Talk:Greece/Archive 9

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Archive 5

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Archive 7

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please fix link

http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Economy_of_Greece#2010.E2.80.932011_Debt_Crisis

Now goes to http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Economy_of_Greece#2010_debt_crisis Davemck (talk) 03:09, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from , 23 October 2011

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Mr/Ms, I strongly recommend that the part where it says: "Greece has land borders with Albania, the Republic of Macedonia and Bulgaria to the north" is changed to "Greece has land borders with Albania, F.Y.R.O.M and Bulgaria to the north" for obvious reasons. Regards, George A. Grandy3411 (talk) 15:21, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Not done: Please see WP:NCMAC. Favonian (talk) 17:49, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

General Strike in Greece October 5, 2011

The biggest anti-austerity protest since June 2011 shut down the entire public sector.

   * Helena Smith in Athens
   * guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 5 October 2011 15.43 EDT

File:Http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/oct/05/general-strike-in-greece?newsfeed=true74.108.166.4 (talk) 07:09, 8 October 2011 (UTC) Organised and spontaneous strikes continued throught October to November, and the Greek leadership was threatened to step aside in favour of undemocratic ECB (anti-Drachma) supporters. The Peoples voice is being muffled by the abandonment of a referendum, as promised by the outgoing leader. The measurestick of Greek economic situation did not include accurate emphasis on National/Sovereign Assets, such as National Cultural Assets and National Human Resources (Public Sector). Such entirely undervalued hemispheres of Greek economics has been ignored in favour of the Wall St. and City of London Banker models (fundamentally flawed). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.147.235.216 (talk) 12:16, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Greece ranks much higher on the UNESCO World Heritage Sites list

This legacy is partly reflected in the seventeen UNESCO World Heritage Sites located in Greece, ranking Greece 7th in Europe and 13th in the world.

But this legacy is fully reflected in the fact that there are numerous other UNESCO World Heritage Sites in neighboring sovereign regions that are attributed to Greek peoples. Greek civilization was indeed far wider spread geographically (up until the early 1920s, before the Greek Genocides) than the political borders of the contemporary state reflect. When the Greek UNESCO World Heritage Sites of Cyprus, Italy, Albania, Egypt, FY Rep. Macedonia, Bulgaria, Israel and especially Turkey (and others) are taken in their entirety, Greece ranks much higher than 7th in Europe and 13th world wide, perhaps even number one. --Nikoz78 (talk) 19:03, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Spelling Mistake

"Healthacare" is not how you spell "Healthcare". Change it. Willage123 (talk) 21:47, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Done. man with one red shoe 22:37, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Byzantine history

In greek history can i edit the post and add some more byzantine history? Not very much but i think that the byzantine history should have more details because it was as importand, if not more, as the ancient greek history and that is told by a greek and not a random byzantium fan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Christos200 (talk • contribs) 20:43, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

semi-protected 2/dec/2011

this article is not semi-protected like similar articles form other countries

There is no "grand coalition"

Greece does not have a government known as a grand coalition. It is called a "government of national unity", and consists of a Pasok government with added LAOS deputies and ND representatives who are not deputies. It is technically a Pasok government because Pasok won the vote of confidence, and Papandreou did not resign until someone was chosen and accepted as the new PM. The President had no role in this, whereas he would have invited political leaders to form a grand coalition. Read the constitional provisions to see what happened; and why Papandreou did not resign, because there was only 3 days from his point of resignation to sort out the new Pasok government. After 3 days, the President would have had to call elections. 85.72.238.30 (talk) 03:26, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

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population estimate

the eurostat population estimate for Greece 2011 (11 329.6) is listed in the demographics page but not in the the main article. http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_PUBLIC/3-28072011-AP/EN/3-28072011-AP-EN.PDF 128.118.148.193 (talk) 21:22, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 24 January 2012

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In the middle of the opening page there is a vandalistic comment probably posted by an angry macedonian.

173.70.214.134 (talk) 03:29, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Fixed, thank you for pointing that, it should have been caught much sooner--Jac16888 ^Talk 03:33, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Parsnips Maybe but not Potatoes

The cuisine of ancient Greece by no means included potatoes. Some dishes can be traced back to ancient Greece like skordalia (a thick purée of potatoes, walnuts...

