Talk:Herb Dell

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Bruxton talk 16:38, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

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• ... that Herb Dell served as a National Football League official at the same time he was a head coach? Source: Head coach in 1922 Referee in 1922
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Jug Bennett (5/7)

5x expanded by BeanieFan11 (talk). Self-nominated at 21:51, 7 August 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Herb Dell; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• Or a shorter version – ALT1: ... that Herb Dell was a National Football League official and head coach at the same time? BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:10, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook eligibility:

• Cited:
• Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: His being official at the same time is sourced to a primary source database. As it's an exceptional claim that he'd be in a conflict of interest position, it should have a secondary source, vetted by an author, which confirms that he was an official and coach in the same league at the same time. —Bagumba (talk) 11:42, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

• I've always found Pro Football Archives a reliable and accurate source, but if you need a non-database reference I'll need awhile to find it (I may contact them to see which games he officiated and if that doesn't work, I may have to go digging through all the game recaps of the season - but I had planned on doing that anyway in a month or two for another project). Is that alright, @Bagumba:? BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:02, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

  I'm ok to wait (I'll leave it to others if there are DYK restrictions on the length of that wait).—Bagumba (talk) 18:57, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

@BeanieFan11: What's the status of your search? Is this ready for a re-review? Z1720 (talk) 14:44, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

@Z1720 and Bagumba: OK, so I haven't had much time to do the research, but I contacted PFA and they gave me a list of every game they were able to verify he officiated. There were no games from 1922, so I don't see why list him as having officiated during that year, but I still think a few other good ALT hooks could be developed by changing the wording. E.g. "... that after having been an official for Columbus Panhandles NFL games, Herb Dell served as their head coach?" Thoughts? BeanieFan11 (talk) 03:02, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

@Bagumba: Does this satisfy your concerns? Z1720 (talk) 19:44, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Not sure if Bagumba is coming back, so this will need a new reviewer. If Bagumba comes back they can resume where they left off. Z1720 (talk) 15:42, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

@BeanieFan11: Go ahead and make a formal hook proposal. I might suggest using officiated for "been an official for". The fact that the Columbus owner was also his friend might be interesting to somehow squeeze in, if possible.—Bagumba (talk) 07:13, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Bagumba: ALTs:

ALT2 ... that after having been an official for Columbus Panhandles NFL games, Herb Dell served as their head coach?

ALT3 ... that Herb Dell officiated NFL games for a team coached by his friend?

ALT4 ... that Herb Dell officiated NFL games for a team coached by his friend and also served as their head coach himself for a time?

ALT5 ... that after having officiated games for the Columbus Panhandles NFL team, Herb Dell served as their head coach?

Mainly different wording styles - open to any other ideas. Of the hooks, I think I like ALT4 best. BeanieFan11 (talk) 20:06, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@BeanieFan11: Modifying ALT5's end to something like "...Herb Dell was hired by his friend, team owner Joseph Carr, to be their head coach?" would add the question of nepotism (making an official a coach) to the hook, while still maintaining whether there was conflict of interest that he was previously allowed to officiate their games. Similarly, ALT4 can also be tweaked to "for a team coachedowned by his friend".—Bagumba (talk) 21:45, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

ALT4a ... that Herb Dell officiated NFL games for a team owned by his friend and also served as their head coach himself for a time?

ALT5a ... that after having officiated games for the Columbus Panhandles NFL team, Herb Dell was hired by his friend, team owner Joseph Carr, to be their head coach?

@BeanieFan11: What are your thoughts on ALT4a and ALT5a, which are based on Bagumba's suggestions? Z1720 (talk) 18:35, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

@Bagumba and Z1720: Either works, but I like ALT4a better, though maybe change it to ALT4b: ... that Herb Dell officiated NFL games for a team owned by his friend and also served as their head coach for a time? BeanieFan11 (talk) 20:14, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

@BeanieFan11: For 4b, I'm not a grammar expert, but the hook as written seems unclear whether "and also served as their head coach for a time" applies to Dell or his friend. Of course, it should be Dell. Maybe just needs a comma before "and", or even adding "he" (e.g. "... , and he also served...")?—Bagumba (talk) 09:44, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

