Talk:Henry Percy, 5th Earl of Northumberland

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Burke's Peerage

From my talk page:

This article is completely off. First off the person who did the page used the Tudor Place as a source. In the peerage site by Darryl Lundy the 5th Earl is listed as the 4th Earl. I have noticed this quite frequently with people who use The Tudor Place as a source. That page is off by a number sometimes. Henry Algernon Percy, 5th Earl of Northumberland KG (13 January 1477 – 19 May 1527) - the source Charles Mosley, editor, Burke's Peerage, Baronetage & Knightage, 107th edition, 3 volumes states that he is the 4th Earl clearly. Since I'm new to wiki, how does one change this and change the name of the page? The whole article is a mess and therefore that would mean that people would have to redo the numbering or are we not going by new creations, etc.? I think what is happening is that people are not counting the extinct title and just continue on numbering, etc because technically the numbering should start over if the title is re-created which is what happens on the peerage page. Lady Meg (talk) 03:15, 28 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There are different ways in which we can handle this. The first obvious question is what is wrong with the information of the Wikipedia articles 4th and 6th earls? -- PBS (talk) 04:13, 28 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

These articles from EB1911 Percy (Family) and Earls and dukes of Northumberland may help confirm dates etc (I'll look up the links to the s:Wikisource versions later). Likewise Wikipedia:WikiProject Missing encyclopedic articles/DNB Epitome section 44 should help. -- PBS (talk) 05:30, 28 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The entry in the DNB IE is:

Sir Henry (Algernon) Percy, fifth Earl of Northumberland(1478-1527), eldest son of Sir Henry Percy, fourth earl of Northumberland; K.B., 1481; fought against the Cornish rebels at Blackheath, 1497; appointed warden-general of the eastern marches, 1503; served in France (1513) with a great retinue; member of the council of the north, 1522.

A fax copy of this can be found here it says the full version of the article can be found in volume xliv (44) page 414. Which on wikisource if proofred would be indexed here but all is not lost there is a non proofread version starting here. After looking at this article AFAICT it seems to be about the same man as the DNB refers to. -- PBS (talk) 05:48, 28 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, well here is what I was talking about on Darryl Lundy's page. Peerage.com This is why I was confused as to how the numbering was figured out -- because I'm not sure how that goes after a title has been extinct or forfeited. Is the next person who is kin to the same family when it is restored just continue the successive numbers or do they start over at 1st Earl, etc. Because on his father's page on this site it states "Henry Percy, 3rd Earl of Northumberland gained the title of 3rd Earl of Northumberland in 1461." which is from Alison Weir's book Britain's Royal Family: A Complete Genealogy. The added notes at the bottom, is there a way to make that look better and then to just list the references? I noticed that on the Tudor Place that it does list the source for the 5th Earl of Northumberland as coming from the Complete Peerage, but I don't like using that page as a source now as I found many discrepancies lately. Can we trust this site on this issue? I may try to fix the page, but if I do it wrong will someone please let me know? -- Lady Meg (talk) 05:20, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think continuing numbering and ignoring the forfeitures/recreations in the Percy family makes the most sense. Otherwise you're stuck with two people called "Henry Percy, 1st Earl of Northumberland". I don't understand why "Algernon" is omitted from this article title, though. Middle names were deeply uncommon in the 15th century, and including it makes it clearly who is meant. john k (talk) 06:05, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The numbering does agree with that in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, by the way. Earl of Northumberland gives the numbering used, which is in accordance with the ODNB. The key event is the regranting of 1416; it was a "new creation" for political reasons. I think we are on safe ground following an authoritative reference like the ODNB, even if there are other opinions. It might be appropriate to annotate Earl of Northumberland with your reference. Charles Matthews (talk) 15:42, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Feferences section

The References section is an absolute mess. It needs to be cleaned up ASAP.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:35, 28 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Done. -- PBS (talk) 12:23, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Early Life

Problems with the 31 January 2011 revision, namely the first paragraph of the Biography section which states:

"Henry Algernon Percy was well looked after and brought up at the court of Henry VIII, while his sisters' marriages were the object of careful negotiation. He was made K.B. 21 November 1481, at the time when Prince Arthur was created Prince of Wales."

"Henry Algernon Percy was well looked after and brought up at the court of Henry VIII..."

Probably meant to say: "brought up at the court of Henry VII." (Percy was aged 32 when Henry VIII ascended the throne in 1509.)

Yes the sourece says "He was well looked after and brought up at the court, while his sisters' marriages were the object of careful negotiation. He was made K.B. 21 Nov. 1481, at the time when Prince Arthur was created Prince of Wales." My mistake it should be VII not VIII. -- PBS (talk) 09:26, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As extra information, it might be added that Percy's father, the 4th Earl, was killed by anti-tax rioters when the son was aged 12 - to explain why the son was brought up in the court (and well looked after).

If it can be sourced (see the ODNB below) but AFAICT after a quick scan The DNB article does not mention that detail ... -- PBS (talk) 09:26, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"He was made K.B. 21 November 1481...", with K.B. linking to "Order of the Bath"

This replaced the sentence: "Edward IV of England made him a Knight Bachelor in 1481."

- Was he made a Knight Bachelor, or a Knight of the Bath? Whichever, let's not call it "KB".

The quote is above what do you think? -- PBS (talk) 09:26, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Order of the Bath" states that the Order was founded (not revived) in 1795, although prior to this one could be a Knight of the Bath or a Knight Bachelor (two distinct honours, not two names for the same honour).

- Was he made a KB (whichever) by Edward IV?

It is useful to state which king made him KB, given the frequent regime change occurring around this time (3 usurpations in the period 1471 to 1485).

"He was made K.B. 21 November 1481 ... at the time when Prince Arthur was created Prince of Wales."

But Prince Arthur wasn't born until 1486 (2 usurpations later).

Webrobate (talk) 07:33, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Knight of the Bath links to Order of the Bath. I guessed it was "Knight of the Bath" as knt. is usually used for Knight Bachelor but it is a guess (see text above). So checking in the ODBN:

Northumberland succeeded his father aged eleven when the latter was murdered at Cocklodge, near Thirsk, on 28 April 1489. The young earl was made a knight of the Bath on 21 November 1489 and a knight of the Garter in 1495. He received livery of his estates in 1498.

1491 is a typo in the DNB which is corrected to 1498 (the year of the birth of Prince Arthur ) Which solves both the order of knighthood and the date it was bestowed. Well spotted please make the change to the date and please add the info on his father if you want to. -- PBS (talk) 09:26, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Henry Howard Earl of Surrey

In the next to last paragraph under Biography, after saying Henry Percy refused the Wardenship of all the marches toward Scotland in 1523, the next sentence says he continued active while Henry Howard Earl of Surrey was in command. This Henry Howard was only born in 1517 and thus was still a child in 1523. Very likely the Earl of Surrey in question here should be Thomas Howard (1473-1554) who was Earl of Surrey until his own father died in May 1524 and Thomas became 3rd Duke of Norfolk. I've seen many people who talk Tudor history who get the Earls of Surrey confused. Can someone verify my facts before we edit this? Which Howard was Warden of the marches toward Scotland in the mid 1520s? History Lunatic (talk) 06:52, 17 November 2012 (UTC)History Lunatic[reply]