Talk:Habesha peoples/Archives/2016/November

Related people

Linguistic study along with historical and genetic study are parameters for grouping people and determining related peoples. Based on Lipnski's linguistic analaysis the Highland East Cushitic are the susbtratum for southern semitic languages. Based on this example here substratum/substrates are the languages that may or may not have been spoken before people adobted another language but based on the linguistic analysis we can certainly say that southern semetic languages (Amharic, Argobba, Gurage, Gafat, Harari) were heavily influnced or borrowed loanwords from most likely proto East Highland Cushitic languages that have now became Sidama-Hadiya-Alaba-Kamabata languages as a result of peoples integration, therfore they can be considered as related people. Soupforone, before I undo your last revert let me know why you think they should not be included - EthiopianHabesha (talk)

Lipinski indicates that Highland East Cushitic was the main substratum in only some Ethiopian Semitic languages (Argobba, Harari, Gurage). While it also influenced Amharic to a lesser degree, the principal substrate in Amharic is instead Agaw or Central Cushitic. Likewise, Agaw, Beja and Saho-Afar are the main substrates in the Ge'ez, Tigre and Tigrinya languages [1]. Also note that many Cushitic-speaking individuals in southern Ethiopia actually adopted those languages, unlike most of the central and northern Cushitic-speaking groups (cf., language shift). So even if Highland East Cushitic had been the main substrate for all of the Ethiopian Semitic languages (which it isn't), that still would not necessarily mean that the modern Sidama speakers are closely related to the modern Abyssinians. Anyway, per the coding, the related parameter is meant for other ethnic groups related to the group. It is the separate languages parameter that is earmarked for languages spoken by the group. Soupforone (talk) 15:14, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Also, please stop with the file jamming on the Ethiopia page. You appended those superflous files in February without discussion much less consensus, and in the process you also removed and replaced a few too (such as the Aussa Sultanate flag). It's therefore disingenuous to now claim that the jammed files were somehow the original files, when they in fact weren't. Anyway, please heretofore adhere to the standard discussion and consensus process as per policy. Soupforone (talk) 15:51, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Soupforone, there are three most important points from Lipnski analysis [2]. 1) He said " Cusitic influence is stronger in the southern semetic languages (Amharic, Argobba, Gurage, Harari) than the northern ones (Tigre & Tigrinya)" which means North ones are less related to Beja, Afar & Agaw while southern ones are so much strongly related to cushitic languages (East Highland)2) He said "Agaw, Beja & Afar influnced Amharic & Gafat partially" which obviously doesnot mean greater subtrate influnce but could also be much less influence 3) He said ".....(substratum of) Highland East cushitic covered the domain of Amharic, Argobba, Harari and Gurage" which means southern Semitic languages including Amharic are greatly influenced by highland east cushitic substrates (Sidama, Hadiya & Alaba) and this statment of his obviosly doesnot mean less influnced (as you said above) but it means highland east cushitic substrate influnce is equally or greater than Agaw, Beja & Afar. If you think my summary above is inaccurate then we may request 3rd opinion. Let me ask you, based on what parameter (language relaition based on linguistic study? geography? demography? genetic study?) that Beja, Afar, Somali, Oromo and Agaw are included in the related people list? - EthiopianHabesha (talk)

As for Ethiopia article, why don't you make change line by line instead of making several unexplained changes (deleting images & Paragraphs, sorting, moving paragraphs up and down etc in one edit)? Why don't you like make one edit for sorting only, one edit for deleting/modifying one phrase/paragraph/image only? Wikipedia is edited in consenses where editors need to know what has been changed and for what reason. As for my edit in february (8 month ago) what is the issue, can you be precise? I will undoe your last revert in Ethiopia article untill you edit line by line giving reasons for deleting/modifying contents that have been there for over 8 months. If you think it is inapropriate to edit line by line then we may ask administrators intervention (for the issues you have and also for my isssues I have with your editing behaviour) - EthiopianHabesha (talk)

It doesn't work that way. Your file changes from February were undiscussed and had no consensus to begin with. Per WP:BURDEN and WP:BRD, the onus is therefore not on me but rather you to explain your initial file changes and removals, and obtain consensus for each of them. Soupforone (talk) 17:23, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Lipinski does indicate that Agaw, Beja and Saho-Afar were substrates for Ge'ez, Tigre and Tigrinya in the north and partial substrates for Amharic and Gafat toward the south, but also notes that Highland East Cushitic covered the domain of Amharic, Argobba, Harari and Gurage. However, that does not necessarily imply that Highland East Cushitic had a greater influence on the Ethiopian Semitic languages as whole than Agaw, Beja and Saho-Afar since he also indicates that the three most widely spoken Ethiopian Semitic languages (Tigrinya and Tigre, as well as Amharic partially) have Agaw substrates. In fact, Lipinski writes that Agaw speakers once occupied most of the Ethiopian highlands (i.e., where the Aksumite Kingdom was actually located [3]), and that Tigre was thus mainly influenced by Agaw and Beja substrates specifically and Tigrinya by an Agaw substrate [4]. The Sidama link-thru would therefore be more appropriate on the Amhara page, but even there it is somewhat reaching given the foregoing and the language shift process in the south. As to the related parameter itself, it should follow what the actual coding indicates, which is that it is earmarked for "other ethnic groups related to the group". Related here means ethnically related; the separate language code is instead earmarked for the actual languages spoken by the group. Soupforone (talk) 17:23, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Soupforone, as for Ethiopia article, please do not present my issues as if it is about undiscussed editing. Actually, why I am reverting your edit has got to do with how you make edits i.e. deleting several images & paragraphs and moving paragraphs up & down in one edit and in your edit summary saying you just did sorting while your edit is not just simply sorting but a major change in the article. My opinion is if you think this kind of editing is appropriate for whatever justification then we we will request administrators or other editors intervention and they will solve the issue. I will revert to last edit made by the administrator Materialscientist on 19th October and I will also explain the issue in the users talkpage. Soupforone, please make 1 edit for deleting images, 1 edit for deleting paragraphs and 1 edit for moving paragraphs/phrases up & down while providing reasons for each. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 13:40, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Actually, I simply rolled the files only, no paragraphs (though the consensus policy applies to text as well). And specifically because they contorted/jammed the layout contra the manual of style and were undiscussed to begin with. Anyway, please stop threatening to edit war and instead respect WP:BRD. The WP:BURDEN is on you (not me) to justify your initial file changes. Either do so, or WP:LETITGO. Soupforone (talk) 13:54, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Please stop your false accusations claiming that I am threatening to edit war. What am saying is make your edits transparent and for what ever reasons you may have as to why you need to roll to an edit made 8 months ago we may ask other editors opinion (rfc, 3rd opinion, dispute resolution or administrators opinion). — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 14:22, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

