Talk:Hamersley, Western Australia/Archive 1

Article Grading

Importance = Low its only a burb of Perth without any major historical events,
Class= B covers the subject maybe some more expansion from single paragraph section to 2-3 paragraph sections, well referenced basically ready for a nomination at WP:GAC Gnangarra 11:55, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Good Article

I've passed this article as a Good Article. Although it has one or two minor problems, overall, it's certainly well-referenced, more or less neutral now that I made two minor edits, looks broad enough to me, the images are fine and its more or less well-written. Some things to fix is that in the intro, surely there's a more precise way of saying "north-north-west", (It just doesn't seem normal to me :/ ) I can't tell if "The name applied to the entire region extending to the coast." is referenced or not, the Town Planning Scheme law looks ambiguously referenced too, and the mortgage belt thing at the bottom might use a sentence of explanation; since its already talking politics, it might be easier to say what that term means in a sentence rather than a reader having to load up another article. Homestarmy 13:30, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Politics

Would a graph be more informative. Fred 18:39, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Probably - I am yet to decide what to do with the politics, other than that what's there now must change. Orderinchaos78 02:55, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Notes

Moved here from main article temporarily (This is a self-confessed dumping ground for images. Once the article is reasonably complete, and even before then, any opinions on which images should go in and where would be most appreciated Orderinchaos78 12:16, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Natural history - common or scientific names

No sure here but in the Natural History section the combination of latin and common names does not seem to flow well. I think that Tuart tree rather than Eucalyptus gomphocephala (Tuart) reads better but don't know the consensus in the style manual on this. Peripitus (Talk) 11:52, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think there's any consensus as this is an unusual situation of a geographic article containing some specialist information. In that context I think it's leaning towards general names but correctly linked to the species. I'm wary of changing it in case I break it though :) Orderinchaos78 12:23, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support better known names. 'Tuart' over 'tuart trees' to imply type of country. P.S. is it possible to identify "... first suburb in the region to be guided by the ... Fred 13:19, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My thought would be to use either Tuart tree (my preference) or Eucalyptus gomphocephala rather than the duel Eucalyptus gomphocephala (Tuart) which should really be Eucalyptus gomphocephala (Tuart), anyhow I'd wait for Hesp to return and get his opinion. Gnan garra 14:11, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's why I'm not doing anything yet with it - there is plenty of time and I still have two big sections to write. Orderinchaos78 14:29, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Side thoughts, I would have expected the area to have a large Banksia prionotes population. The geography section with sub section on natural history is a difficult read, suggest that the soils structure is taken out of the Natural history section, maybe change the title of that subsection to a flora/fauna section. Gnan garra 14:20, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My biological knowledge is relatively poor, but the linked Banksia species appear to be correct from my observations and photos, as is the bottlebrush and sheoak. The major species sadly at the bottom level of many of the bushland areas appears to be those imported wild oats one sees in many places around Perth (I believe of South African origin). (Any scope for invasive species?) Orderinchaos78 14:29, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

<--

This article is shaping up nicely! Thanks for waiting around for my input guys. I stand by "Eucalyptus gomphocephala (Tuart)" as the usual method used by people with an interest in this level of detail of natural history, and as the method that would best stand up to a paper edition - we must always remember that this encyclopaedia need not only be delivered over the Web. I have no objection to adoption of the reverse convention: "Tuart (Eucalyptus gomphocephala)". I am rather less enthusiastic about removing either scientific or common name, but will leave the decision to OIC.

Aside from its age, the Atlas of Natural Resources, Darling System is about the best reference imaginable for this kind of thing; if it doesn't mention B. prionotes, I would be pretty confident in declaring B. prionotes unmentionable. Having said that, Gnangarra is right on the money re: B. prionotes's distribution and habit: The Banksia Atlas shows B. prionotes occurring in the rough area of Hamersley, and says that "B. prionotes shows a strong preference for deep sandy soils, often yellow in colour."