@Bagumba: Maybe better would be: ALT6a: ... that Herb Dell served as both an official and the head coach for an NFL team owned by his friend? / ALT6b ... that Herb Dell served as both an official and the head coach for a National Football League team owned by his friend? BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:57, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

@BeanieFan11: It should be "game official" as opposed to holding an office with the team. However, the hooks incorrectly reads like game officials are employed by the team, but really they are only working games that involve the team. Is 5a acceptable?—Bagumba (talk) 13:20, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

@Bagumba: Sorry to keep dragging this out its just I think this is a really interesting topic and I want to maximize the potential DYK views - I'd guess be fine with 5a but usually when there's a bunch of links like that there aren't as many views; what about ALT7a: ... that Herb Dell both refereed games and served as the head coach for a National Football League team owned by his friend? / ALT7b ... that Herb Dell both refereed games and served as the head coach for an NFL team owned by his friend? BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:49, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

@BeanieFan11: No worries. We're both trying to get this right. My main problem now is that "Dell both refereed games...for a National Football League team owned by his his friend" is incorrect. He presumably didn't work "for" the team, but worked independently for the league. We can say that "he refereed Columbus games", but not "for Columbus". Many of the earlier hooks also incorrectly use this "for" wording. Sorry for only flagging this now.—Bagumba (talk) 01:19, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

BeanieFan11, Bagumba, this nomination is now over three and a half months old. It's time to push to get this finished. If it hasn't been approved by, say, December 7—four full months after it was nominated—there is a strong chance it will be marked for closure. Thank you for giving this extra attention over the next nine-plus days. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:50, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

@Bagumba: Alright now, I'm just going to propose a ton of alts with different wordings and you let me know which ones work or any changes that can be made to make them work:

ALT8 ... that Herb Dell officiated NFL games of a team he also served as head coach for and was owned by his friend?

ALT9 ... that Herb Dell served as both an official and head coach in the NFL? / ALT9b ... that Herb Dell served as both an official and head coach in the National Football League?

ALT10 ... that NFL head coach Herb Dell also officiated games of the team he coached?

ALT11 ... that Herb Dell officiated games of and was head coach for an NFL team owned by his friend?

ALT12 ... that Herb Dell was friends with the owner of an NFL team he officiated the games of?

ALT13 ... that Herb Dell was friends with the owner of an NFL team he officiated the games of and served as head coach for?

ALT14 ... that Herb Dell officiated the games of and was head coach for the Columbus Panhandles NFL team owned by his friend?

Any of these good? BeanieFan11 (talk) 04:00, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Approve ALT13, as it has twist of being offical and coach (ambiguous in hook if same time or not). Copyediting, if needed, can continue durring queue prep. Alternatively, fall back to ALT10 if simpler wording is needed—Bagumba (talk) 05:15, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for saying this but ALT13 is clumsy. We can put it together like this:

• ALT13 ... that NFL referee Herb Dell officiated the games of his friend who coached and owned the Columbus Panhandles, and he later served as head coach for that team?

@Bagumba and BeanieFan11: I know you both have been workshopping the hook for a while. How does this rearrange of the hook look? Bruxton (talk) 16:05, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

@Bruxton: My goal with all this workshopping was to come up with a hook that mentions, most importantly, that was officiated the games of an NFL team that he coached, with importance also placed on including that his friend owned the team as well; I've been trying to avoid mentioning the Panhandles as then I feel it would get less views (I, seeing it as a casual reader, would probably think "oh he was just one of those guys in the less-organized 1920s - that makes sense and isn't as interesting if he were doing it nowadays") – without mentioning the Panhandles the hook makes it unclear what time period he was from exactly, which makes it more interesting IMO. If we can't fit the three different things (coached, officiated, friends with owner) in the hook without mentioning the Panhandles, then I'd just prefer ALT10. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:24, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

@BeanieFan11: thank you for the response/rationale. I too like ALT0. I was unsure why it was passed over. Bruxton (talk) 16:37, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

@Bruxton: I said ALT10 rather than ALT0; there were issues pointed out with that one above. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:46, 8 December 2023 (UTC)