Talk:Heather

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Plants

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Proposed move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move. JPG-GR (talk) 06:30, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest that this page (currently Heather (disambiguation) is moved to Heather. I have recently changed the Heather page from a redirect to Calluna to a redirect here, as "heather" is just as correctly applied to many other species, and so its use for Calluna vulgaris is not a dominant usage. This leaves Heather as essentially unoccupied, and so removes the need for "disambiguation" on the name of the dab. I have entered this proposal on WP:Requested moves. Richard New Forest (talk) 14:35, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Heather is primarily used to mean Calluna. It even says this at Erica. 128.232.1.193 (talk) 16:21, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, I don't agree, not here in the UK at any rate. It is true that "heather" most often means Calluna if it is used only as a single word to mean a single species. However, it is very often not used like that. A number of Erica species have "heather" in their name – bell heather Erica cinerea cannot be called "heath", and tree heather and many other species can be either.

More importantly, "heather" is used whenever a general term is required rather than talking about an individual species (and "heath" is never used like that). The Ericaceae family is usually called the "heather family". "Heather" is the general term used by non-botanists for all similar plants: when they say "walking through the heather" they surely don't only mean Calluna! Finally it is used by botanists, ecologists and gardeners for unspecified small-leaved ericaceous plants in general – for example heathland might be said to be dominated by various heathers, or a garden might be a heather garden – "heath" would surely never be used in those senses. If I said to another ecologist that my cattle often eat heather, their first question would be "which species?" (though actually on the whole they do prefer Calluna to Erica...).

The OED has an interesting article about Heather – historically "heather", "ling" and "heath" were each used in Scotland, northern England and southern England respectively, each for all the species occurring locally. I also wonder if there is an American/UK split here? Is it in America that "heather" tends to be restricted more to Calluna? Richard New Forest (talk) 20:13, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the opposing editor above appears to using an IP registered to Cambridge University, so I wouldn't say it's a US/UK thing, at least not in this case. From my experience (as a Cumbrian), I have heard Heather referring almost exclusively to Calluna, as far as plants go. Regardless, I don't have an opinion on the location of this page, or the target of the redirect. Dreaded Walrus ^{t c} 20:47, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Let them speak for themselves – plenty of Americans at Cambridge... Richard New Forest (talk) 09:43, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, thanks for the explanation, Richard. I can see where you are coming from. My concise OED says "heather. n. A purple-flowered heath typical of moorland and heathland. [Calluna vulagris.] > informal: any plant of this family (Ericaceae); a heath." I understand this to mean that "heather" normally means Calluna. PS: I am British, but I admit I am not studying botany at Cambridge! 128.232.1.193 (talk) 12:57, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Heather should point at a plant, on the principle of least surprise, and the obvious one is Calluna vulgaris --Rumping (talk) 02:19, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not quite clear... Why should it point to a particular plant species? Surely only if that was the main use? What other term could be used for all heathers? Richard New Forest (talk) 09:43, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Possible alternative: a sentence explaining the word "heather" in the intro paragraph of the Calluna page. What do others think? 128.232.1.193 (talk) 12:57, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I did not check before since this one appears to be so obvious. To say that the plant is the primary use and that redirecting to Calluna would not uprise a large number of editors is questionable. Heather is a rather common name. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:53, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm. That was not the argument put forward in the proposal. Surely everybody knows that the name derives from the plant. According to the stats tool, hardly anyone looks at Heather (name), compared to Heather. 128.232.1.193 (talk) 19:14, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The stats tool results are obviously misleading; most people who use Wikipedia are unfamiliar with how we name things; someone searching for a person named heather either already knows their last name (heather locklear, heather graham, etc.) or will simply type in "heather", and get the article about the plant. Stats tools should rarely be used to justify moving or keeping an article where it is, especially if it's concerning the undisambiguated location. Parsecboy (talk) 15:06, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to try come to a consensus if possible. We have two people who have opposed the suggestion, and I have responded to each. One (IP 128.232.1.193) has said "I see where you are coming from", but I'm not clear whether that is now "support" or still "oppose". The other has not responded to my point.

