Talk:Hannibal Gaddafi

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Neutrality/NPOV

There's a neutrality flag on this article but nothing about it on the talk page. While recognizing that any member of the Gaddafi family is likely to be a fairly controversial figure at the moment (currently March 4, 2011), I don't see anything in the revision history, going back about a year, that warrants the tag, except for one revision that was reverted as vandalism. This article is extremely bland, and in its current form comports with NPOV as I understand it. Anybody want to discuss this? Knowing nothing about the person, I am unwilling to make a call on it, given that what I know about Libya at the moment suggests that if nothing else this article could be considered whitewashed. KASchmidt (talk) 01:26, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I also don't know much about the family outside what's going on in Libya. I agree that this article seems to comply with the NPOV guidelines, but I also share your concerns that it might be whitewashed. Time to go on a news hunt! --- c y m r u . l a s s ^{(talk me, stalk me)} 18:49, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I've found some sources ((news.scotsman.com • bbc 1 • bbc 2) that he and his wife (Aline Skaf, who is not mentioned in the article) were arrested in Switzerland in 2008 for hitting hotel staff. Some sources (alarabiya.com • dailymail.co.uk) also say that al-Gaddafi had beat his wife, who was pregnant at the time, but I'm not sure yet if it's just gossip. The Daily Mail is known for being a bit gossip-y and sensational, but there might be truth to what they're reporting. al-Gaddafi was also arrested in 2005 for hitting his girlfriend. Even though al-Gaddafi was let out on bail, his father decided to protest Switzerland by placing an embargo on the nation and preventing Libyans from getting Swiss visas. Also, according to worldnewsco.com, he has been arrested for numerous other things in Europe such as reckless driving. --- c y m r u . l a s s ^{(talk me, stalk me)} 19:04, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the following from the article Muammar al-Gaddafi:

The fifth eldest [child of Muammar al-Gaddafi], Hannibal Muammar al-Gaddafi, once worked for General National Maritime Transport Company, a company that specializes in Libyan oil exports. He is most notable for being involved in a series of violent incidents throughout Europe. In 2001, Hannibal attacked three Italian policemen with a fire extinguisher; in September 2004, he was briefly detained in Paris after driving a Porsche at 140 kilometres per hour (90 mph) in the wrong direction and through red lights down theChamps-Élysées while intoxicated; and in 2005, Hannibal in Paris allegedly beat model and then-girlfriend Aline Skaf, who later filed an assault suit against him.^{[a 1]} He was fined and given a four month suspended prison sentence after this incident. In December 2009 police were called to Claridge's hotel in London after staff heard a scream from Hannibal's room. Aline Skaf, now his wife, was found to have suffered facial injuries including a broken nose, but charges were not pressed after she maintained she had sustained the injuries in a fall.^{[a 2]} On 15 July 2008, Hannibal and his wife were held for two days and charged with assaulting two of their staff in Geneva, Switzerland and then released on bail on 17 July. The government of Libya subsequently put a boycott on Swiss imports, reduced flights between Libya and Switzerland, stopped issuing visas to Swiss citizens, recalled diplomats from Bern, and forced all Swiss companies such as ABB and Nestlé to close offices. General National Maritime Transport Company, which owns a large refinery in Switzerland, also halted oil shipments to Switzerland.^{[a 3]} Two Swiss businessmen who were in Libya at the time have, ever since, been denied permission to leave the country, and even held hostage for some time.^{[a 4]} (see Switzerland-Libya conflict). At the 35th G8 summit in July 2009, Gaddafi called Switzerland a "world mafia" and called for the country to be split between France, Germany and Italy.^{[a 5]}

References

^ Bremner, Charles (4 February 2005). "Hannibal gives Gaddafi a bad name". The Times. London. Retrieved 13 May 2010.
^ "Police called to Gaddafi son's hotel room after staff hear screams – Crime, UK". The Independent. London. 31 December 2009. Retrieved 14 February 2010. ^{[dead link‍]}
^ "Libya 'halts Swiss oil shipments'". London: BBC News. 24 July 2008. Retrieved 24 July 2008.
^ "Merz hints at new Gaddafi meeting". 18 September 2009.
^ Bachmann, Helena (25 September 2009). "Libyan Leader Gaddafi's Oddest Idea: Abolish Switzerland". TIME. Retrieved 14 February 2010.

File:Hannibal Muammar Gaddafi.JPG

the article's photo of al-Gaddafi

--- c y m r u . l a s s ^{(talk me, stalk me)} 19:20, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And this) covers the 2005 assault on then-girlfriend Aline Skaf.

