Talk:Heroic Age of Antarctic Exploration

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This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured list on December 10, 2012.

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December 17, 2008	Featured list candidate	Promoted

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Comment

Congratulations on getting this featured. However, the problem of the German flag I mentioned in the FAC still stands: the German flag listed in the article is anachronistic. You want German Empire instead (or Germany) instead.--Jackyd101 (talk) 15:58, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I forgot to do this - it is now done, and thanks for pointing it out. Brianboulton (talk) 11:21, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Accidents galore!

Any particular reason why Robert Brissendon is listed as having been the victim of an accidental drowning? Other than the poor depressed chap in Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World, I've never interpreted drowning to be intentional.

Also, for Charles Bonnor, instead of Accident (fell from ship's mast), why not just write Fell from ship's mast? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 16:58, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fair points both; have amended as suggested. Brianboulton (talk) 10:46, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

North pole achievement is disputed

The current version of this entry states that "During the course of these expeditions the geographical and magnetic poles were both reached." -- but Peary's having reached the North Pole is disputed. This sentence needs at least a citation, and some further qualification as well. Clevelander96 (talk) 03:30, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Peary's claim was accepted at the time; the disputes came later. I have added a footnote, with citations, to explain the position. You are welcome to add further explanatory text if you think it necessary. Brianboulton (talk) 11:10, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Obvious error in first sentence...

The Heroic Age of Antarctic Exploration describes an era which extended from the end of the 21st century to the early 1920s.[1]

???

The /end/ of the /21st/ century? does someone know something I don't?

Can someone who actually knows something about the subject please correct this -.o;

Hideki (talk) 06:33, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Someone's idea of a clever joke, I think. Since corrected. Brianboulton (talk) 10:32, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Robert falcon scott.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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File:Pole-observation.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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The Ross Sea Party was part of the Imperial Trans-Antarctic Expedition

...and consequently, only the ITAE should be included in the list of expeditions.

The Ross Sea party was one of two groups of explorers that set out to support the single most important goal of the ITAE, that of the crossing of the continent via the pole by Ernest Shackleton and his men. Often, in contemporary and later accounts, the other party, the Weddell Sea party, is taken as synonymous with the ITAE partly because it was the party that initially brought the famous expedition leader, Shackleton, to the Antarctic, and the Ross Sea party, if addressed at all, is mentioned separately. The reasons for this may be complex and not limited to the fact that Shackleton never made it across the continent to connect with the disparate Ross Sea Party. However, that does not mean that Ross Sea party was not part of the ITAE. The planning for the expedition called for the coordinated efforts of the two parties. Fulfilling the purpose of the expedition required both parties. And presumably, both parties were spawned from the same expedition funds. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.42.81.203 (talk) 06:38, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Australasian not Australian

The Australasian Antarctic Expedition was a cooperative effort by Australia and New Zealand and yet is credited as Australian only. Can someone proficient in table edits correct this please? Djapa Owen (talk) 09:17, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

White Ensign

The Quest sailed in 1921-22 under the White Ensign, but the expedition is flagged in this article with the Union Jack. If the purpose of the flags in this article are to serve as nationalistic identifiers, then the right flag is there right now; but if the purpose is to identify the historic identities of the ships after which each expedition is named, then the flag ought to be changed. Bigturtle (talk) 19:20, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I beleive the intention is to identify national origin as a number of the other vessels would have also been sailing under naval ensigns (although not all) and none are represented thus in the table. Personally I feel the current situation is acceptable. Djapa Owen (talk) 23:39, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Rude, unrefined" sounds rather elitist

"The explorers of this age are not remembered merely as scientists and sailors; on one hand objective, calculating, and on the other rude, unrefined." Is it reasonable to suggest all sailors are by nature rude and unrefined? Neither the writings of Stan Taylor [1] nor Bert Lincoln [2] strike me as either rude or unrefined. Perhaps we can move into the 21st century and abandon the class attitudes of the 19th? Djapa Owen (talk) 23:29, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wooden ships

Why were wooden ships used so often in this? Seems like metal ones were mainstream at the time, for everything else. --184.158.88.47 (talk) 21:07, 22 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wooden ships were still quite common well into the 20th century. The metal hulls of the time were usually riveted which did not necessarily result in a structure which was as resilient as a metal plated wooden hull. Modern icebreakers have welded metal hulls which are probably much stronger. Djapa Owen (talk) 22:36, 22 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Edgar Evans

I think in his case the cause of death should also be "brain damage". What do you think? — Preceding unsigned comment added by AllYourPowers (talk • contribs) 14:25, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure if that would be technically accurate, do we have any medically educated eyes on this who could offer an opinion? Certainly head injury would be a reasonable inclusion. Djapa Owen (talk) 14:44, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well that was Dr Wilson's diagnosis. He was definitely weakened by scurvy and cold (I don't know about the "starvation" part I think it was a bit too early for that at that point). But of course he died much earlier than the others and I wouldn't say it was only because of his size or even his wounded hand but rather a mix o all that, so scurvy, cold and that terrible fall he had merely two weeks before his death. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AllYourPowers (talk • contribs) 15:20, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have not seen that quote. I am not sure though that we might not use the term brain damage a little differently thn we might have 100 years ago, but you may be right. If you have a reference for Dr Wilson's diagnosis (or if it is in one of the references listed already) and you want to change it to brain damage then I think that would be reasonable. I also think your comment about starvation makes sense. Djapa Owen (talk) 02:51, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

PS; you know about signing your posts don't you? Put four tildes as shown just below the edit window and you will get a neater signature at the end of your post.