That's right, the potato wasn't known to Europe until after the Middle Ages, after the Spanish conquest of America. --85.75.185.84 (talk) 17:10, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

the name Hellas is sometimes used in English too

It isn't, hence the author's need to italicise it. It's a non-English word, like Nippon for Japan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.189.103.145 (talk) 10:11, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I would suggest that the information on the economy of Greece in this article needs to be reviewed, updated and made more objective as a matter of urgency. Khananel (talk) 12:24, 9 April 2012 (UTC)khananel 09 April 2012

Economy section

The economy section was hopelessly out of date. There was an introduction which cited mainly pre-2010 data on the economy and therefore portrayed it in a very different (and misleading) light to the current position. This was followed by the debt crisis sub-section which seemed to stop in about 2010/early 2011. I've now re-arranged the section so that it has a short introduction pointing out the severity of the current position. The pre-2010 data is useful - but it is misleading to use it as a current descriptor. I've therefore retained it but headed it "Pre-crisis economy". It probably needs further work on it. I've also added an update to the debt crisis section. DeCausa (talk)

Indeed, thank you for your work. Athenean (talk) 16:58, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Typo: "easterM mediterranean"

There is a typographical error in the last paragraph of the "Ancient History" section. It says "Easterm" Mediterranean instead of "Eastern". Thanks! 69.94.225.179 (talk) 16:51, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Political Parties

This section is outdated after the recent general elections in Greece. The article should give more space to rather new major political actors like Nikos Michaloliakos, the leader of the Greek ultra-nationalist party "Golden Dawn".--E4024 (talk) 09:59, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Nice try, but there is something called recentism. Wikipedia is not a newspaper. Besides there are new elections scheduled for June 10. Your apparent desire to portray Greece in a negative light is duly noted though. Btw, just out of curiosity, what percentage of the vote do ultra-nationalist and Islamist parties get in Turkey? Athenean (talk) 22:46, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

I have no desires to portray Greece in any way. You called me "an agressive nationalist" and I looked around for examples and found that gentleman. So you can look at him to see an "aggressive nationalist", to say the least. As I have stated before, I am neither nationalist nor aggressive. I know personalising things is not a good practice and not appreciated here but you opened the gate and I suddenly recall a concept called projection. --E4024 (talk) 23:18, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Is Cyprus part of Greece?

Quote " Greece under the Ottoman Empire

Main article: Ottoman Greece

While most of mainland Greece and the Aegean islands were under Ottoman control by the end of the 15th century, "Cyprus" and Crete remained Venetian territory and did not fall to the Ottomans until 1571 and 1670, respectively." unquote

This sentence is unacceptable. It implies that "Cyprus" is part of "Greece". (I erased the word "Cyprus" from there and somebody restored it.) Unless someone can convince the Wiki community that "Cyprus is part of Greece", that word cannot stay in that sentence of the "Greece" article. --E4024 (talk) 09:00, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't say Cyprus is part of "Greece". (It wasn't me that reverted you, btw.) There was no "Greece" as such at this time so the coverage has to be (a) based on current boundaries and (b) still needs to be fairly fluid. Asides about what was going on in the "Greek-speaking world" at the time seem to me to be legitimate e.g. earlier it mentions the spread of Christianity within the Hellenized East. For a long time, and until recently, the medieval section was about the entire Byzantine emprire and mainly about Anatolia with no mention of the Greek peninsula. That went too far, and I edited back to approximately what it is now. But there should not be a big deal about straying outside of the current political boundaries. A mention of Cyprus is justified because it's within the Greek-speaking world and its fall is relevant as a milestone of the Ottoman advance into that world - like the reference to the fall of Constantinople. The context seems appropriate: it's part of a series of facts that explain the demise of the Venetian Empire, which was a significant power in the region. At the same time, I don't care that much, and it's not a big deal if it is removed, although I have a mild preference for keeping facts (if accurate) in articles if at all possible. BUT the reason you give is connected with a POV about a modern political issue and that is unacceptable.

For f.'s sake, get it into perspective! It's just a very brief mention. No one's going to think that Greece is entitled to annex Cyprus because the Wikipedia article on Greece mentions the fall of Cyprus in 1571! The UN, having read this Wikipedia article, isn't going to revise its position. You have to remember the purpose of what we're doing here: we're providing information for a wide range of readers. How would removing this particular fact improve that? We are not (or at least should not) be positioning information to support/undermine positions in current controversies. This sort of argument makes me despair of Wikipedia, and also makes editing Wikipedia extremely boring sometimes. Disclosure: I have no personal connections with Greece, Turkey or Cyprus other than very enjoyable holidays in each of the countries. DeCausa (talk) 10:06, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

PS: if it helps the heading could change to "Ottoman Period" rather than "Greece under the Ottomans". I seem to remember there's a policy somewhere that sub-headings shouldn't simply contain/be extensions of the article title. DeCausa (talk) 10:26, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes it's this: MOS:HEADINGS. In fact, I'm going to change all the headings now to comply with it.DeCausa (talk) 12:02, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