Obviously, this will need to be researched more before adding any of this stuff to the article, but why don't we begin a draft in a section on this talkpage? The quoted content from Muammar al-Gaddafi above would be a good place to start. --- c y m r u . l a s s ^{(talk me, stalk me)} 19:43, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be okay with that. I'd also support sticking what you've already gotten from Muammar al-Gaddafi into the Hannibal Gaddafi article as soon as possible in an effort to attract attention and stimulate more participation.KASchmidt (talk) 23:13, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Anybody else notice that the article's picture of al-Gaddafi looks nothing like the picture in the BBC article and other articles? --- c y m r u . l a s s ^{(talk me, stalk me)} 19:54, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, that's funny. I think that if you're willing to be highly forgiving, squint, and make allowances for a decade of aging and differences in hairstyle and weight, you can just about concede that the two might be photographs of the same individual. I think the BBC photo you linked to is probably more current, less official, and more likely to present copyright issues for Wikipedia (the official-looking photo counts against the fair-use rationale that there are no uncopyrighted pictures of Hannibal al-Gaddafi, for instance). In light of that, I'd say that despite the current image being laughably out of date at best, we should probably use it. KASchmidt (talk) 23:13, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you there. I'm going to do some Googling and see if I can't find any non-copyrighted pictures of al-Gaddafi that look more like him, though. --- — Preceding signed comment added by Cymru.lass (talk • contribs) 00:00, 7 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This article from Danish newspaper B.T describes how Hannibal Gaddafi sued another Danish newspaper, Ekstra Bladet, for publishing a story about his alleged kidnapping and beating of a man at the Libyan ambassador's residence in Copenhagen, in 2005. The High Court of Eastern Denmark ruled that the evidence in existence supported Ekstra Bladet's story about the beating. http://www.bt.dk/krimi/gadaffi-junior-tabte-til-ekstra-bladet —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.183.128.38 (talk) 17:31, 11 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

My Danish is kind of bad, but the impression I get from that article is that Ekstra Bladet won on the ground that Gaddafi never appeared in court to present his own case, and hence that EB won more-or-less by default. I also don't know much about Danish libel/defamation law. When the article says in the last paragraph that "Ekstra Bladet vandt også sagen i byretten, og nu har så også landsdommerne slået fast, at det materiale, der findes, støtter avisens historie," or "EB also won the case in city(?) court, and so now national judges have also determined that the materials that exist support the newspaper's story" (translation mine) does it mean that the court found that EB had proved its defamation case, or that judges had (elsewhere perhaps) determined that the underlying facts that EB had reported were true? In other words, did the judges determine that EB had reported what the court considered to be a true story, or merely that EB had reported a story it was justified in believing to be true at the time? Regardless, I'm going to see what the guidelines are about using non-English-language news sources as references on English Wikipedia, and incorporate this information into the article if on further investigation it seems reliable. KASchmidt (talk) 20:23, 3 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I have poked into both WP:NONENG and spent some time trying to Google for English-language sources on this defamation suit. The results of my investigations are that first, there are no articles about the Copenhagen incident on the first several pages of Google searches in English under a variety of spellings of Gaddafi; Gaddafi's Swiss troubles are far more to the forefront. Second, searches for "gaddafi copenhagen" and the like return no relevant matches while searching specifically on guardian.co.uk, nytimes.com, washingtonpost.com, latimes.com, or telegraph.co.uk. Third, on this basis WP:NONENG permits citation of reliable non-English sources, provided the original language citation and a parallel English translation is provided, with the order of preference for translation being professional>Wikipedian>Machine. Therefore I will undertake the translation of the material I am about to cite from BT, found by 212.183.128.38 but it should really be gone over by someone with better Danish. KASchmidt (talk) 20:42, 3 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Info from French/Italian wikipedias

A quick look at the French and Italian versions of this article shows them to be somewhat longer than this one. I speak neither language. Any bilingual editors out there want to take a look at those articles and grab what's worthwhile out of them? KASchmidt (talk) 18:46, 15 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Al-Mu'tasim-Billah al-Gaddafi which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 09:46, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion over.

I observe that the move discussion regarding this page on the page noted above has ceased. KASchmidt (talk) 17:25, 28 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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[1] Bremner, Charles (4 February 2005). "Hannibal gives Gaddafi a bad name". The Times. London. Retrieved 13 May 2010.

[2] "Police called to Gaddafi son's hotel room after staff hear screams – Crime, UK". The Independent. London. 31 December 2009. Retrieved 14 February 2010. ^{[dead link‍]}

[3] "Libya 'halts Swiss oil shipments'". London: BBC News. 24 July 2008. Retrieved 24 July 2008.

[4] "Merz hints at new Gaddafi meeting". 18 September 2009.

[5] Bachmann, Helena (25 September 2009). "Libyan Leader Gaddafi's Oddest Idea: Abolish Switzerland". TIME. Retrieved 14 February 2010.

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