Talk:Greeks in Poland

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This article was nominated for deletion on 27 April 2009. The result of the discussion was keep.

Section removal and reinstated summary

Addressing CaliforniaAliBaba's point: no, they weren't Greek citizens, from 1947 onwards the vast majority of those who fled due to their participation in the Greek civil war on the side of the Communist party lost their citizenship, regardless of their ethnicity (Greeks, ethnic Macedonians, Bulgarians, etc.). But that's just an answer to a not so important technicality anyway. The ethnic Macedonian community's origins in Poland centers around those who fought with the nationalist organization NOF alongside KKE, and their families. So the important thing here is that they weren't Greeks, either ethnically (by any approach: language, consciousness and overall identity), or nationally (supporting a secessionist movement and not being considered by the Greek state as Greek nationals). The last possible reason i can think for being tolerant on this mentioning would be not having an established topic on Macedonians in Poland, which is obviously not the case.--Δρακόλακκος (talk) 08:32, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

They were refugees from Greece, and Greek citizens at the beginning of the Civil War. CaliforniaAliBaba is right, this section points to a highly important matter inside the "Greek" community in POland, it must thence not only be mentioned in the Macedonians in Greec article but also in the Greeks in Poland.--Pylambert (talk) 09:49, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And they were Ottoman citizens beforehand as well, where does that point out ? I just explained to you that they weren't considered Greeks by any standard, even by themselfs, so how could this be a highly important issue inside the Greek minority of Poland ? The source itself talks about a distinct Macedonian minority and its issues with the Polish state, the only possible link to Greeks is when referring to an Organization of Political Refugees from Greece, which in the summary is mistreated as "Greek refugees", they could have been a bunch of Greek nationalists mobilised by the communist authorities to help enforce an anti-Yugoslavian policy after the Tito-Stalin split for all we know.--Δρακόλακκος (talk) 10:22, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"a bunch of Greek nationalists" describes accurately most Greeks (and you can replace Greeks at will by Turks, Macedonians, Albanians, Flemings etc.), we can on an daily base observe on wikipedia their chauvinistic-oriented "contributions" to articles regarding ethnic minorities in Greece. Ethnic cleansing has been a consistent policy of the governments in Greece as well as in Turkey, including the more recent cases of ethnic Turks with a Greek passport, deprived by the Greek government of their citizenship. "Greek" refugees after the Civil War were Greek citizens, there is no point arguing about this fact. Moreover, Greece has welcomed back in the 1980s former refugees from the Civil War. --Pylambert (talk) 14:42, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not interested in your personal polemics, all but the the last sentence of your comment is irrelevant to the issue in hand. Of course there's no point in arguing about the fact that they weren't Greek citizens, this is just a description of a plain fact, that can't change under any perspective, you can argue that it was wrong for example, but you can't argue that it wasn't true. But that's just a fair answer to a lawyerish way to back this content, as i said before. I also made some points about the possible and more essential reasons that this issue could be of some relevance in this article that you haven't addressed at all. I think i was clear enough and suppose you're intelligent enough to understand what i'm saying, when you decide to respond to my points and not just throw generic rants i'll be waiting to elaborate on my position. You can ask for someone else who is more willing to do it, but in any case if there is no real discussion in the next few days i will remove the contentious paragraph.--Δρακόλακκος (talk) 18:11, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"if there is no real discussion in the next few days i will remove the contentious paragraph": in that case there will be an edit war, I warn you. This "discussion" is over, as far as I am concerned. --Pylambert (talk) 18:20, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Brute force is not going to help you. I'm not leaving the topic until someone can reasonably convince me i'm wrong, without making his irrelevant dogmas the centre of his argumentation, like you have.--Δρακόλακκος (talk) 12:18, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm reiterating my understanding of the whole dispute. From the constructive part of the discussion above, i take there are two basic issues that determine relevance and weight. The one is the existence of a reasonable definition of Greeks in Poland as also including ethnic Macedonians. Defining a "Greek" in this context as someone who's coming from Greece would have some practical value if there wasn't a Macedonians in Poland article, other than that why should we be so naively inclusive ? In all their history in Poland ethnic Macedonians were not Greek citizens (if they were i guess it would be an objective link to this topic) and they did not identify ethnically or nationally as Greeks, unless some reason is shown to exist that proves otherwise, their affiliation was with the Macedonian nation obviously. The second issue is determining the involvement of ethnic Greeks as a group in the abuse of the Macedonian minority by the Polish state. The current summary interprets the OPRG's (Organization of Political Refugees from Greece) involvement as collectively referring to a "Greek refugees" involvement, which is basically OR, the source doesn't mention anything else about this organization. For all i know it could just be a committee of X political puppets and nothing more, we can hypothesize as much as we like but it would still be OR. The essay used is not a history source, its focus was at reporting minority problems in communist Poland, and the part about Macedonians doesn't use any references either, it's based solely on first-hand reporting of the Macedonian community's position on the matter (authors' own statement), presumably close to the year of publication. So i can understand why it doesn't contain any details and that it's still valid for covering a certain minority rights perspective, but not here.--Δρακόλακκος (talk) 14:06, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pylambert, i won't be bullied away through reverts with offensive edit summaries. Discuss first, or if you find the issue too hot, step back and ask for help.--Δρακόλακκος (talk) 09:02, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just for the record, i was wrong in my edit summary, the ref wasn't used above, i had the wrong impression from a ref fix i had to do in a previous edit. That wasn't done on purpose.--Δρακόλακκος (talk) 19:07, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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