DeCausa, no need to despair or get bored, just ignore. Athenean (talk) 19:30, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

To be honest, since I suspect DeCausa is a native English speaker, I fail to see how the sentence doesn't suggest that Cyprus was not a part of 'Greece' when the Ottomans captured it, otherwise, why would it be mentioned in the same sentence. Ottomanist (talk) 20:38, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

P.S. watch your language please, this is a voluntary duty (editing on wikipedia), no need to get frustrated. Ottomanist (talk) 20:39, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Mainly because Greece didn't exist in 1571. "Watch your language". Yes, I am a native English speaker. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are not a native English speaker and therefore don't know the colloquial nuance of "watch your language". And so I'll ignore it. But I'm afraid that your Greek conspiracy theory doesn't bode well for your contributions here...and, indeed, I see you've just been blocked for a week for it. DeCausa (talk) 20:58, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Location in Europe

The lede currently says

Although geographically located at the continent's southeast, it is generally included in Western Europe.

and prior to 18:50, 24 December 2011‎ it said

Greece...is a country in southeastern Europe.

But the map of Europe in the lede suggests that calling it southeastern Europe is geographically inaccurate. Greece is in southern Europe, midway in longitude between the eastern-most and western-most points of the continent. Duoduoduo (talk) 17:40, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Greece has always been in South-East Europe. Geographically and historically [khananel] 9 April 2012. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Khananel (talk • contribs) 12:10, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

"Western Europe" was a concept used for Greece and Turkey in the days of the Cold War; as the world and thus the European continent was divided into two politico-military camps, East and West. Today there is no justification for this use, other than in historical context.

BTW Turkey is a country on two continents, (Southeast) Europe and (Western) Asia. --E4024 (talk) 22:29, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

typo: Failed... failed

"Failed attempts by the Greek city-states of Asia Minor to overthrow Persian rule failed."

(Section "History" / Subsection "From the earliest settlements to the 3rd century B.C.")

Mat 80.200.218.62 (talk) 18:49, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Corrected. Thanks. DeCausa (talk) 18:51, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

History

Any help with finding some sources for the history section. A little clean up seems in order? Will be much appreciated! Ottomanist (talk) 23:30, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

A few wording errors

History
- Medieval Period, ".. generally thought .. previously thought." in same sentence.

Outside of these areas, a limited amount of Slavic settlement is generally thought to have occurred, although on a much smaller scale than previously thought.

Suggesting "previously believed".
- Ottoman Period, duplicates and missing words?

While Greeks in the Ionian Islands Constantinople and lived in prosperity

Word missing between "Ionian Islands Constantinople", "Ionian Islands Constantinople"
&

However in the 18th century, there arose there arose through shipping a wealthy and dispersed Greek merchant class.

- The War of Independence

The events in the north urged the Greeks in the Peloponnese in action and ..

"action" isn't a place, consider "into action"
Economy
The following line reads as if Greece has already exited the Euro because "concerns" could be read as part of the list, i.e. has led to (concerns of a ..) vs (has led to concerns of) a ..

The ongoing crisis has led to concerns of a run on the Greek banks, a forced exit from the Euro and, according to the Greek President, a "threat to our national existence".

Suggesting swapping "led to concerns" with "raised concerns" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.166.116.47 (talk) 14:42, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Section: Music, some sugestions

I would like to suggest some of Greece's most important modern composers to be mentioned in this section. I think we should include Vangelis Papathanasiou and Yianni (Yiannis Chrisomallis) as they are both born, educated and brought up in Greece and today are two of the most influential an well known composers worldwide. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.65.107.118 (talk) 21:20, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

The origin of the phrase "Be debt as Greece"

Croatian writer Giancarlo Kravar: The phrase "Be debt as Greece" has entered the history books yet 1893rd by the famous recognition of president of the Greek government Harilaos Trikupisa in Parliament: "Unfortunately, we are bankrupt." The word bankruptcy derives from the Italian "banca rotta," which means "broken table".78.2.97.91 (talk) 18:55, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

What? "Be debt as Greece" isn't even English. DeCausa (talk) 19:17, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

The words are English - it's the phrase that's incoherent! HammerFilmFan (talk) 08:27, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 30 July 2012

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In the article is written that Greece shares borders to the North with Republic of Macedonia. The UN official term is Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM). Please make that correction since wikipedia is not a political body to make statements other than recognized by UN. Thank you

Christoskas (talk) 02:17, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a non-political entity which has its own rules and guidelines for naming countries and is not under the jurisdiction of nor limited by the United Nations. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Macedonia). Dru of Id (talk) 03:11, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Final Census

http://www.statistics.gr/portal/page/portal/ESYE/BUCKET/General/NWS_CENSUS_310712_GR.pdf

population is 9.903.268

79.167.11.152 (talk) 20:07, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Corrected.Nochoje (talk) 17:44, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

According to the official data from World Bank, Greece's population is 11.304 million though, as of 2011.

http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_pop_totl&idim=country:GRC&dl=en&hl=en&q=population+greece

How did Greece lose almost 1.5 million inhabitants in the course of a year?

