founded by Chariton ca. 330 CE based on literary sources (see literary sources section)." So the claim that Hilarion was the founder of monasticism in Palestine (& Syria?) is based on him being the first hermit there, not on him founding the oldest monastery? Is the claim based on Jerome alone? Was Jerome aware of Chariton and Pharan, did he write about them? Arminden (talk) 15:03, 16 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Arminden, good questions! Based on the readings I used when working on this article, I would say that the claim is based on Jerome alone, who, using the life of Anthony as inspiration and literary model, also might have wanted to give Hilarion equal importance (I think it was also mentioned in one of the articles I used, I will try to find it). With respect to whether the claim is based on Hilarion being the first hermit or founding the oldest monastery, I think it is tricky as it can be difficult to separate... It seems to me that when Jerome wrote (as also cited in Binns (1994) p. 154 you cite above) 'There were no monasteries in Palestine nor did anyone know anything about monks in Syria before the holy Hilarion' he had in mind the ascetic way of life which started to become more popular outside of Egypt. In the end, it started by certain people like Anthony, Chariton or Hilarion to isolated places and then attracting by their lifestyle people that wanted to learn from them and live as them. So it seems to me Jerome was describing the phenomenon of living an ascetic life, which he indeed later also started living himself for some time and if I remember correctly another historian also suggested that Jerome wrote his three hagiographies of saints (Hilarion, Malchus and Paulus the First Hermit) in order to provided his fellow monks and nuns (at the monastery of Paula) with a guideline (again, I will need to find the exact reference, sorry).
On the other hand, it is likely that Jerome was not aware of Chariton and Pharan. John Chryssavgis writes in his introduction to the Letters of Barsanuphius and John (2006) p.4 'Jerome is apparently unaware of the long pre-history of the region', which would not surprise me given that he came to Palestine as an outsider.
Anyway, I would agree with Binns (again p. 154) 'These alternative traditions surrounding the origins of monasticism in the fourth century confirm the view that there was no single identifiable source for the monastic life.' and Bitton-Ashkelony & Kofsky (2006), p. 9 'Since it is not possible to resolve the question of the beginnings of monasticism in Palestine, we content ourselves here with the observation that whether or not Hilarion was the first of the Palestinian monks, he is certainly to be counted among the first notable figures in Gaza monasticism.'
Maybe it would be therefore better to write in the introduction something like: 'While Jerome suggests that Hilarion introduced monasticism from Egypt to Palestine and Syria, modern historians are more cautious but still consider Hilarion as one of the first notable figures.' PontiffSulivahn (talk) 22:16, 16 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hi PontiffSulivahn, and I'm really, really grateful for your answer! It's rare that one comes to a talk-page and learns something, rather than squabble or get POV answers. You've done the reading I have skipped. Those were hugely interesting times and understanding them better helps with getting a perspective with phenomena still moving lots of people today, but which they take for granted w/o realising that they evolved as part of a process, and started at a specific point in time. Thanks for the great work! Arminden (talk) 00:55, 17 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Arminden, I am happy if my answer was helpful to you and I am happy you could learn something. I fully agree that those were really interesting times and that understanding that time (or trying so) gives a new perspective to the times, the people and the effects they had on today. (Un)Fortunately there is so much to learn about...
BTW, if you are at it, the articles on monasticism could surely benefit from your work! PontiffSulivahn (talk) 20:31, 18 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, but I shouldn't actually be at it :) Monks nowadays don't usually have to think about their livelyhood, whereas lay people are a bit more challenged. Arminden (talk) 20:58, 18 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Byname is problematic

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The bynames of most saints should not be part of the title in an encyclopaedia, se for instance Oxford Reference. This applies primarily where the bynames are not used in all denominations, or where they vary, as is the case here. We don't have a problem with leaving out "St" before the name, so this should be easy.

Exceptions are those whose bynames have become an invariable, integral part of their name, such as John the Baptist or John Chrysostom.

Hilarion is only called "the Great" by the Orthodox, it seems. Catholics and others don't use that byname, but instead add "abbot" behind the name in their entries, or the byname "of Thavata/Thabata" or "of Gaza".

So, how shall we rename (move) the page?

This applies to several Desert Fathers recognised as saints also in the West! Arminden (talk) 02:00, 17 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oops, just noticed: this is not really the right page to bring it up. Nevertheless! Arminden (talk) 02:34, 17 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Editing minutiae

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Hi Bis-Serjetà?.

I would like to ask you a few questions and make a couple kind requests or observations.

You wrote no edit summary. Not all edits are self-explanatory. I sometimes forget that too, but I'm trying not to. Thank you.

Life years: especially in cases like here, where people are considered to be "the first/initiator/founder of...", or when the question about when their biographies were written is highly relevant, it's essential to see those years right away, w/o the need for clicking on links. Pls don't remove them. Thanks.

Byname: pls see topic here-above.

Using a template for c. ('circa'): {{Circa|1857}}. How does that help? For me it just clogs the text, same as other such coding contraptions, probably meant to avoid separating letters from numbers at the end of a line. Is that it? How does that disturb anyone?

I'm editing on my phone. Small screen. For a visually balanced layout, it helps avoiding endless letter sausages, so in a case like [[Chariton the Confessor|Chariton]] I add a space next to the | symbol, on the side of the longest adjacent word ([[Chariton the Confessor |Chariton]]). Please let those spaces be, they can't possibly disturb anyone.

At "See also": essential, concise info is user-friendly. In the case of Saint Hilarion Monastery, adding "near Gaza" helps, I am sure, as there are many by that name - and the user shouldn't be forced to click first to figure out which.

Nothing to do with you, just using the opportunity: in obvious cases, adding "language= en" is superfluous (and btw, the abbr. 'lang' does the job as well anyway). Arminden (talk) 02:31, 17 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]