WP:BURDEN does not work like that. Per that policy, "the burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material". The onus here would therefore be on you, not me. I rolled to the original files prior to your undiscussed file changes from February. I did this because the file jamming was contorting the layout (four files in the Menelik area? really?), and also because you erroneously claimed that you were rolling to the original files, when in fact you had apparently changed the original files in February without discussion to begin with. This is not to finger-point, just an observation. Why, for example, blank the Aussa Sultanate flag of all the ancient kingdoms? Why substitute the Addis Ababa stadium? These and the other file changes needed justification in the first place. Anyway, discussion and agreement comes first per WP:BRD. Soupforone (talk) 14:39, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Soupforone, discussion for this topic is moved in the Ethiopia article talkpage, you may move your posts there. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 14:55, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. Soupforone (talk) 15:32, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Soupforone, as for related people, based on your opinion (Beja, Agaw & Afar are related people because Amharic & Tigrinya languages are related to them) why should we not include Highland east cushitic people because linguists concluded that their (proto) languages is the substratum (languages probably spoken before adopting Semitic) for Amharic, Harari & Gurage? Note that Lipnski didnot state that Oromo & Somali being substrate in the Tigre & Tigrinya and there is no Tigre or Tigrinya speaking people who speak Somali but probably some Hararis do and in this case there are also Some Gurages who speak Alaba & Hadiya because they are their neighbors, based on this justification shouldn't we also include Alaba & Hadiya since Somali is in? — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 21:39, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

It would've been sensible to heed Haploidavey's advice on the file jamming. Luckily, though, the compromise formatting is okay. Soupforone (talk) 02:53, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

As to the related parameter, per the coding it is not based on language but rather on ethnic proximity. The languages parameter is for language. However, I do understand your reasoning with the Highland East Cushitic i.e., that it was a substratum of the southern Ethiopian Semitic languages too. The thing is, the modern Highland East Cushitic speakers appear to be quite different from the ancient Highland East Cushitic speakers. The Ethiopianist Donald Levine indicates that these and other early local Afro-Asiatic-speaking populations were of Caucasoid ancestral stock [5], distinct from the early Nilo-Saharan-speaking populations of Negroid ancestral stock [6]. These ancestral origins have essentially been confirmed for the northern Cushitic and Semitic speakers, but not so much for the southern groups [7]. Anyway, I guess the Highland East Cushitic speakers would still be related to the northern Afro-Asiatic-speaking groups, albeit vestigially. Soupforone (talk) 02:53, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Soupforone, I think you are confusing east highland cushitic people with Omotic or Nilotic People who also leave in southern Ethiopia. By appearance east highland cushitic people look the same with northern (Beja) & central (Agaw) cushitic people and actually the Afar people are darker than Gedeo-Sidama-Kembata-Hadiya-Alaba people. See here Gedeo People who are the most southern east-highland-cushitic people, Kembata people, Sidama People and see the Afar People. Anyways, if there is any genetic study we would have taken that as a primary parameter for related people but since most genetic studies finds not that much difference in between the people of the Horn then we will rely on linguistic study. Based on the linguist Lipnski study I am in the opinion that for Amhara (and the other southern Semitic speakers) the most related cushitic people are the Hadiya & Sidama while Agaws are the second most related for Amhara & Gafat. Moreover, historical evidence show that the Hadiya kingdom (later became Sultanate while the inhabitnats were traditional followers) upto the 16th century Oromo expansion ruled all the land located between south of Amhara people and north of Sidama people (i.e. presentday Arsi Oromo, Gurage, Silti & Zay which are closely related to Harari, Kambata, Alaba, Hadiya etc). The other evidence is that historically all the various indigenous people who leaved south of Amhara people before the Oromo expansion are refereed as Sidama People, reason for this is probably the ancient people refer all those people who speak dialects of highland east cushitic languages as Sidama people. Therfore, based on Lipnski stating that the Sidamic languages (EHC) being the substratum for Amharic language and also with the historical evidence then I think they should be included in the related people list. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 16:42, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

The southern Afro-Asiatic-speaking groups are indeed distinct from the northern Afro-Asiatic speaking groups, though in antiquity they were not. The difference now is centuries of Nilotic assimilation by the former. Nonetheless, the southern groups are still closer to the other Afro-Asiatic-speaking groups in the north than they are to the Nilotic and Bantu populations [8]. There is thus an ethnic tie between Abyssinians and the Sidama/Hadiya, albeit of a more vestigial nature. Regards-- Soupforone (talk) 02:22, 1 November 2016 (UTC)