Talk:Havarti

Sources

I'm finding in other sources that Havarti has a washed or dry rind, and yet this article says it's rindless?

I sorry to tell you all that much what ist said about cheese in the Wikipedia does not match with reality. it seems like there has been no real expert on cheese contributing. hte autorhs have quoted old cheese book whew the fact5 are far from up-to-date.

But making improvements and corrections is simply not possible, because of the Wikipedia bureocresy, the very strict rulles, that nbowq are the enemy of truth.

The cold fact is that e.g. Arla Hawarti, despite the attribut Heritage, has nothing to do with the original Hawarti, which still you still can buy under the brand "Elbodal".

Havarti should like the German Tilster have a washed rind with slime producing bacteria, ripening the cheese from the surface. Beforee the schee is marketed, hte surface can be cleandede nad dired and waxed; the enzymes from growth on the rind (Bacterium linens) have given teh curd a typical strong falvour and will still ripen the cheese, but at a slower rate.

The Arla havarti is cured in plastic from the very beginning and is as much a Hawarti as plain white wine wine is real Champagne.

Please read and consider the following

Dear friends,

i have many time been grateful to Wikipedia, when quickly needing information on many topics.

But regarding cheese, I find Wikipedia a disaster! The problem is, that the names of cheese nowadays do not mean the same as in former days. Many cheese producers have “rationalized” the manufacturing processes, which in its turn has had a severe impact on the properties of the cheese.

Classically you can group cured cheeses made with the aid of rennet according to the

- milk source . fat content (i.e fat in percentage of the dry matter) - firmness (a funtion of the water ocntect in the fat free part of the cheese) - method of curing (from hte innner by natural or added lactobacteria and or propionic bacteria; from the inner and from the surface with smear bacteria or molds; blue weined cheese cured with Penicillium roqueforti) - texture (blind, irregular eyes, small eyes, big eyes)

Every manufacturer may produce cheese wich differs from other “brands” due to the quality of the milk, the used cultures, the cheesemaster skill and existing equipment. Anyhow, if you use a known tradfitional name, the cheese should, in my opinion, comply with the characteristcs of the cheeses mentioned above.

Unfortunately cheeses, which originally were made with ripening cultures on the rind are nowadays by many dairies manufactured rindless. The danes were among the first to abandon the traditions in favour of commercial interest. They called the cheese as before, but they make it in a mor economic way, no matter how it affects the taste etc. So htey started producing rindless Havarti parrallelly to smear ripened Havarti. Like making sparkling wine without bubbles!

So when the consumer today buys a cheese under the name of eg. Tilsiter, Havarti (Danish Tilsiter) or Port Salut, he can get either the original version or the modern “variety”, which has very little in common with the authentic cheese qualitylity. And Codex alimentarius approves of this misuse of cheese names, after big cheese manufacturers have lobbed efficiently.

- - - -

So how should Wikipedia now act? I my opinion nearly all articles on cheese should be revized. The articles I have read - in English, German and Swedish - do unfortunately not pay enough attention to the traditional classification of cheese, nor to the confusing situation of to-day, when the same cheese name is used for product made and cured in entirely different manners. They mostly refer to old books on cheeses, the authors of which have not been aware of the changes and trends.

An when I have tried to improve the articles, my corrections and additions have been removed, because I could not refer to any printed source. Of course not, because no litterature is up-to-date! And the product standards of big manufacturers, although open to everybody on the web, and the advertisments in papers are for some reasons not considered trustworthy by the Wikipedia team .

Do I have to publish a book, before the Wiki-team can accept what can obviously be seen in every Super-market?

Best regards,

Jan-Erik Ingvall

Dairy enigneer, University of Helsinki, Product and quality manager in the cheese sector since 1975.

2001:14BA:8300:0:0:0:1:89BA (talk) 21:26, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Vandalism

ummmm "Havarti, along with being nutritious, is also a good food for possums, as discovered recently by Saul Winer.Possums, a very rare species are really.......AWESOME! Havarti is a cheese, made of possum milk." this sounds like a joke, but i'm not 100% so i won't remove it. but someone should look into it Iamnobody2 10:26, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Notes