Hesperian 12:43, 29 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Now got a ref for the dieback thing (this is notes rather than a proposed inclusion, as I have no idea how or where to get it in :))

Aintree-Eglinton Bushland (located between the recreation centre and Lampard) is a Green Plan Site under the City of Stirling's Green Plan 2 (City of Stirling (2004). Green Plan 2: a strategy for conservation of urban bushlands. Explanation of the role of Green Plan 2 at City of Stirling (2004). "Strategic Plans". Retrieved 2007-01-31.) There are 58 Green Plan Sites in the City of Stirling. Aintree-Eglinton is also a registered dieback site under the plan. Orderinchaos78 01:30, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thought of a way to get it in under Geography. Just have to get gazettals of the various reserves (which include area to square metres as well as a number I can follow right through to the present). May also see if I can actually see a copy of the Green Plan. Orderinchaos78 00:28, 2 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Should I put in about the dieback? It's on a sign at the reserve and has been confirmed by the Parks and Gardens people at the City of Stirling but isn't actually printed in the Green Plan 2. Besides, I can't figure out a way to put it in that doesn't sound awkward. Also, do I need to reference the acreage of the two reserves? Can be done easily (they're from Govt Gazette entries and verified against a cancelled public plan map) but I don't know if it breaks up readability Orderinchaos78 11:05, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Either a no but.. or yes if.... The reason for a mention of dieback would be dependant on whether the CoS, DCE or some other group are doing/done anything specificily notiable to control or erradicate it. Outside of that I wouldnt include within the article. Again with the reserves unless there is someting of note that would warrant more information what you got is fine. Gnan garra 11:50, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks :) The CoS are, but it's a question of proving it - the guy told me on the phone a list of things they are doing, including injecting things into the trees and so on, but I can't find a written source anywhere. As for the reserves, it would just be two more refs. I think I'll take that bit as is to FAC and if they say it needs references I can always put them in then (it's just two more Govt Gazette entries) Orderinchaos78 13:19, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wonder if its the same thing they have been trialling at Kings Park there they are marking the trees they injected. Suspect if you talk to the parks/gardens guys they will have a source it would be worth mentioning if these parks are unique to CoS, otherwise if its CoS policy for all reserves then it would worth a mention on the CoS article and the web page P&G section will have more info. Gnan garra 13:28, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

1st para

From; Hamersley is a residential suburb of Perth, capital city of Western Australia. It lies 14 kilometres NNW of Perth's central business district (CBD) and 6 kilometres inland from the Indian Ocean at Watermans Bay. The suburb is adjacent to the intersection of two major arterial roads, Mitchell Freeway to the west and Reid Highway to the south, and falls within the Hamersley Ward of the City of Stirling local government area.

To; Hamersley is a residential suburb 14 kilometres(8 mi) NNW of Perth Western Australia's central business district (CBD) and 6 kilometres(3 mi) from the Indian Ocean at Watermans Bay. The suburb is adjacent to the intersection of two major arterial roads, Mitchell Freeway to the west and Reid Highway to the south, and is within the City of Stirling local government area.

removed redundant words

Perth, capital city of Western Australia - duplicated info in para
inland - a burb cant be out at sea can it
it lies

Unnecessary words

Hamersley Ward of - mentioning ward isnt necessary for opening para of lead CoS is enough summary info
falls - action word for a static location, poor prose

added

miles as per WP:STYLE#UOM

This is the what and why for my edits to the first para of the lead. Gnan garra 02:43, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

2nd para

from Hamersley was built in the late 1960s and early 1970s as part of a major effort by the Government of Western Australia to force down the price of land elsewhere by opening up and developing land for housing as quickly as possible.[3] This was a response to upward pressures on land prices across the metropolitan area, including demand created by the growth of the Kwinana industrial district south of Perth and the establishment of the iron ore industry in northern Western Australia. By 1968 land speculation had also become a significant factor, with individuals and companies profiting by buying and selling released but undeveloped land.[4]

to Built during the late 1960s and early 1970's as part of a major effort by the Government of Western Australia in response to upward pressures on land prices across the metropolitan area.

this sentence would then be added to 1st para. Gnan garra 02:56, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

note - I havent done this edit as I need to see where the two reference can be used first Gnan garra 03:01, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Refs are actually a repeat of elsewhere. They appear singly in the history section, but are bunched together up there because the only alternative was three numbers in a row. I've transferred the McCarrey one to its other ref in the article. Orderinchaos78 10:35, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Other edits

Dunno about you but I find it good to print these things out and go through them on paper, I just don't seem to see the same things on the screen! This article is very good but I think what has happened is it's been edited a lot of times and there's some consistency issues. I have edited the lead to be a bit tighter, and also I looked up the policy on leads and they have to be a summary of the article and say why the suburb is notable, so I tried to do that as well (the only bit was the radio tower before really) Hope nobody minds if I go through the whole thing like this... DanielT5 09:29, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

