Talk:Hasmonean conquest of Gaza

POV

The Hasmonean conquest of Gaza was fought against the Gazans not against their Nabataean allies. Also the Hasmonean conquest of 145 BC was done in the name of the Seleucid Empire. This needs better research to avoid giving the Hasmoneans undue weight in these historical events. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:40, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@AhmedHijaziElSultani: Please do not remove the POV tags without addressing the issues mentioned. "Under Seleucid influence" is not accurate as mentioned above it was in the name of the Seleucid Empire itself. These are two different "conquests" a few decades apart merged in the same infobox and article; which is misleading to say the least. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:43, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Issues

What is the first source? It says "Gazette numismatique suisse" which implies it is a gazetter of swiss coins? I can't access the source and it isn't in English, but the history of the Hasmoneans is well doccumented in English sources.

What exactly does this article describe? It says "conquest", which refers to the event of violent capturing of Gaza, but it says that it lasted from 145 to 96 BCE. A conquest does not last 49 years. Is it an article about a battle? Under the paragraph "battle", it describes two different events, separated by dozens of years.

Bolter21 (talk to me) 16:30, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The "Gazette Numismatique Suisse" (GNS) is a Swiss numismatic journal that covers topics related to coins, medals, and currency. It includes articles on coin history, coin collecting, and research in numismatics. The journal is published by the Société Suisse de Numismatique (Swiss Numismatic Society) and serves as a resource for numismatists and enthusiasts interested in Swiss and global coinage. This article describes two different conquests of Gaza carried out by Hasmonean leaders. The first conquest was by Jonathan Apphus around 145 BCE under Seleucid influence, the second was by Alexander Jannaeus around 96 BCE during the period of the independent Hasmonean kingdom. AhmedHijaziElSultani (talk) 17:16, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. I trust you on that matter, but still you haven't mentioned any article, but the journal itself(?). You must give the name of the spesific article, who wrote it, pages etc., use {{cite journal}}, though still think a better source is needed.

But from what you are saying, there are two different events? What happened in between? If Jonathan captured Gaza once, why was it needed to be captured again? I looked up, and the events between Jonathan and Gaza are mentioned in 1 Maccabees, chapter 13, though Gaza itself isn't mentioned. Josephus' Antiquities, Book XIII ch. 5 mentions Gaza. It says that the Jonathan arrived to Gaza in order to persuade them to ally Antiochus, but they refused so he beseiged their city, and ravaged their contryside, and when they understood no help will arrive, they decided to declare friendship to Jonathan, and he took some of them as hostages to Jerusalem. But the city was not conquered.

It was only in the time of Alexander Jannaeus that Gaza was captured, along with, Anthedon, Raphia (Rafah), and Rhinocolura (Arish) (Jos. XIII, ch. 13:3; ch. 15:4)

So these are two events of unrelated contexts. Bolter21 (talk to me) 09:00, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try to find better sources. Josephus mentions that Jonathan arrived at Gaza to persuade them to ally with Antiochus. When the Gazans refused, Jonathan besieged the city. Eventually, the inhabitants of Gaza, realizing no help was forthcoming, declared friendship with Jonathan. However, Josephus does not state that he conquered Gaza or took control of the city permanently; instead, it suggests a temporary resolution where the city declared friendship out of necessity. Later, during the reign of Alexander Jannaeus, Gaza was indeed captured and subjugated. Josephus, in Antiquities of the Jews (Book XIII, Chapters 13 and 15), details how Alexander Jannaeus extended his conquests to include Gaza, Anthedon, Raphia, and Rhinocolura, solidifying control over these regions. That's how I get it AhmedHijaziElSultani (talk) 10:24, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You must use a reliable secondary source, otherwise it must be stated that anything based on Josephus is based solely on Josephus, and a link to its sources, to avoid breaking WP:PRIMARY and WP:SYNTH. Bolter21 (talk to me) 14:00, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What do you suggest? I think you're more experienced if it comes to citing correct sources AhmedHijaziElSultani (talk) 00:32, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have an English source I can send you (A HISTORY OF THE HASMONEAN STATE Josephus and Beyond Kenneth Atkinson), and some pages from a Hebrew book if you can read Hebrew (a history book on the Hasmoneans by Uriel Rappaport). Bolter21 (talk to me) 14:23, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sure AhmedHijaziElSultani (talk) 00:53, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@AhmedHijaziElSultani: Ignoring my concerns above and removing the POV tag without following the relevant WP guideline is not constructive to WP so please refrain from this type of behavior.

@Bolter21: The relevant information for this article can be found in Gaza: A History by Jean-Pierre Filiu, which does not support the narrative presented here. Also, this article should be split into two; two articles for two very different events. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:29, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Makeandtoss, could you be kind as to describe what narrative is disputed? I entered the discussion late. Bolter21 (talk to me) 09:55, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

First event was done in name of Seleucid Empire and does not appear to have seen Gaza being incorporated into Hasmonean kingdom. Then there is no mention of what happened in the 49 years in between. Also portraying the two events in the same article is misleading. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:07, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

With that I agree. From what I understand, only the second conquest of Gaza seems notable. It is it's own topic in several topics I've read, because it is had far-reaching geopolitical consequences. Clearly the first conquest can go into the "background" section. Bolter21 (talk to me) 14:05, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]