It seems to me that to keep the name as it is, my point above to each must be satisfactorily answered: if "heather" does indeed primarily refer to Calluna, why is the word also used for all heathers generally? I'm perfectly prepared to be persuaded on the point, but no counter-arguments have yet been offered, and so as far as I can see my argument still stands. Richard New Forest (talk) 18:30, 5 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Richard, sorry if I was not clear. I am still opposed to the move. My concise OED tells me that "heather" primarily and officially refers to Calluna. My understanding is that some people now casually use the word "heather" for other Calluna-like plants. Perhaps they should formally say "I was walking through heather and related plants", but that is more of a mouthful than the sentence you wrote!

I can't speak for Rumping, but I think his/her complaint was as follows: suppose that when someone types "Heather" into the google, they end up at Heather (disambiguation); then, they probably don't know that "Heather" primarily means "Calluna", and so they are lost.

If the page is moved, the disambiguation page should be clarified. If it is not moved, perhaps this page can be clarified, to include a sentence about the meaning of "heather".

Finally: the other supporter, Vegaswikian, is supporting the move on different grounds. I am not sure about these grounds, as I mentioned above. 128.232.1.193 (talk) 17:14, 6 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well Heather is a very common name so for a large population it is clearly the primary use. Most of these readers would not even think of a plant. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:40, 6 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support per my reasoning above; it doesn't seem that the plant is the primary topic, there are plenty of other meanings for "heather", so the dab page should get the undabbed location. Parsecboy (talk) 15:06, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I don't think I was blindly using the stats tool. My point was Heather (name) is not a primary candidate, and for three reasons: (a) the article doesn't say much, and indeed there's not much to say about the name; (b) not many people ever actually look at the article (by stats tool); (c) the name is derived from the plant. June is also a common name, but that is not primary usage either. For me, Calluna very clearly satisfies the test for primary topic: when I think of "heather", I resolutely think of the plant — not "Heather Graham", or the village, or the unpublished song, or the fabric. Am I abnormal? 128.232.1.193 (talk) 16:35, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't assert that you're using the stats tool blindly; I just think the results should be taken with a grain of salt. I'm not arguing that Heather (name) should be located here, I think the dab page should be. The argument that the name is derived from the plant isn't valid, or else we'd have the article Boston be about a town of 55,000, not the city of over 600,000. What you or I think of when we hear "heather" isn't really relevant either; we need to follow common usage, and when one topic cannot be proved to be primary, the dab page needs to go to the undisambiguated page. Parsecboy (talk) 03:39, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still puzzled by why you only think of the single plant species. What word would you use for heathers generally? Richard New Forest (talk) 19:19, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support. The term heather is clearly ambiguous. No incontestable evidence has been given that among the many plant species known as heather that Calluna is the primary meaning. Wikistats should NEVER be the sole basis for justifying primary topic status. Results from wikistats should only be regarded as indicative and never as definitive. older ≠ wiser 14:13, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Text me at moonkeith152@gmail.com As i am Professor of Botany and Mycology — Preceding unsigned comment added by KeithMoon152 (talk • contribs) 03:39, 31 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Various heather plants

User Fortdj33 has tried to remove all heather plants other than Calluna. I have reinstated them for the moment.

This is exactly the situation that dab pages are for. There are several plant species and genera which can have the common name "heather", not to mention the heather family itself. The dab allows users to decide which of these they are looking for. I think a quick look at many of the arguments in the move discussion above ought to make this clear. Otherwise where would one find, for example, "purple heather", "bell heather" or "heather family" without already knowing their exact proper names?

As for the section headings, yes, maybe this dab is a bit short for sections, though I don't think they hurt. Don't mind either way on that. Richard New Forest (talk) 20:07, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Following comment copied from User talk:Richard New Forest, posted while the above was being written:

Hello. My reasons for modifying the Heather disambiguation page, is to bring it more in line with the MOS:DAB guidelines, before the pages that link to it are fixed. I understand that the term "heather" does not ONLY refer to Calluna vulgaris, but it would be more constructive for you to better reflect that by editing the intro of the page, rather that simply reverting my edits. The section titles are cluttered, and not suited for a disambiguation page with only 11 links on it. Fortdj33 (talk) 19:54, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Very surprised indeed to see further reversion while discussion under way. Please restore material until discussion complete. Richard New Forest (talk) 20:15, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]