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Premiere of Brahms Fourth Symphony

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The article claims that von Bulow gave the premiere of Brahms' Fourth Symphony. However, almost every other source I can find (including Wikipedia's own article on the work) says that Brahms led the premiere himself, although he used Bulow's Meiningen orchestra. See, for example, this page. I'm removing this claim. Grover cleveland 08:15, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If this helps...this is from George Marek's "Richard Strauss - The Life of a Non-Hero" (first edition, pg. 59):

"Meiningen repertoire was not of course limited to Beethoven and Wagner. Brahms was one of Bulow's current enthusiams. He held open house for Brahms: whenever Brahms wished it, Bulow was ready to play his muisc or to test a new composition by him. Several of Brahm's major works--the Third and Fourth symphonies, both of the Overtures, and the Second Piano Concerto--were tried out in Meiningen befor Brahms committed them to publication."

Maybe this is where the confusion comes from. He might have been to first to "play" the Fourth, but Brahms officially premiered the piece on October 25, 1885.--Roivas 06:08, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the quote -- interesting that it says that the Fourth was tried out in Meiningen but not explicitly that von Bulow was the conductor. It looks as if von Bulow made his Meiningen orchestra available for the premiere of the Fourth, but that Brahms himself was actually the conductor. That could explain the confusion. Grover cleveland 18:28, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

All things are true: Brahms conducted the Meiningen orchestra for the first public performance, but the orcestra had been prepared and rehearsed by von Bulow. Von Bulow conducted the second performance in Meiningen a week later but Brahms then led the orchestra on a tour of Germany and the Netherlands. Dorphd (talk) 06:05, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Three Bs; all other composers are cretins??

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This quotation attributed to von Bülow seems extreme. How well is it documented? Not by a primary source such as a published letter from von Bülow, but by a secondary source Moritz Moszkowski, according to the cited reference A. Walker p. 289. In the WP article on Moszkowski the quote is somewhat different and is in French: Bülow is said to have written in an autograph book "Bach, Beethoven [and] Brahms: Tous les autres sont des crétins" under which Moszkowski, who was Jewish, is said to have written "Mendelssohn, Meyerbeer [and] Moszkowski: Tous les autres sont des chrétiens" (all the others are Christians). The footnote for that is to a sleeve note for a CD which gives the anecdote but no further reference. So that trail runs dry. Back to Walker, the WP editor's reference to the quote has in the code for the Google Book page letters+of+moritz+moszkowski and apparently as a result when one gets to the page for the Walker Google Book, "letters of moritz moszkowski" is already supplied in the space for a Google Book search as if to be helpful, but clicking on it, I did not find any such actual book. I tried Google itself in English, French and German, having no success with German "Briefe von M...M..." but some hits in French "Lettres de M... M..." I found no book of collected letters in French, but two individual letters, "Lettre de Maurice Moszkowski 9 juin 1876" and "Lettre de Maurice Moszkowski à Edouard Ganche Paris 6 février 1914", each offered as Google Book, neither with any preview, it seems one had to buy to read.

Now it seems the opportunity to buy was apparent, not real. I tried and from the suggested sources, neither letter was available. Marlindale (talk) 03:03, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Was "letters of moritz moszkowski" a stab in the dark for a source? I could not document that Moszkowski himself had written the anecdote in anything published. Maybe it was passed down by word of mouth until eventually written in a publication, but when and by whom, I don't know.

The prefatory words "The greatest composers are" appear in the version in this WP article but not, except by implication, in the French version. This also suggests an anecdote which has been altered in the retelling? In yet another version, "Moszkowski" is replaced by "Your humble servant, Moritz Moszkowski."

The second line in the French couplet is said to have been written by Moszkowski. I wonder if he, or even someone else other than von Bülow, may also have written the first line, as a parody of von B's notion of the Three Bs. The French version is punchier, and 'chrétiens' rhymes with 'crétins' better than 'Christians' does with 'cretins'. Moszkowski lived in Paris from 1897 (age 43) on, but why should von Bülow have written in French?

Walker, p. 19, writes that von Bülow condemned "Jews as a group" and made "abrasive utterances" about "Jews in general", although he had had close friendships with several "individual Jewish intellectuals and artists," among whom Moszkowski is not listed. Moszkowski could have understandably had some negative feeling about von Bülow although (Walker, p. 452) he contributed one of the 500 wreaths at von Bülow's funeral.

Returning to Walker as a Google book and searching for "Moszkowski" in it led to four pages, another being p. 383, on which it's said that as conductor of the Berlin Philharmonic von Bülow brought the "latest music to Berlin audiences", putting on his programs music by a wide variety of composers, including Moszkowski, and several other composers now almost completely forgotten.

Walker says von Bŭlow wrote the line ending with "cretins" "in a fit of apostolic fervour" but that seems to me not an explanation; it seems to me much more likely that Moszkowski (or someone) wrote it in French as part of a parodic joke. Marlindale (talk) 22:57, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how one can deal with the "cretins" quotation from a neutral point of view. If one takes it as factual, then it seems that von Bűlow wrote (or said) something quite outlandish, implying, for example, that Mozart (whose Marriage of Figaro was much admired by Brahms) was a cretin? That would be a severe judgment against von Bűlow. But if one takes the view that the anecdote is a fiction by Moszkowski, then it would seem a judgment against Moszkowski. I propose to delete the cretins anecdote from this article and the Moszkowski one, not sooner than November 1, but not later than Dec. 31, leaving time if others want to discuss. By the way I found in Slonimsky's Book of Musical Anecdotes a quotation in French, saying that "tous les autre sont des crétins!" [attributed to von Bülow] 'a été parodiée par Moszkowski, qui connaissaient son esprit antisémite, pour devenir {was parodied by Moszkowski, who knew his antisemitic tendency, to become] "Mendelssohn, Meyerbeer, Moszkowski, tous les autres sont des chrétiens!" This goes only partway toward my suggestion that the "crétins" phrase was already a parody by Moszkowski, but again, I don't want to say that in the article, I want to delete the "quotation". Marlindale (talk) 03:23, 25 September 2014 (UTC) Marlindale (talk) 03:37, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The Three Bs article quotes from the Slonimsky book for two quotes, and the book contains the "cretins" anecdote on many pages, pp. v, 16, 25, 53, 56, 189, 276, 614, but the Three Bs article does not quote the "cretins" anecdote despite its apparent great relevance, so I think that article already takes the attitude I'm recommending. Marlindale (talk) 03:37, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

First European pianist to perform (tour?) in America?

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von Bülow, the article says, was piano soloist in the world premiere of Tchaikovsky's first piano concerto in Boston, 25 October 1875. Was this the first performance (of anything) in America by any European concert pianist? Marlindale (talk) 23:03, 24 May 2016 (UTC) Marlindale (talk) 23:09, 24 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Anton Rubinstein made his first American tour in the 1872-3 concert season.Jonyungk (talk) 15:37, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. Marlindale (talk) 17:55, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Relationship with Mahler

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This page fails to mention that he knew Mahler, and liked him. He encouraged him. And of course, Mahler's 2nd Symphony (the Resurrection) he said was stuck and how to finish it came to him while atending Von Bulow's funeral. The best though is that originally the first movement was a tone poem, called Totenfeier, which Mahler played for Von Bulow who commented 'that makes Tristan sound like a Haydn symphony.' Could just link to the page about Mahler 2 which has this info: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Symphony_No._2_(Mahler). I do think it's important though, given how influential Von Bulow was.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Codeslubber (talk • contribs) 04:27, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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