Is there any logical explanation for this? It is amusing! --Blamestars (talk) 05:22, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Based on my understanding of ELSAT's press release, the 9,903,268 figure is the LEGAL population of Greece and does not include any illegal imigrants or any immigrants whatsoever (legal, EU residents, etc). It only inludes Greek citizens enrolled in each Municipality/Periphery of Greece. This is what I understand, someone else can comment further. If the community thinks this figure should be changed or further explained, so be it. Nochoje (talk) 12:55, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm Greek and I live in Athens. This difference between the estimated population and the census' results has nothing to do with illegal immigrants! They cannot be included in a census either way! It's because many greek people did not participate in the census! They did not open their doors in order to answer! They did that mostly as a form of protest against the government's economical measures. So, I don't understand why they don't just mention the estimated population which is about 11.3 million and of course is the true population of the country! The 9.9 million census result is totally wrong. Even the population of Athens' Municipality is given as just 467,000! It's crazy! Until yesterday it was 800,000 and now it decreased so much in a matter of days? As I said there was no cooperation by many people so the census failed! I hope they write back again the true population which is the estimated one. (Grecus_magnus) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.167.67.226 (talk) 16:55, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

The cited number for the total number of inhabitants (9,903,268) is actually not the number we need for the Wiki-article. The table that was presented 31 July gives the de jure population, whatever that means. (My guess is that it only counts Greek citizens.) What we are waiting for is the final numbers of the resident population, that is the number of people actually living in Greece. This table is expected to be presented some time this year, but nothing more precise has been said. The provisional number given so far, is 10,787,690. It would be wise to wait for the final results in order to update Wikipedia! Regards! --79.160.40.10 (talk) 18:12, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

HDI update

The infobox states that the HDI in Greece is "very high". Doesn't this need an update considering the economin crisis in that country? Pass a Method talk 21:43, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Um, no, it's still listed as "very high" by the UN. Until it changes in the UN report, it stays like this here. Athenean (talk) 21:49, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Of course not. Greece remains a country with a "very high" Human Development, despite the recent economic crisis. Nochoje (talk) 14:43, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Edit Request

As I look at the image for the Greece Debt, I see they have $161 in debt, Do I get paid interest if I pay that off for them? lol jk. I believe an increment indicator (millions, billions, trillions) should be added to clarify.

Western Europe?

It is a historical category, from the Cold War era. The supplied source of 1966 was good for its time. Today it is time to put every country in its unique geographic place again. --E4024 (talk) 21:36, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Does anybody know when that ridiculous reference to "politically...western Europe" was sneaked into the lead sentence? The only sense in which "western Europe" even constitutes a political unit, let alone one of which Greece is part, is that of the Cold War, which simply no longer exists today. The place where Greece is is called south-eastern Europe. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:26, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree. I think that the sourced reference to "western Europe" may, as has already been said, be an anachronistic Cold War reference or it is WP:FRINGE. I certainly don't think it is common or usual in the English-speaking world to consider Greece "politically Western European". I think we need to be careful to distinguish this from being part of "the West" in the global sense, which of course it is. Maybe that was what the editor who put it in thought he was saying.DeCausa (talk) 08:55, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Absolutely agree. It was added to the article on Christmas Eve, at that time in an even stronger form. --79.160.40.10 (talk) 09:21, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

@Future Perfect: Also with some toe-holds on Asia: The islands in the eastern Aegean and the island of Meis in southeastern Mediterranean certainly belong to the Anatolian peninsula / or the subcontinent of "Asia Minor"... --E4024 (talk) 09:27, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Anatolian tragedy

