Talk:Here We Go Round the Mulberry Bush

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Songs

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Songs, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of songs on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SongsWikipedia:WikiProject SongsTemplate:WikiProject Songssong articles

Split from film

The articles now are split. JoergenB 09:32, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Since most of my comments concerned the song, not the film, I move them from Talk:Here We Go Round the Mulberry Bush (film) to this page: JoergenB 10:50, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Article move, split, redirection?

Right now, this article is about two separate items: (Originally) a film, and (as an afterthought) a song. I do not think this is a good idea. (Incidently, I found the article by means of an interwiki link about the song.)

The song is the older item in this case. The novel was written with a title the author thought all would recognise; and there are several references around, of the type "To the tune of 'Here we go round the mulberry bush'". (That includes a couple of references to this article!) Personally, I've heard about the song, but not the movie; but I'm a Swede and have some interests in folklore, whence I might not be representative. However, if indeed the song, game, or nursery rhyme indeed is more well-known than the film, or they are more or less equally well-known, I'd recommend the song article to retain the main name. In either case, the articles should be split; but the precise manner should preferrably be done by people knowing which item our readers are most likely to search for under this name.

Please, also note that there are several books with this title; not only Hunter Davies's; vide infra!JoergenB 17:02, 26 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Since I have got no reaction (and this hopefully means that there are no complaints against my suggestion of a page split), I now have made a formal request for a split. In addition two the song article and the film article, of course one could make a disambiguation page; but I suggest not, as long as there are not various articles for the books with the title HWGRTM. JoergenB 19:23, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

On the origin of the song

Right now, the text contains the following claim (and protest):

The song derives from prisoners at HMP Wakefield being sent to walk round a Mulberry Bush.{{Fact|date=May 2007}}

This is a statement I doubt, to put it mildly. It is more or less quoted from our article Wakefield, where this is stated as a fact. There a reference is given to a subpage of the official Wakefield webpage, with information and perhaps a touch of advertising. However, this source does not at all go as far as to claim this to be correct; what they write is (my boldface):

This well-known children's nursery rhyme may have begun life as a song or chant by inmates of Wakefield prison as they exercised around a mulberry bush within the prison grounds.

This is speculative, but clearly not just their own speculation; there is an indirect reference to a book about the history of the prison, with a suggestive title:

Duncan, R.S.: 'Here we go round the mulberry bush' The House of Correction 1595 / HM Prison Wakefield 1995 (published by author 1994)

According to the reference, seemingly, at that time Duncan was prison governor, and wrote the book to commemorate an anniversary. This means that Duncan probably isn't a folklorist in the first place, and might not have checked up the existence of parallels in other languages. Indeed, similar songs and an associated game is found in Danish, Norwegian (cf. no:Så går vi rundt om en enebærbusk), and Swedish; and according to the Norwegian article also in Belgium and the Netherlands. In the Scandinavian variants, "the mulberry bush" is replaced by "a juniper bush" - or vice versa, depending on which language group version of the song and game is the older.

I may do an injustice to Mr./Ms. Duncan, who might be well versed in folklore studies and/or may have quoted other and more professional books. I suspect that it might be a bit hard to find the book outside Wakefield and its vicinity, though. However, it would be nice, if some wikipedian is able to find a copy and to decide whether this is just a speculative idea yielding a nice book title, or has some substance. Pending this, I think that we should mention this as as "a suggestion" and nothing more.

