Talk:Greece

Semi-protected edit request on 25 May 2024

Remove intricate details and reduce the word count from 14,000 to a more readable 10,000 at maximum. 64.189.18.34 (talk) 06:06, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Jamedeus (talk) 06:12, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Needs a sub section regarding their involvement of persecuting ottoman Muslims during ottoman contraction

Examples of this can be seen in Crete and the fall of Thessaloniki. Greece was one of the key players in persecuting ottoman Muslims and its page should not be exempt from at least outlining how when and where it did so. 92.40.196.175 (talk) 17:01, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Religion

The part in the infobox talking about religion is largely outdated with more recen studies depicting a different attitude towards religion.

https://www.kathimerini.gr/society/562979893/dimoskopisi-dianeosis-statheri-axia-i-thriskeia-kai-nea-agonia-gia-to-klima/

This study says that 18.9% of the population doesnt believe in religion.

While in this study "The U.S. government estimates the total population at 10.5 million (midyear 2022). According to research polls, 81 to 90 percent of the population identifies as Greek Orthodox, 4 to 15 percent as atheist, and 2 percent as Muslim."

https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/greece/ Takis S1 (talk) 14:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Establishment

Why doesn't Greece on Wikipedia have establishment dates before 1830? In other countries you have establishment dates much earlier than the modern establishment of the state, such as Turkey, Egypt, Bulgaria, etc. There are many examples of the establishment of a Greek state in the past such as the Union of Corinth, the Union of Deilos, the Macedonian empire, and the later Byzantine empire. There is even a Wikipedia page that refers to it under the title "Greek Empire"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Empire Ypoferomai (talk) 20:53, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

That's been repeatedly debated before, most recently at Talk:Greece/Archive_17#Why arent ancient/medieval Greek Kingdoms like the Macedonian Empire, Byzantine Empire, Myceneans, Minoans, Cycladics, Greek City States and so on included in the „Establishment“ part of the info box? and earlier at Talk:Greece/Archive_16#Inclusion of the League of Corinth in the infobox. The short answer is: there was never any state in history before 1830 that was called Greece, had any kind of historical continuity with the present-day state, or was even just roughly coextensive geographically with it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:19, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree that obviously these ancient states or entities couldn't really be added here as early stages of the modern Hellenic Republic, since, despite the fact they had a perception of "Greece", they did not exactly form one unified Greek state that developed into modern Greece. Same thing for Italy, where the establisment section doesn't include Rome. On the other hand, I used to think that this section was based primarily on continuity; while countries like France, the UK, Turkey etc. have a direct and unborken continuity with their previous empires, that's not the case with some other countries. One example is Egypt, where the section starts from the 4th millenium BC; can we actually claim that the modern Arab Republic of Egypt is a continuation of the ancient Egyptian kingdoms, at least in any meaningful way? I guess what counts here as "continuity" is the very name "Egypt" (?). But again, ancient Egypt ceased to exist as a state when it fell to the Romans in 31 BC (which is not mentioned there), well before the territory got conquered by the Arabs. Generally, these infoboxes can be very tricky. Piccco (talk) 10:27, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Albania, for example, fell into the hands of the Ottomans. Nevertheless, the kingdom of Arbanon is mentioned. The same is happening with Bulgaria. I think the same should be happening with Greece since there were many cases of Greek empires and alliances in the Greek peninsula such as the Corinthian league and the Macedonian empire. :) Ypoferomai (talk) 10:55, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

The Albania article is a pretty bad example to follow, to my mind (Please don't fall into the trap of assuming that just because some other article does something a certain way, we should do it the same way in another – there are doubtless a lot of articles where things have gone wrong.) For Bulgaria (as for Egypt, Poland and a couple others), I've gone on record on an earlier occasion saying that I can at least marginally see a case for including them, given that they were clearly historical states that shared at least the name and the approximate territory, if not temporal continuity, with the present ones. Albania doesn't have that: there were historical states in what is now Albania, and inhabited/ruled by Albanians, but there was never a historical state of "Albania". Greece doesn't have it either. Just because there were certain states that were run by Greeks, or situated in what is now Greece, doesn't make these states "Greece". (Incidentally, the Greek Empire page you linked to is an utter mess and shouldn't exist.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:08, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I see your point regarding the other Balkan countries. I would like to kindly mention, however, that I still don't think it would be appropriate for anciet states or entities (like alliances etc.) to be used in the establishment section of the infobox of the modern Hellenic republic for the reasons that were given above. Piccco (talk) 11:09, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

The Corinthian League was also called the Hellenic league. It was founded by Philip of Macedonia and was the predecessor of the Macedonian empire. Macedoniam empire also is considered as an example of Greek unification. Also the Byzantine empire was occasionally referred to by others as the Greeks.

Georgia (the country) has a reference to the ancient kingdoms of Iberia and Colchis even though it was not a unified state.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Corinth Ypoferomai (talk) 11:41, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

You are right for pointing this out; that is yet another example of bad usage of the establishment section in a country infobox. Piccco (talk) 13:04, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I would also like to point out that the various polities that you mentioned above are actually not ignored in the article, but are instead mentioned in the history section, which is the right place for all of them to be properly discussed. Among the other reasons given above, the sheer complexity of the various types of ancient Greek polities and other entities is impossible to be accurately represented in the overly simplistic infobox. Piccco (talk) 14:23, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Ypoferomai (talk) 15:11, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Talk:Greece#c-Ypoferomai-20240909151100-Piccco-20240909142300 Ypoferomai (talk) 15:12, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry something happened with wikipedia and I can't send a message.

I would also to say.

The Corinthian league was also called the Greek league and was a federation, not just an alliance. It had a way of organization just like the Mongolian Xiongnu confederation.

If you look at the wikipedia page for Mongolia it mentions this state as an earlier form of establishment of Mongolia.

Also, the Macedonian empire is an example of the unification of the Greeks as it is actually stated on the page of history. Ypoferomai (talk) 15:18, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't exactly disagree, but this is a bit too simplistic and not fitting for this infobox. I understand that you are an inexperienced user, so this might make sense to you, especially after seeing all these terribly wrong infoboxes in other countries. I'm not sure, but I believe Mongolia might be another example of bad infobox; it can't really be used for comparison. Piccco (talk) 10:44, 10 September 2024 (UTC)