Per this comment and the discussion below, I've decided to close this RfC early, since there no longer appears to be a dispute. Gabbe (talk) 20:50, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I edited the part related to Greece's expansionist occupation of western Anatolia but my edit was reverted as "PoV pushing" when the only thing I was trying to do was to remove Greek nationalist POV from the article. For those who do not know very well, Greece occupied part of western Turkey in 1919, and caused a war between the two countries. As there was no reason other than expansionism for the Greek occupation and it was not provoked by any Turkish action, this was a micro-imperialist invasion. The Turks did nothing but only try to defend and recover their territory. Please look into the relevant part in the article and if you do not get the impression that it is the Turks' fault that Greece began an expansionist war and lost it, do not change the current edit as it is after my edition was reverted. --E4024 (talk) 16:32, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Much of this territory was heavily populated by Greeks, in case you didn't know that. But anyway I am satisfied with Future Perfect's edit, so this is closed as far as I'm concerned. Athenean (talk) 17:05, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

E4024, you really need to calm down. I agree the original wording was misleading but it really was premature jumping to an RfC after one revert and no talk page discussion. I think FuturePerfect's edit is good, seems to satisfy Athenean and,IMHO, should satisfy you. Furthermore heading this unnecessary RfC "Anatolian tragedy" is not helpful. DeCausa (talk) 19:51, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, can we just close this RfC thing? I think all parties have indicated they are okay with the current wording, so the issue of this particular sentence should be solved now. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:06, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Shouldn't this mention corruption as a major component of Greek culture?

Numerous commentators including journalist Michael Lewis have pointed out that corruption is a major component of Greek culture. Shouldn't that be in this article?

Journalists are free to believe whatever they want. Corruption is very high in Italy (its evidenced to be almost as high as in Greece), and other Mediterranean countries. But can the cultures of those countries also be blamed for the causes of corruption? Of course not. Corruption is mostly irrelevant to the culture of a nation or a region. It is clearly a political phenomenon, not a cultural characteristic. State corruption increases when political systems are not fighting it, and decreases when strong anti-corruption measures are taken. In the case of Greece, Bulgaria, Italy and other countries in the region, the politicians never showed a strong dedication to fight corruption in past. As a result, those countries today enjoy poor economies and are facing financial difficulties. Again I repeat: this has nothing to do with the actual culture of each nation. I hear many things from the journalists, and my advice to you: don't take them seriously. Journalists are humans after all, they may say things that are not true or correct. A good and reliable journalist could dig deeper in his research and find the actual roots of the corruption, rather than accusing generally a culture for the causes of the corruption. --85.75.147.183 (talk) 06:45, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Intro and Economic crisis

At the end of the intro, it states: " Since late 2009, the Greek economy has been hit by a severe economic and financial crisis resulting in the Greek government requesting €240 billion in loans from EU institutions, a substantial debt write-off, and unpopular austerity measures". This was edited a couple of months ago by a user and I am surprised that this just came up. The aforementioned statement is 100% true. However it should not be on the lead. For two main reasons: The first reason is that NO OTHER country in crisis (Its not just Greece in crisis its also Spain, Portugal, Italy among others) has similar style in the intro. The intro is not about the crisis, it's there to give an introduction to the country. Greece, despite the crisis remains a country among the top in the world in regards to human development and quality of life. That's what is mentioned usually in the intro for all other similar countries. Now we have devoted a huge section (in my opinion its really too huge indeed and editing is required) about the Crisis. There is even a dedicated article for it. It's at least useless to put it in the intro AS WELL. If however a user wants to keep it, then he/she should also edit in a relevant way Spain, Portugal, Italy and why not Ireland articles as well. Nochoje (talk) 16:42, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

I am a little astonished that anyone would challenge reference to the economic crisis in this lead. A couple of preliminary points: (1) "This was edited a couple of months ago by a user and I am surprised that this just came up." This was first introduced by me five months ago. It followed my updating of the economy section which had become hopelessly out of date - see this Talk page thread. It was subsequently modified by other editors. As it's been there for 5 months and has undergone editing, per WP:CONSENSUS it clearly has consensus support. It's not the case that it has recently been slipped in and only just been noticed. (2) What is in the Spain and Portugal articles is no precedent for what's in this article for two reasons. Firstly, each country needs to be looked at in its own circumstances. Spain and Portugal do not have the same circumstances as Greece. Secondly, because of that Wikipedia, as a matter of policy, treats each article separately see, for instance, WP:OTHERSTUFF. If Spain and Portugal are defective in not including references to the crisis in their leads (and I'm making no comment as to whether that is so), that is no grounds for making this article defective as well.

