Talk:Hidden children during the Holocaust

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On 29 September 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Hidden children. The result of the discussion was Moved to Hidden children during the Holocaust.

Advocacy and tone of article

DEALT WITH: While it is certainly a noble cause to increase awareness of financial compensation that may be available from the German government for persons that were in hiding from Nazi aggression while children, it is not appropriate for a Wikipedia article to advocate or encourage specific action on the part of its readers. I mention this now, just because I am sure that if I don't, that there will soon be concerns posted about this article being too much like an advertisement, etc.

DEALT WITH: For instance: "The extra trauma suffered by these Hidden Children has been recognized in a most remarkable fashion... ...Any Hidden Child who reads this should in fact make a claim for this payment"

DEALT WITH; AN EXCELLENT SUGGESTION - I WAS NOT AWARE OF THAT ENTRY!!!! This is not to say that there is not information and perspective on this topic that could be added Wikipedia and provide additional resources and enrichment for its readers.

Have we considered trying to incorporate some of this information into the article Children in the Holocaust, and perhaps discussing potential enhancements on that article's talk page, with editors who have already contributed to that article?

I appreciate the efforts that have been put into this topic thus far, and it is because I think it is an important topic that I raise these concerns and am suggesting the approach above. KConWiki (talk) 15:45, 1 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please restore to "Hidden Children." (two upper-case words). THANK YOU

It really should be "Hidden Children" (two upper-case words), and not "Hidden children" (ONE upper-case word).

The opening sentence of the article SHOULD be "Hidden Children (two upper-case words) were the (mainly Jewish) children who, during the Holocaust, were hidden in various different ways, in order to save them from the Nazis."

This is a "particular group" of children. This particular group is NAMED or called "The Hidden Children."

This has been INCORRECTLY CHANGED TO: "Hidden children were the (mainly Jewish) children who, during the Holocaust, were hidden in various different ways, in order to save them from the Nazis."

That current sentence is clearly WRONG: "Hidden children" (ONE upper-case word) refers to a MUCH LARGER group of children than as described in that sentence.

============

A similar example: "Tehran children" refers to many many children.

BUT "Tehran Children" (two upper-case words) refers to s special group https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Tehran_Children_(book) or Tehran_Children_(book). Specifically Tehran Children (two upper-case words) refers to "nearly 1,000 child refugees who travelled from Central Asia to the Middle East as they fled the conflict in the aftermath of the amnesty for Polish citizens in the Soviet Union which allowed for a large scale evacuation of Polish civilians from the USSR."

Sadly there is no direct WIKI article on the Tehran Children (two upper-case words).

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Both "Tehran Children" (two upper-case words) and "Hidden Children" (two upper-case words) are terms that have been created by Holocaust scholars and others to represent certain defined groups that are part of Holocaust History.

I am an expert in Holocaust Studies, and I use both of these technical terms as NAMES of certain groups.

A name often has more than one word - think of the White House, or of your own full name.

Please restore to "Hidden Children." (two upper-case words). THANK YOU Kacser (talk) 03:10, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

=========================================================================

NEW TOPIC: Should article be named "Hidden Children" or "Hidden Children?" Kacser (talk) 03:14, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

NEW TOPIC: Should article be named "Hidden Children;" or "Hidden children?" (one upper-case word)

Please restore to "Hidden Children." (two upper-case words). THANK YOU

It really should be "Hidden Children" (two upper-case words), and not "Hidden children" (ONE upper-case word).

The opening sentence of the article SHOULD be "Hidden Children (two upper-case words) were the (mainly Jewish) children who, during the Holocaust, were hidden in various different ways, in order to save them from the Nazis."

This is a "particular group" of children. This particular group is NAMED or called "The Hidden Children."

This has been INCORRECTLY CHANGED TO: "Hidden children were the (mainly Jewish) children who, during the Holocaust, were hidden in various different ways, in order to save them from the Nazis."

That current sentence is clearly WRONG: "Hidden children" (ONE upper-case word) refers to a MUCH LARGER group of children than as described in that sentence.

