Talk:Grooming

Re-ordering the Pages

Per WP:BROAD: "A broad-concept article is an article that addresses a concept that may be difficult to write about because it is abstract, or because it covers the sometimes-amorphous relationship between a wide range of related concepts." - that's the perfect description of the word "Grooming" as it covers a wide range of concepts people are looking for.

It also says: "If the primary meaning of a term proposed for disambiguation is a broad concept or type of thing that is capable of being described in an article, and a substantial portion of the links asserted to be ambiguous are instances or examples of that concept or type, then the page located at that title should be an article describing it, and not a disambiguation page." That's an exact description of what's happening here.

The History is includes as it's part of the instructions on how to write such a page: "In writing articles on these subjects, it is useful to directly address the scope of the term, and the history of how the concept has developed. Each of the examples of the concept or type of thing should be included at some point in the article, possibly in a list, so that no information is lost from what would have been presented in the disambiguation page format."

"Grooming Gangs" is a loaded controversial term, and it's one of the things people are looking for when they search for "Grooming". People object to that term, and "Localised grooming" has gone on to be represented in academic literature for more than a decade. Localised grooming could be it's own article, with an entry here with a link to a main article, but I'm expanding it as a stub here for now. Originally, it was under child grooming, but it's actually only adolescents (13 - 17) that were impacted and is a unique phenomenon, not a sub-category of child grooming. I originally moved under "Child sexual abuse in the United Kingdom" - but the academic literature describes it on more generalized terms and outside the UK too. I'm not well familiar with it so still researching it to expand/re-write - there is a lot of important information missing in the multiple pages it currently spans.

"Sexual Grooming" is an important concept that impacts more than children. Grooming is increase becoming more and more common to describe things like Financial Grooming and non-sexual Online Grooming and other things that don't fit on the Child Grooming page.

We could move Child Grooming to Sexual Grooming, but Child Grooming is something unique that should be it's own article, and Sexual Grooming isn't appropriate as a sub-category of Sexual Grooming. Denaar (talk) 03:06, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Grooming gangs are a case of real or alleged child grooming and is currently mentioned in the lead of the child grooming article. Claims that mentioning LGBT people is grooming also relates to imaginary child grooming (although likely undue to add to that article precisely because they are false, it will not be mentioned in quality sources that are about actual child grooming). (t · c) buidhe 01:08, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

You'll notice only one of the pages use the word grooming in the title any more; that is not an accident if you read through the comment pages.

Rubbing a child's shoulders in front of their parents to desentise them to touch and make it seem like their parents are ok with it is an example of sexual grooming of a child. It leads to someone being sexually exploited, but the sexual exploitation isn't the grooming, it was those innocent seeming steps leading up to it that is grooming.

Giving someone drugs, kidnapping them, and raping them is not sexual grooming. Threatening someone's family and smashing their windows in to get them to comply is not not sexual grooming. Telling someone if they don't behave there is a bullet waiting for them is not grooming. "Grooming" isn't an accurate description, despite being popularized in the media.

The UK Gov uses the term "Group based child sexual exploitation". [1]. Denaar (talk) 16:11, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

If you're arguing it's not grooming than I'm not following the reasoning for why you're creating an article titled "grooming" to cover this topic. If it is called "Group based child sexual exploitation" then I suggest you start an article under that title. If it is not the same as the concept covered in the article "child grooming" but is called child grooming, that is exactly what dab pages are for. (t · c) buidhe 17:09, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

We had someone mark the change as ok, multiple editors contribute to the page - so the current consensus is support for making this article. The idea of WP:BROAD is when a term "means lots of different things" that isn't one topic, but you CAN write an article about it, you SHOULD write an article about it, not a dab page. This is straight from the page: "A term with many related meanings should be presented as an article on the broadest understanding of the term, rather than as a disambiguation page merely listing variations on that meaning." Right now, people are using "Child Grooming" as the default page for everything - you might not see it because I spent months cleaning it up, making sure nothing is lost, making sure everything has a home, and re-focusing the article on the subject. It should be it's own article. But we also need a WP:BROAD article. Denaar (talk) 12:34, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't think you understand how Wikipedia works.

New Page Patrol is designed to flag certain obvious issues with a page (such as copyvio) determining whether it is a valid article topic is not usually something that they do.

Editing an article does not imply any opinion over whether it should exist or is a duplicate of an existing article.

To be a valid WP:BROAD article its scope needs to be clearly differentiated from existing articles, which this is not. (t · c) buidhe 17:06, 25 September 2023 (UTC)