Moving on to the real issue: the economic crisis in Greece is not only massively important to Greece it is massively important to the Eurozone. It clearly is a dominant feature in understanding Greece at the moment as well as a key part in understanding the EU's most difficult challenge. It needs to be a very substantial part of this article because it is a very substantial aspect of Greece today. You say that there is too much on it in the article. That is quite an extraordinary statement. The Economy section is currently inadequate: there is far too much describing the pre-2009 and not enough post 2009. I updated it in May as best I could (it kind of stopped at late 2010/early 2011 at that point) as a stop-gap solution but the whole Economy section really needs a thorough re-write to reflect today's position properly. Then turning to the lead, per WP:LEAD it is inconceivable to me that the lead does not contain a sentence (only one sentence!) on something which has put Greece regularly as the top item of global news reports for the last two years and is such a major feature of understanding Greece today. DeCausa (talk) 18:53, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Your thoughts are pretty logical as logical as is that because this is your edit, you want to support it till the end. Although I disagree that "Spain and Portugal do not have the same circumstances" (actually Spain, being a bigger country has much worse circumstances if this continues the wrong way), the problem of placing "economic crisis" on the lead is quite simple: It exaggerates and repeats something that it is explained in detail (there is a dedicated article for this). It reminds me of when BBC or other media, over-react and exaggerate by saying that "Athens is burning" when in fact there used to be a few clashes in a square measuring 100 meters by 100 meters. It is the same exaggeration when people asked if there is "food on the shelves" in Greek supermarkets when in reality the cafes are full throughout the day and life in Greece more or less is pretty much the same. By adding this stuff in the lead, we over-do it, just like the BBC or CNN over-reacts. The only difference is that Wikipedia has no advertisement :)...Nochoje (talk) 19:35, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

The issue is simple. The lead is a summary that should 'define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points'. The lead can't touch on every important issue for a given topic. That's what the rest of the article is for. If a crisis that threatens the very existence of the Euro isn't considered important enough to mention in the lead of the other involved nations and the EU itself, than it doesn't belong in Greece's lead. If it does and the other articles are 'defective', then mention should be added to all their leads.
the economic crisis in Greece is not only massively important to Greece it is massively important to the Eurozone.
Well, that's an issue for the Eurozone article.
—Sowlos (talk) 20:55, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

@Nochoje. I don't understand you first sentence. Could you clarify what you mean. The rest of your post is directed towards saying that the severity of the crisis is exaggerated: "By adding this stuff in the lead, we over-do it, just like the BBC or CNN over-reacts." Well, sorry yes, that is exactly Wikipedia's job: we must present it just as the reliable sources such as BBC and CNN present it, not as you Nochoje think it should be presented based on your own experiences. That is original research and we don't allow that.

@Sowlos. Maybe mention should be added to the other leads but that's not an issue for this Talk page.(I referred to the importance to the Eurozone because it demonstrates its overall significance as being not only domestic.) The fact is the economic crisis is the primary important economic (and political) feature of Greece at the moment. Of, at least, equal significance to the the other economic data in the lead. If that is removed and the other economic information is left in it then it doesn't reflect the article content as well as the actual situation.

DeCausa (talk) 21:22, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

I removed it per WP:RECENTISM and WP:NPOV. Also as I wrote in my edit summary: "Again, this is a country article. As such recent crises do not belong in the lead but in the body. Phrasing is too detailed + POV and ignores the other European countries" In other words there are additional problems with the edit other than recentism. The phraseology is POV, "hit with economic crisis"? This is a non-technical, unencyclopaedic description. There are also too many details for the lead. In addition I don't buy the WP:OTHERCRAP exists justification. This is a global crisis and ignoring the other countries is downright economic POV against Greece. For instance here we have the 2011–2012 Spanish protests, ongoing protests about the Spanish economic crisis now going strong for a year and also called the Spanish revolution but no mention of the stuff on the lead of Spain. Revolution? What's that? No big deal. Why mention a 21st century Spanish revolution in the article about Spain? Let's just concentrate on Greece and pretend that Spain and other Eurozone countries don't experience similar crises and forget about any mention of these crises in the lead of the other countries. It is as if PIIGGS does not exist. No, it's only Greece. Nobody else. What economic crisis? Everything is good. Now let's advertise it at the lead of the article on Greece, including all the minute number details while making sure that we avoid any mention of a larger crisis and even more preciously making sure that no other European country's article mentions anything like that on their leads while suppressing even revolutions. If only Greece didn't blow the whole European economy there would be no crisis. Is this any way of writing an NPOV article? Let's get serious. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 04:26, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

This is getting silly. It has nothing to do with denigrating Greece. What goes on in the other articles is not a subject for this Talk page. I have no desire and I am not part of any conspiracy to put Greece in a "bad" light and let Portugal and Spain "off". How can it possibly be "downright economic POV against Greece". That really is an unacceptable accusation which I would like you to withdraw. I happen not to edit those countries pages as I tend only to edit Balkan and mid-east country articles - not because I have any connection with those regions but because I have an interest in their history which has morphed into the country articles. My contribs will demonstrate that. If this discussion is going to be at this sort of level then this is not going to be a constructive discussion. This is is a very simple question: is the economic crisis of at least as great a significance as the 2010 economic data that is currently in the lead? The answer to any body who is neutral is that it obviously does. Does this require an RfC?