Stuff I didn't add: 1. Context controversy section: the US anger over the PGI registration of the Danish cheese Danbo in 2017; 2. Likely no coincidence PGI status was awarded after the USA went ahead with sanctioning European cheeses for former airplane manufacturing subsidies (albeit despite having employed similar subsidies) in October 2019. Speculation on my part, no sources. 3. Global CCFN efforts to hamper EU FTAs in South America, Mexico, Vietnam, Hong Kong, Taiwan, China, Australia, New Zealand, Russia and South Africa by lobbying for commitments to pre-register EU PGI terms such as "havarti" as generics. Too specific maybe? Have a few sources. 4. Letter to Trump by CCFN demanding sanctions on the EU regarding havarti policies; 5. US rebuke of EU policies protecting IP in Special 301 Intellectual Property Report April 2019, demanding EU overturn existing EU PGI product IP protections as protectionist NTTBs, claiming traditional products cannot be protected as IP. Not specific enough, but note timing. 6. Falling production in Denmark and increasing production/market share to US producers. Not enough info. How does Arla Foods moving production to USA fit in with this? 7. Danish producers hope PGI status will boost sales. 8. What are consumption trends in EU, USA, Canada, Middle East, China, Korea, etc. Can't find hard data, just anecdotes. 9. Do Japan & Canada FTAs safeguard EU PGIs on cheese? Unclear. Canada appears major importer of Danish cheeses. Where is EU cheese PGIs protected besides South Korea? 10. Havarti is not on the PGI list in Australia FTA discussions. Source for this, but unclear what it means exactly. 86.83.56.115 (talk) 15:33, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

References

I think the source for the history of the cheese isn't reliable.

The source(s) for the history of the cheese, specifically 3, but in part also 4 and 5. No sources are cited for these claims, and outside of these articles I have been, myself, unable to find any sources on this, Danish or English, not even the website of Havarthigaard (https://havarthigaarden.dk/) says this. Therefore, I think the inclusion of this topic should maybe not be there, to make sure none of what is being said is untrue. Primake (talk) 23:35, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Proposed improvement to history section

• Danish havarti was previously called "Danish Tilsiter" after the German cheese type tilsiter. Danish production began in 1921. In 1952, the cheese was named Havarti, after Havartigården near Holte, where the Danish cheese pioneer Hanne Nielsen worked in the 1800s. Among other cheeses, Nielsen created a Tilsit cheese with cumin for King Christian IX of Denmark.

• Some sources such as The Oxford Companion to Cheese say that Nielsen invented Havarti cheese, while the Dansk Biografisk Leksikon states that the current Havarti is not based on her cheese making.

References

TSventon (talk) 17:05, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

My issue with that is that other sources say otherwise. Going this route makes it easier for other editors to claim that the information is wrong per other reliable sources. SL93 (talk) 16:37, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Per WP:RS - "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered." SL93 (talk) 16:39, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

There is also WP:BALANCE. SL93 (talk) 16:51, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

SL93, I am aiming at WP:BALANCE. I have added another paragraph, is that an improvement? The sources don't seem to dispute the facts, but have a different interpretation. TSventon (talk) 17:20, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

TSventon Yes, but we should include all interpretations from reliable sources. I will work what you wrote into the article and ping you for your opinion. SL93 (talk) 17:23, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

SL93, please post to talk page so we can agree first. TSventon (talk) 17:24, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

TSventon I didn't just because I directly copied and pasted what you wrote except for the world "Danish". Maybe a compromise for the Nielsen hook would be just to mention the king fact and add what you wrote to the Nielsen article as well? SL93 (talk) 17:27, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

SL93, I want to get the text right before the hook and prefer my second section to the current version. For example the Guide to the Cheeses of Wisconsin has two and a half lines on the history of Havarti, so it has to give a simplified version of what the longer sources say. Cheesemarket news says both the cheese was "brought to Denmark by cheese pioneer Hanne Nielsen" and "Danish Havarti dates back to the the 1920s but was not named until 1952". TSventon (talk) 17:47, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

TSventon I have no idea how to do what you want. It's probably best for you to work on that part. SL93 (talk) 17:50, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

I think that your paragraph beginning "Nielsen may have invented Havarti cheese" overstates the conflict between sources, so I prefer my paragraph above beginning "Some sources such as The Oxford". I could replace your paragraph, but you probably wouldn't agree. TSventon (talk) 18:00, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

TSventonI replaced it myself. SL93 (talk) 18:06, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

SL93, thank you, see the other page. TSventon (talk) 18:21, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Be bold!

WP:BEBOLD! FOR THOSE who post things here like "this page is bad" or "the history is no good", why don't you go ahead and update it yourself? Like TSventon and SL93 are doing. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 19:45, 2 August 2021 (UTC)