Talk:HMS Sultan (shore establishment)

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https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/576401/Better_Defence_Estate_Dec16_Amends_Web.pdf

JessPavarocks (talk) 03:33, 21 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-63982754.amp 81.101.228.22 (talk) 21:26, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Grange Air Station

@Gavbadger Hi, again. I see you had a major input to this article waaay back in 2014, so I figure you are the expert to ask. Plus I confess I had never even heard of this place until a few hours ago

Various articles throw up 'Gosport' as their origins e.g. 81 Squadron. In that case, and a few others, a link was provided to Gosport, the coastal town. I could see straight away that might be improved, but in my ignorance, redirected the link to Fort Grange because that is where I found a mention of Fort Grange Aerodrome and Robert Smith-Barry's School of Special Flying. It was only later that I found this page about HMS Sultan.

So, there are multiple issues here, and I'm hoping we can resolve them between us.

All the articles that link to Gosport town need re-directing.
This even includes the article on Robert Smith-Barry ! (The man who invented "the Gosport System")
The Fort Grange article needs a link to HMS Sultan
and vice versa?
In fact, HMS Sultan, aka RAF Gosport, aka HMS Siskin, fails to mention Fort Grange or Grange aerodrome (or was it Grange NAS?) at all. This must be rectified. Unless they are two separate places? It is something I am beginning to wonder.
HMS Sultan came about when it was then renamed HMS Sultan on 1 June 1956 when the airfield side was closed down

But 98% of this article is in connection with the flying units based here when it was an actual airfield. Persisting with the name HMS Sultan seems like a case of the tail-wagging-the-dog.

Do we need a new article specifically for the history of Grange Airfield?
Although there are a multitude of inline citations, they appear to boil down to three books plus ABCT. And most of them are related to individual squadron movements. The airfield site itself gets only a brief mention.

In that respect, are the following online sources (and the information contained) of any use?

UK Airfield Guide - https://www.ukairfieldguide.net/airfields/Gosport-flying-sites

Gosport Heritage - https://www.gosportheritage.co.uk/history-grange-airfield/

For me, both of these sites put ABCT to shame. And the newspaper extracts are priceless.

WendlingCrusader (talk) 17:42, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, i've sorted the mis-directed Gosport links, linking them to this article. Regarding names, i have only seen Fort Grange (Gosport), Fort Rowner (Gosport) and Gosport in my books. Royal Navy Research Archive gives RNAS Gosport (HMS Siskin) between 1945 and 1956 and HMS Sultan afterwards. Royal Air Force Base Gosport is a unit at the site, i've seen about 6 similar ones operational between 1920 and 1935 at other inter war airfields which are downgraded to become the administrative element of RAF stations.

Having a quick read of Action Stations 9 (1985). It says the original name of the land between the two forts was "Grange Camp Field" (pre aviation). The two forts were used as accommodation and admin purposes for units since their was no new solid accommodation built for personnel and they only had tents. The forts were used until 1930 as accommodation. With the name "Gosport" being initially used for when units which were headquartered in tents and typically for short stays, but when more permanent offices and hangars were built this name was used for the whole site.

I completely disagree with renaming the site, HMS Sultan has been operational since 1956, that's over 68 years now and still uses aircraft on site for training purposes similar to RAF Cosford. Realistically the only difference between here and Cosford is that Cosford still has an airfield; that day to day is used by the No. 8 Air Experience Flight (a few Grob Tutors), civilian air ambulance that is relocating off site soon (or already has) and a civilian flying club. The RAF doesn't change site names too much like the Royal Navy does.

I believe a good read of Action Stations 9 (1985) or the much newer revised edition will provide a lot of detail so the article can be turned into prose from effectively a list which it is currently.

I've not used the above links before. Gavbadger (talk) 20:09, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks - I was beginning to get worried yet another of my posts had disappeared into a black-hole.

This is just a reflex response from me pending further thoughts; I gave away my father's set of Action Stations (probably 1st Editions, LOL) before I became a Wiki editor; I regret that now, but I have since invested in one of Bowyer's 'Revisited', and tbh he hasn't added a lot. Maybe Action Stations 9 (Revisited) is different?

Regarding the Royal Navy research people not acknowledging 'Fort Grange' except in passing - perhaps the site pre-dates Navy involvement and came under the RFC originally? I left that door open because the whole set-up was an inter-service rivalry mess in those early days. You mention that the forts were (only) used as accommodation, which suggests you haven't got to the part where it is explained that the airfield itself was originally the 'killing ground' open space associated with the Fort? Then we have the Hampshire Aero Club, and indeed the RAS Aeroplane Company. All this predates the RFC/RN involvement.

in April 1910, a local group of aviation enthusiasts (The Hampshire Aero Club) obtained permission from the War Department to gain use of the open area at Fort Grange. This would have been ‘the polo ground’ (what is now HMS Sultan’s sports field south of Fort Grange, between Military Road, Browndown Road, and Grange Road).

I am sorry if you thought I was campaigning to have HMS Sultan renamed; that was absolutely not my intention. But I do sincerely wonder if the early years should be placed in a new article, that puts 'Grange' to the fore, and then leads on to HMS Siskin/HMS Sultan as a later incarnation.

As I said - that's just off the top-of-my-head.

WendlingCrusader (talk) 20:48, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, my copy of Action Stations 9 from 1985, has no mention of the Aero Club. 1910 is very early for aviation in the UK. Cody didn't fly until 1908 and the Royal Aero Club didn't give out any certificates until 1910. Where is the quote from? What page? The forts were used for accommodation and unit offices until proper facilities could be built. Their is no mention of a "killing field" in my book. My book says "By the end of the 19th century the power of contemporary naval guns made the Gosport defences virtually useless, but the forts remained in use and in 1909 a group of naval officers designed, built and attempted to fly a pusher biplane off the grass but they wrecked it. Other enthusiasts had no more success and interest faded, leaving the forts to the Royal Garrison Artillery and the grass to grazing cattle" and "Between the forts lay a fine stretch of level grassland intended to rival the best parade grounds of Europe".

I disagree about splitting off the First World War information, the top half of the article at Sutton's Farm/RAF Hornchurch is a good example of what could be done. It's history is similar to here, airfield operational between 1914-56 for here and 1915-62 for Hornchurch. It just needs a good re-write into prose, i've added more information for the units during WW1, so it should be ok for you to do that. Gavbadger (talk) 00:02, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]