I have to say I am extremely disappointed in what appears to be an emotional rather than a NPOV response to this. I am equally disappointed that Dr. K has reverted the edit while it is currently being discussed. No matter how strongly the feelings, there is no reason to ignore normal Wikipedia processes and policies. DeCausa (talk) 11:12, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes of course. Play the "emotional" card against your opponent so that your arguments can prevail. This is a very unpleasant tactic and I hope you realise that. And spare me the talk of withdrawing my comments. If you do not realise that your actions, isolating the economic problems of Greece from the exact same problems the other PIIGGS countries face, amounts to economic POV against Greece, then this is your problem unfortunately and not mine. And to quote you: there is no reason to ignore normal Wikipedia processes and policies. I removed this blatant POV from the lead of the article exactly for the purpose of following normal NPOV, WP:UNDUE policies and making the article conform to higher encyclopaedic standards. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 12:09, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm not going to respond to that sort of unnecessary personal attack. DeCausa (talk) 12:20, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I am not responding to your comment either because I view it for myself the same way you view my comment for yourself. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 12:26, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, we're doing a lot of responding that we're not going to respond to each other :) DeCausa (talk) 12:34, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Indeed! A rare point of agreement. :) Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 15:49, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Not sure that something which is still relatively recent should be mentioned in the lede. While each article is indeed unique, I don't see anything similar for most other countries, with the exception of Iceland. Athenean (talk) 03:24, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Wording for an RfC

RFC proposal closed following discussion

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

RFC proposal closed following discussion. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 18:43, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I'd like to agree wording for an RfC. I suggest as follows:

"RfC: Should the lead contain a reference to the economic crisis?

The lead for the article Greece contained the following sentence for the last 5 months until it was recently deleted: "Since late 2009, the Greek economy has been hit by a severe economic and financial crisis resulting in the Greek government requesting €240 billion in loans from EU institutions, a substantial debt write-off, and unpopular austerity measures." This was the only reference to the Greek economic crisis in the lead. Should the lead contain any reference to the Greek economic crisis? If it should contain a reference to it, should it be the above wording or other wording, if so what?"

Comments please. DeCausa (talk) 11:22, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Unacceptable. See my comments above. And the reason I did not delete this blatant POV from the article earlier is that, believe it or not, I never read this article in detail. I just glance at it. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 12:04, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

What is unacceptable? The wording or the fact of the RFC. If it is the wording, can you suggest an alternative please. Just to be clear: this is a proposal to agree the wording of the question to be asked (in accordance with RFC best practice) not the RFC itself. DeCausa (talk) 12:11, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Obviously the wording and the inclusion of this piece at the article. I will not propose an alternate wording until or if the other PIIGGS articles also include similar passages at the lead. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 12:26, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

No, that's not what this is!!! I'm going to launch an RfC. To do so, a question with neutral wording is to be asked. I'm checking that those who oppose me agree that the question is neutrally expressed. It's not about the wording to go in the article or whether it should be in the article. DeCausa (talk) 12:32, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Unacceptable as well. I fully agree with Dr.K and also with Sowlos. No reference whatsoever should be made to the lead of this article in regards to the "economic crisis" for the reasons dsecribed above. Nochoje (talk) 12:35, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

No, no, no. This isn't about the main issue! This is about whether the wording for the question is neutral ONLY. Can you pleae both check WP:RFC before posting again. DeCausa (talk) 12:38, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Ok. Give me some time to think about it but I am a bit busy at the moment. Thank you. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 15:49, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I struck the part that should be left out and I highlighted my proposed wording. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 17:23, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I've moved your proposal down to here and restored my so the differences can be seen:

"RfC: Should the lead of all so-affected countries (PIIGGS) contain a reference to the economic crisis?