Anyhow, the wakefield interest produced a nice link to the full text (which really is very close to the song I and a million other Swedes know from childhood, and often sing at Christmas time).JoergenB 17:02, 26 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My understanding is that the origin of the rhyme is the murder of the Saint Thomas a Beckett at Canterbury.The assassins chasing him around the mulberry bush! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Intalok (talk • contribs) 10:07, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That is a new one on me and seems pretty unlikely, but we could include a reference to it as a suggested origin if you can find a reliable source.--SabreBD (talk) 11:46, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Found it! See http://www.britannia.com/history/docs/becket2gerv.html my first contribution to wiki ! Intalok (talk) 01:10, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry to say that using just this will constitute original research. What I had in mind was a reliable secondary source that advanced the theory.--SabreBD (talk) 19:12, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi again, I've been digging around. I found a reference in a parish magazine referring to a talk at Ulcombe History Society (see page 20 of http://www.boughtonmalherbepc.kentparishes.gov.uk/userfiles/File/MMMay2006issue.pdf) Quote "On Tuesday 16 May (2006) Dr Reuthen will be talking about the History of Nursery Rhymes...and Here we go round the mulberry bush relates to the murder of Thomas a Becket..." . sorry not to be more definite, can anyone else help? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Intalok (talk • contribs) 01:21, 10 May 2011 (UTC) Intalok (talk) 15:28, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Tune comparison

The article says:

The tune is similar to that of the Christmas carol I Saw Three Ships.

Compare the tunes. They don't appear to have much in common:

Mulberry Bush:

F-F-F-F-A

C-C-A-F-F

G-G-G-G-F

E-E-D-C

F-F-F-F-A

C-C-A-F-F

G-G-C-D-E

F-F

I Saw Three Ships:

D, G-G-A-B, D-B-A-C, B-G-G-B, A-F♯-D-D, G-G-A-B, D-B-A-C, B-G-G-A-B, A-G

Checking the tunes, lining up the notes:

The only point where they're the same notes are the 3rd and 4th beats of the third measure (putting the tunes in regular 6/8 time, not counting the pickup note D at the beginning of I Saw Three Ships), and this is G.
The G functions in 2 different ways. In The Mulberry Bush it is the second note in the key of F major and in I Saw Three Ships it is the first note in the key of G major.

Georgia guy (talk) 22:48, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I found the actual tune on kididdles.com, here. Angie Y. (talk) 20:34, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You know, since "Mulberry Bush" is in F and "I Saw Three Ships" is in G, if you transposed it into the same key it would be a lot easier to spot the similarity. 2.25.135.200 (talk) 22:27, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Other verses

Where are they? 2.25.135.200 (talk) 22:23, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A list of verses would encourage people to add more and more possible verses until the page became really untidy and unbearable to read. The article explains the nature of the song, so only the most famous verse is really needed. Orphan Wiki 17:09, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree that specific set of verses is the most famous, at least not in North America. The verses most American children learned had to do with homemaking skills, not personal grooming. You can view those lyrics here. http://www.enchantedlearning.com/rhymes/Mulberry.shtml and here http://bussongs.com/songs/here-we-go-round-the-mulberry-bush.php — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.78.90.98 (talk) 15:56, 16 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Additional citations

Why and where does this article need additional citations for verification? What references does it need and how should they be added? Hyacinth (talk) 10:57, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You have just seen what Wikipedians call "drive-by tagging", throwing a tag on an article without trying to improve it and barely looking at it. It's got some uncited stuff, but they're generally noted "citation needed" already. I'm deleting that tag. D O N D E groovily Talk to me 16:41, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This was not a drive-by. When the refimprove tag added, nothing was marked "citation needed". - SummerPhD (talk) 17:06, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Unsourced content

I've removed the following section, which has no references:

The Merry-Go-Round
[edit]

The Merry-Go-Round is a song with the same tune as "Here We Go Round the Mulberry Bush", but some notes are removed. The song tells the story of several children on a merry-go-round that—in a sadistic twist—collapses because so many children are riding it. The circle game that accompanies it is similar to the one for Ring Around the Rosie, as described below.

The merry-go-round goes 'round and 'round,
The children laughed and laughed and laughed,
So many were going 'round and 'round,
That the merry-go-round collapsed.

The verse is usually repeated a second time.
The circle singing game that accompanies these verses also changes by region, but the most common form consists of participants standing in a circle and holding hands, followed by skipping in one direction as they sing the tune that accompanies these verses. As the word collapsed in the second verse is sung, the group usually falls down into a heap.

~dom Kaos~ (talk) 18:15, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Theresa Fry

Plays the young girl who believes Barry Evans is her “daddy” 80.4.49.163 (talk) 04:07, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]