============

A similar example: "Tehran children" refers to many many children.

BUT "Tehran Children" (two upper-case words) refers to s special group https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Tehran_Children_(book) or Tehran_Children_(book). Specifically "Tehran Children" (two upper-case words) refers to "nearly 1,000 child refugees who travelled from Central Asia to the Middle East as they fled the conflict in the aftermath of the amnesty for Polish citizens in the Soviet Union which allowed for a large scale evacuation of Polish civilians from the USSR."

Sadly there is no direct WIKI article on the Tehran Children (two upper-case words).

Clearly "Tehran children" (one upper-case word) refers to many many more children than does the very specialized group "Tehran Children" (two upper-case words) as defined above.

==========

Both "Tehran Children" (two upper-case words) and "Hidden Children" (two upper-case words) are terms that have been created by Holocaust scholars and others to represent certain defined groups that are part of Holocaust History.

I am an expert in Holocaust Studies, and I use both of these technical terms as NAMES of certain groups.

A name often has more than one word - think of the White House, or of your own full name.

Please restore to "Hidden Children." (two upper-case words). THANK YOU Kacser (talk) 03:10, 27 September 2022 (UTC) Kacser (talk) 03:23, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 29 September 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Hidden children during the Holocaust. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 04:56, 16 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hidden Children → Hidden children – Proposing lowercase since this term is clearly not a proper name and is not capitalized in the body of any of the cited sources that I could find (only in title-case headlines). I originally performed this move without discussion, but just self-reverted that after an objection on the article Talk page. Although I performed a self-revert in response to the objection, I still have the same opinion. The objection seems like advocacy of a different capitalization convention to me, as discussed at MOS:SIGCAPS, with the idea that capital letters should be used to signify that this is a "special group" of children. My impression is that capitalization to indicate specialness is not supported by Wikipedia policies and guidelines. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:25, 29 September 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 23:24, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support per sentence case. Probably one that can just be moved without a real controversy. Or maybe a name change to Hidden children of the Holocaust. Randy Kryn (talk) 18:27, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This n-gram is interesting], and so is this one, so will wait to endorse until discussion resolves. Maybe the name change would be best after all. Randy Kryn (talk) 18:36, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think the second n-gram is the relevant one. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:23, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support Hidden children during the Holocaust, as the descriptor 'hidden children', especially if lowercased (many page sources uppercase), has little meaning without context. It could be mistaken as another name for 'Hide and seek'. Saying "John Doe was a hidden child" would initially confuse, while "John Doe was a hidden child during the Holocaust" lays it all out immediately. Randy Kryn (talk) 02:35, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support Hidden children during the Holocaust. It's a proper noun so it should not be capitalized based on our general article title formatting rules, and I agree with the above comment that a more descriptive title is helpful. Rreagan007 (talk) 18:47, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. This is about literal hidden children, not about a work titled "Hidden Children". JIP | Talk 22:15, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Use Jewish hidden children during the Holocaust, since "hidden children" have occurred throughout history to various groups, so the current title is not elucidating. Indeed hidden children are a feature of many (hidden) marriages and succession disputes througout history. And the hidden Marrano children were brought up outwardly Catholic slowly losing their Sephardic roots after the Reconquista. Or children hidden during other pogroms of against groups -- 65.92.247.226 (talk) 06:20, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support This is in no way inherently a proper name but intrinsically about children that were hidden. That the term predates WW2 (per ngrams) is because of The Hidden Children (a 1917 film based on a book from 1914) and a review of Google books would indicate it relates to capitalisation through to the present. If the term is not capitalised in the article, it is not necessary capitalisation per MOS:CAPS and WP:NCCAPS. To the proposed longer alternatives, per WP:CRITERIA at WP:AT they fail at multiple points. It is sufficiently recognisable already. There is no title conflict with other articles of similar cases that would require disambiguation and justify a longer title. Cinderella157 (talk) 08:26, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Move to Hidden children during the Holocaust. Shwcz (talk) 15:28, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.