More edits - The end of the history section just kind of ends. I looked up on my new student access at uni and found a heap of stuff about Hamersley, although I don't know where to put it or how to lead it in. There's been a few domestic crimes in the area. Sunday 16 July 2000 a 38-year-old woman Deborah Boyd was "bludgeoned to death in her Hamersley home" allegedly by her ex-boyfriend (both the west australian and the sunday times reported on it twice each) while in February 1998 there was a shooting involving drugs on Beach Road, on Saturday 22 May 2004 a man was "fighting for his life" after being stabbed in the back, and just last week there was a six-hour armed siege in the suburb (I saw this on Tuesday's paper on the bus here and thought "I should see if Orderinchaos78 knows about that" :)... Anyway I have put them here so people can decide if they go in, I can put the sources up if anyone needs them. DanielT5 10:15, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Daniel :) Your improvements to the wording look good IMO... re crime, I'm not sure what the above would add to the article, apart from the Deborah Boyd situation which I do remember being on Channel 7 (didn't realise she was Hamersley! but having looked up Factiva can see the articles you probably did). The above suggests a high crime suburb whereas the general level of crime is much higher in other areas - a POV real estate report I found claims that "crime and petty theft are almost unknown within its boundaries" and a check of Stirling Times crime sections appears to confirm this - and most of the above are the sad products of domestic disputes rather than an evidence of crime in the suburb. Orderinchaos78 04:37, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if?

I wonder if the information on the student numbers at Glendale Primary School are available as it would be an interesting comparison between over crowding peak c.1974 and 2005. Gnan garra 04:51, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting point. Will see if I can get access to the Hamersley Gazette again - it had *some* information about it, although of course it's a secondary source. I might contact the good people at Dep of Ed and see if they have any records of these sorts of things publicly available somewhere. Orderinchaos78 10:13, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Images Needed

~~Aintree-Eglinton Reserve~~
~~Sattelite map like Image:Cullacabardee location.jpg this one~~
~~Community centre?~~
~~A primary school~~
A bus along Eglinton Crescent <-- might try for this tomorrow or Monday Orderinchaos78 16:23, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
~~Rannoch Tay Earn Reserve, preferably with one or more of a pathway, a grassed area and banksia forest~~
~~View from Rannoch Circle~~
~~The radio tower~~
A native bushland area

is this excessive? DanielT5 11:52, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This grabbed my attention on the front page today, but since I work at Centro Warwick I should be able to (eventually) get a picture of those two in the next few weeks. - Boochan 09:47, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Surprise

Living in Perth (although the southern suburbs), i cant imagine that a mere suburb of my small town managed to become a featured article on wikipedia. No news is good news? 58.7.168.208 11:57, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Me too (I'm from Kinross, near Joondalup, in the north)! 58.178.124.65 17:39, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In theory any article can become "featured article" status, its not its importance that matters (see its "low" rating in the box at the top of this page) 84.71.109.84 18:32, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, featured articles are chosen because they meet certain standards (like covering the subject in depth, citing sources very well, having excellent prose). The importance of a topic really has nothing to do with the fact that it gets run on the front page, a lot of articles on very important topics are nowhere near being good enough quality to appear on the main page right now. --W.marsh 20:53, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

damn

Wikipedia will feature even the most useless nobody even gives a shit articles. Kinda shocks me.

I'd think you'd give a s**t if you lived in Hamersley. (Admittedly, that's not very many of us, but Hamersleyans are people, too!) Brutannica 19:39, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Its not a major city nor did anything even remotely historic happen there. WAIT A SEC!!! According to your profile, you don't even live there you bastard!

So? I never wrote that I did. ("Us" refers to the entire human species in this context.) Brutannica 21:41, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I used to live there but moved away. I didn't love the place but I'm glad it was featured, though I'm kind of surprised. But it's a good article and I'm glad it was featured. Admittedly I'm slightly biased. But we all can't be Orange County et. al. 58.160.250.55 20:21, 14 April 2007 (UTC) Dee[reply]

Guys, please be civil. Notability is not a prerequisite for being featured. ~ UBeR 21:38, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

as more and more articles are written its obvious that eventually even the FAs will become a bit random. as long as they are FAs then they act as examples by which to improve other articles, which may or may not be more relevant to most people.--Greg.loutsenko 21:29, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Congratulations

To the main contributor and others. Nice to see it hit the main page. Now, about Fremantle ... Fred 03:55, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

that wouldn't be fair if Australia got picked twice in a row for a FA as you call it.