I doubt that Wilson was able to give a correct diagnosis in such circumstances or that this is how how he described it in his journal (which I haven't read and I'm not even sure it was published). I thought I've read it in one of the books but it turned out I was just quoting Susan Solomon. She also added "scurvy, dehydration, high altitude, or a combination of all these factors" so in general all that unpleasantness that comes with a death in the Antarctic. Not that we can add all that and the fact that with him being so sturdy he had higher sensivity to cold or that it was basically Oates's old war wound that killed him. This can be included in their respective articles but the description here has to be as brief as possible so I say what we have now is enough. We'll never know more about his death than we do know. We definitely know more about his than Mackintosh and Hayward's. AllYourPowers (talk) 17:27, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Source section missing Fisher's book

The article uses "Fisher" a couple of times as a reference, without listing it in the Sources section. It certainly must be "Fisher, Margery and James (1957). Shackleton", but I can't tell which edition from which publisher it is. Can anyone verify? Dhaga Cotowahrou (talk) 08:06, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have added details of the book. Brianboulton (talk) 15:06, 6 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

When did the Heroic Age end?

I have removed from the lead the assertion that the Heroic Age ended in February 1917 with the rescue of the Ross Sea party survivors, as this contradicts the list of expeditions within the article and is at odds with the End of the Heroic Age section. The singular view ascribed in the lead to Aant Elzinga, that the Heroic Age lasted until 1945, differs from every other historical source that I've read; I don't have access to this source, and I'd like to know what Elzinga actually said, but I don't think that such a minority view should be highlighted in the lead. I have therefore converted this information into a footnote.

I have also removed from the lead the musing paragraph on the poetical aspects of the Heroic Age, including a long quotation from one of Shackleton's verses. This information may be of some interest, but is largely unsourced and is hardly encyclopedic. It certainly has no place in the article's lead, the function of which is to summarise the main points of the article.

I've also removed an irrelevant note relating to Peary and the North Pole controversy - nothing to do with this article. Brianboulton (talk) 15:06, 6 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Citation 15: re beginning of Heroic age

At some point during the article's long post-featured history, this note has been added: "Some histories consider the Discovery expedition, which departed in 1901, as the first proper expedition of the Heroic Age". This is cited to an article entitled "Mountaineering and Polar Collections", published by the National Library of Scotland; the article begins with the unsupported assertion: "The first expedition in what came to be known as the 'Heroic Age' of Antarctic exploration was the British National Antarctic Expedition (1901-1904) led by Robert Falcon Scott". This reads like the writer's view, rather than the considered view of historians, and is not supported by the facts. Nor does it justify the reference to "Some histories..."

The two expeditions that preceded Discovery shared the impetus that drove all early expeditions of this era – the challenge issued by Murray at the RGS in 1893 to resume Antarctic exploration. Some moved ahead and organised themselves more quickly than others. The first out of the blocks was the Belgian expedition led by de Gerlache – not particularly successful objectively, but important nevertheless. It was the first overwintering in the region by any expedition, and the first to assemble a whole year's readings of meterological and magnetic data. Furthermore, it provided a baptism for one who would become perhaps the greatest name in all polar exploration: Roald Amundsen.

The second expedition, with Borchgrevink's Southern Cross, was more significant and more important. It reopened the gateway to the south which Scott and Shackleton would later exploit. Borchgrevink made the first landing on the Barrier; he travelled on it, and set up a new Farthest South record. Beyond that, he set up the first winter base on the Antarctic mainland, at Cape Adare, and spent an entire winter there – the huts are still standing. Sadly, for political/nationalistic reasons, Borchgrevink's achievements were disparaged by the British RGS establishment: he wasn't Navy, he had a funny name, his expedition, styled at his sponsor's insistence as "British", was staffed largely by Scandinavians (and what would they know about ice and snow?). In truth, Borchgrevink was as much a pioneer as anyone, including Scott, Shackleton and Amundsen, who all followed in his footsteps. To ignore his expedition in the context of the Heroic Age is, frankly ridiculous.

I propose to remove the note and source from the article, as misleading and contrary to all the evidence. A couple of years ago (see above) I raised a similar concern about a note including the extraordinary suggestion that the Heroic Age extended into the 1940s. This is a rogue opinion, equally misleading, and I propose to delete that, too. I'll stay my hand for a short while, though, in case anyone wishes to proffer an alternative, informed view on these matters.

Brianboulton (talk) 16:19, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Curtailing?

The Origins section says that James Cook "curtailed" the Age of Exploration by travelling to the southernmost part of the globe. Google defines curtail as "reduce in extent or quantity; impose a restriction on", and I don't see how that works in the sentence. Can anybody tell what was intended by starting the sentence thus so that it can be amended?DylPickle666 (talk) 01:47, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]