this article

I've had some discussions with User:Recurring dreams as follows:

the Hamersley article I encountered before editing was very excessive in detail containing verbose language, and kind of detail like listing the scientific name of every single bottlebrush found on a plain (I've never ever seen that in a locality article). to be absolutely honest, and I patrol around a lot of locality articles, it should not be a featured article nor good article, because it is not encyclopaedic and written verbosely in parts instead of being concise and to the point and it mixes a lot of very localised non notable information amongst the main text. Michellecrisp 12:14, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

as with most things, if you search long enough you can dig up more information till the cows come home. notability and relevance are primary reasons for including more content. examples like this show unencyclopaedic writing [1] everywhere in Australia uses the same voting system! or do people really care about the scientific name of every plant species in every suburb? I think not. This is verbose too [2] if there is no mention of private schools one can safely assume there aren't any. on the same token, it might as well have said Hamersley has no universities or medical research facilities. Michellecrisp 12:28, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You said " We can't assume readers will know the systems and practices of Australia" then every locality entry should include that info. or perhaps that people drive on left hand side of the road. my point is that info for a locality should be specific to that locality. Using your argument, I should have not made this delete today [3]. you should see that this line should not be added to every locality in Australia where wool is mentioned. Michellecrisp 13:00, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A general comment on how an external factor is influencing a local industry is fine. but back to my original point. if someone wanted to know more about the voting system at state level in Hamersley all they needed to do was click on Western Australian Legislative Assembly. that is what links are for. Michellecrisp 13:31, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Michellecrisp 03:15, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Scientific names of all those plants

is it necessary for a locality article? Michellecrisp 03:15, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think the amount of species, to be included, was discussed before the Feature article review; it would seem to be an appropriate amount for the section. I don't see why it is necessary to exclude it, disinterested readers can and will skip it. As for prominence in the article, the natural history occurs within the history section - which (naturally) occurs near the start of the article. The species were around for a long time, not so much at the moment ;-) ☻ Fred|☝ discussion|✍ contributions 04:25, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm happy to keep these in if that's the consensus. Michellecrisp 05:19, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

completeness

just to reiterate, I have no issue with the fact that almost everything is well citated on this article, just that its structure and number of facts is what I have an issue with. Not everything is totally relevant or significant, facts should not be added in for the sake of it. Minor factual details should not be included. of course, the issue is how you do define minor. I've raised in another article the history of bus services... are people really interested in knowing who operated which bus service years ago? Michellecrisp 04:42, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is appropriate for a locality article to include information on the vegetation communities that are/were present in that locality. In this case, the locality is vegetated by Jarrah-Marri woodland and Jarrah-Tuart woodland. Once we have Jarrah-Marri woodland and Jarrah-Tuart woodland articles, we can link to them from here, and the detailed discussion of vegetation community composition can be very much reduced. Until then, this information needs to stay. I understand and agree with your point that "not everything is totally relevant or significant", but I feel very strongly that the vegetation communities that are present at the locality are both.

It is not at all accurate to say that we are "listing the scientific name of every single bottlebrush found on a plain"; the Swan Coastal Plain is home to 3771 plant species, and we have mentioned 16 species known to be (and cited as) important floristic components of the vegetation in the Hamersley area, plus one rare species known to have remnant populations in the area. There are 14 bottlebrush species native to the Swan Coastal Plain, but only one is an important floristic component of vegetation of Hamersley, so only one has been mentioned here.

As for the scientific names issue, specification of scientific names is accepted practice in natural history articles on Wikipedia, and in natural history publications in the real world. I don't understand why you would want to remove them.

Hesperian 05:11, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I concur with Hesperian. It would be confusing to use common names alone in this article because:

Not many readers outside Australia would know what a Jarrah or Tuart is, internationally many more readers would know what a Eucalyptus is;
Stinkwood is the common names of a mulitude of species;
Orange Wattle, a name used in Western Australia, is more commonly known elsewhere as Golden Wreath Wattle or by its botanical name;
Coastal Wattle, in the eastern states, is identified with a variety of Acacia longifolia rather than Acacia cyclops

Of course, as a reader you can click through to check the linked article but it would make it a bit labourious going through 16 species one at a time to check exactly which species is being referred to. Also if you are printing out the article or section, for research, it's preferable to have all the information integrated.--Melburnian 08:45, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

History section

deserves its own article in my opinion. Michellecrisp 03:49, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You could ask the editor (when he returns) to give you some info for that, or use the extensive references to start one off yourself. The current section is succinct, but if any thing should emerge from research into a new history article, then perhaps a change would be appropriate. ☻ Fred|☝ discussion|✍ contributions 04:32, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments. I do not believe the current section is "succinct" at all meaning concise [4]. It is very long and contains a lot of minor details that may not be totally relevant for someone using this as an encyclopaedia. There is no need to list every detail just the most notable and important ones. This kind of text sounds like some sort of overly detailed Council planning history:

A time limit of 3½ years for developers to construct homes on released land was built into the scheme in an effort to prevent land speculation, which the inter-departmental committee believed was a key factor in spiralling prices in Perth.[4][32] By July, however, negotiations between the councils broke down, and the Shire of Perth (now City of Stirling) decided to administer its own part of the scheme independently.[33] The scheme was divided into nine sections, with what is now the suburb of Hamersley being the first stage

.

Michellecrisp 04:39, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually being worked on when I have time. There's another article in the works called Hamersley Development Scheme, which is a bit of a dumpster atm and woefully incomplete, but is intended to give a history of the Scheme. As that article gets developed, some can be migrated from this one - that was always the intention. Unfortunately a lot of the details *are* technical, and without which the history wouldn't make a great deal of sense or be complete. For instance, the above indicates why Warwick and Greenwood are different to Hamersley, why the suburb now called Hamersley got built first etc. As a full-time uni student with a hectic schedule I haven't had time for major article development since I wrote this stuff - however when I come back I'm on holidays for two weeks and have most of the sources on my PC. As for "overly detailed", the above is barely four lines. Orderinchaos 04:48, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Jump in history

this is all under "suburban development".

By July 1975, 200 defence service homes were under construction on land immediately to the east of Erindale Road, to be made available to veterans from March 1976.[49] The rest of eastern Hamersley was built over the next few years, and by 1981 development was essentially complete.[50] The community hall was redeveloped into a fully-fledged community centre, which officially opened in 1990.[51]
Despite Hamersley's stability in the years since 1981 and its relatively low crime rate,[52] it has periodically drawn the attention of the Perth media. In July 2000, a man bludgeoned his former girlfriend, mother-of-two Deborah Boyd, to death in a rented home in Brabant Way. He was subsequently sentenced to strict-security life imprisonment.[53] On 23 January 2006, a large scrub fire caused the closure of Reid Highway and delays in rail line services during the afternoon rush hour.[54]

there's a jump in history from essentially 1981 to 2000. it's incomplete. Michellecrisp 05:33, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is because essentially there was no events of local historical significance in that period (hence the term "stability" in the first line of the quoted section) - I did a detailed media and archive search at the time. Orderinchaos 09:13, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Featured article review

Dear all, I've placed this article for review. I would appreciate third party input into this rather than those attached to this article. Michellecrisp 05:54, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Featured article review/Hamersley, Western Australia Hesperian 06:07, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Request reinstatement

Of some of all material in this revert [5]. I have been accused of bad faith level 3 vandalism for this (even though an administrator disagrees with the vandalism warning). See here for reasons: User_talk:Thewinchester#Assuming_bad_faith. Thanks to those who may not agree with all my edits but have displayed good faith in me. Michellecrisp 15:26, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A couple of minor comments

The Vickers Street precinct street names appear to be named after aircraft maufacturers (Vickers, Avro and Farman Aviation Works). I wonder if Hillier Place was meant to named Hiller Place after Hiller Aircraft Company?--Melburnian 03:53, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(After some more OR) Don Place and Hillier Place may have a connection with Don Hillier as per [6] [7] --Melburnian 10:06, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the ABC tower affecting residents "well being and quality of life", it's not clear in the article if this relates just to interference or includes perceived health issues --Melburnian 03:53, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately the 1973-74 planning documents didn't cover it :/ all it had was that Project Homes designed the area. Complete OR here, so can't be used - but the issues with the tower were not health ones (that much is referencable) but more affected certain electrical devices, meant some people couldn't watch TV without buying a special box from Victoria to filter out the "noise", and people could hear ABC radio loudly on corded landline telephones and even in microwaves when cooking! If someone has any idea how to source that side of it, or maybe how to better word that section, that would be great. Orderinchaos 09:45, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Transmission towers

I thought page 7 of this http://www.acma.gov.au/webwr/aba/newspubs/info_about_us/newsletter/documents/abaupdate102.pdf explains the importance of the towers. Happy for others to decide if this is notable for the article. Michellecrisp 14:15, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks - I seem to remember seeing a text version of this somewhere, and not using it because it's only mentioned once. As you said may be useful for establishing notability though, as it's a fed govt publication. What I'd love to find is a source for the year of the tower's construction. I've since found another source that suggests 1935, but as it's a local newspaper written in 1990, I'm not sure how reliable its sources were. Orderinchaos 03:19, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Great article

Contributions

The suburb is being flyered about a local political issue at present, and this page is referenced from it. As such we may get more edits than normal from new or IP editors, please assume good faith with them as the fact they're here suggests they actually read the flyer and are interested in local affairs. Orderinchaos 11:03, 21 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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