The lead for the article Greece contained the following sentence for the last 5 months until it was recently deleted: "Since late 2009, the Greek economy has been hit by a severe economic and financial crisis resulting in the Greek government requesting €240 billion in loans from EU institutions, a substantial debt write-off, and unpopular austerity measures." This was the only reference to the Greek economic crisis in the lead. Should the lead contain any reference to the ~~Greek~~ [placeholder country] economic crisis? If it should contain a reference to it, what should the wording be?~~it be the above~~ ~~or other wording, if so what?~~"

I don't see how that can work since RfC's are article based. The nearest I've seen is the naming issue for the Anti- and Pro-Abortion articles where there were parallel RfCs in each of the two articles. What you would have to do, I think, is post an RfC worded specifically for each country on each of the countries talk pages. But you really need to find out first whether there is any objection to amending the lead as you would want. So you would need to go through the process of checking each article then if the issue hasn't been raised, amending the article, get reverted, take it to the talk page see if there's support and then raise the RfC...but I'm guessing. Also, that's raising a different question to the one I raised (which is fair enough) rather changing my question for nutrality. I think we would raise the questions separately. The basic point, of course, is what goes on in one article can't dictate the consensus and approach in another. DeCausa (talk) 17:35, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I understand that each article has to have a separate consensus but perhaps we can have a centralised discussion somewhere to avoid POV by omission. That was my intention in the first place. It would be utterly POV to isolate and target this article's lead without somehow centralising it for the other PIIGGS countries. Also in any case I think the phrase: contained the following sentence for the last 5 months until it was recently deleted. must go because how long the edit remained is of no relevance to the RFC. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 18:42, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I accept the removal of the 5 months. As far as the rest, I don't know whether that's possible technically: I've only ever seen article based RfC's. I would oppose it as a question in place of the question I am proposing, but I have no objection to it as an additional question - but I don't know how it can be asked. I'll ask at the Helpdesk. DeCausa (talk) 19:28, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

That's fair enough. I'll accept their verdict whichever way it goes. Thank you very much. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 19:31, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Simple wording as a conditional compromise.

Simply worded - In an attempt to not burden the lead with WP:RECENTISM, still give mention to a years long pan-European issue, and not use the potentially insulting 'PIIGGS' phrase, there could be brief mention Greece's economic troubles that links to the economy section and the debt crisis article. Like so:
Since 2009, Greece has been hard hit by the European sovereign-debt crisis.
The condition - I disagree that Greece should be discussed separately from the other affected nations. Wikipedia should seek to be consistent across articles. This discussion should move to WikiProject Europe, reframed as a PIIGGS-wide issue, to establish how to handle this issue equally and consistently amongst all affected nations. My suggestion should only be applied here based on such a consensus there.

—Sowlos (talk) 13:34, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I also agree with your condition and with the reasons you bring forward to support it. Your idea of discussing it at WP:WikiProject Europe is a very good one. I firmly believe that because of the widespread phenomenon of the debt crisis with its deep social, political, international and economic dimensions, isolating the article of Greece and not informing the other articles similarly, in and of itself is an act of sociopolitical and economic POV. I also propose to modify your proposed text as follows:
Since 2009, Greece, along with Ireland, Italy, Spain and Portugal and to a lesser extent Great Britain, has been hard hit by the European sovereign-debt crisis.
I added the highlighted text to provide the proper balance and context to this phenomenon and not make it appear as if Greece is the only country affected by it. And don't worry; I used the term PIIGS only informally and for clarification purposes. Believe me I was not about to add it to the article. :) Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 14:22, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm fine with that addition as long as there are no strong objections to it. Also, I'd like to add that WikiProject European Union may be better than WikiProject Europe for this issue.
—Sowlos (talk) 15:06, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't see why anyone would object to the factual statement that shows that Greece is not the only country suffering the effects of the crisis. I am however open to removing Great Britain if the effects of the crisis are not as strong there. Also the EU project is an even better choice. Thank you. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 15:39, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree with both of you and that was by initial concern in the first place to force me to start this discussion. Whatever it is decided it must treat the economic crisis as it really is, i.e. spread across the countries Greece, Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Spain (and even Great Britain) or even across the whole Eurozone as we start to realize. We must have consistency and it is not acceptable to treat Greece as a special case as if Greece is the only country in the middle of the crisis. This impression was clearly given when someone adds in the lead references about the economic crisis and its "severity". Also let me point out that this wrong impressions is STILL given if you carefully see how the article about Greece is structured in regards to the Economy chapter. There is a pretty big paragraph on the economic (fiscal) crisis, where for similar countries like Portugal or Spain the references in the economic crisis for these countries are minimal. I think this gives again the wrong impression about the real magnitude of this crisis.Nochoje (talk) 15:49, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

You are making some excellent points. I also believe you when you say that: There is a pretty big paragraph on the economic (fiscal) crisis, where for similar countries like Portugal or Spain the references in the economic crisis for these countries are minimal.. The thing is, as I said above, I don't read this article in its entirety. I just glance at it. And do you know the reason? I don't bear reading POV like the one you just mentioned. On the other hand now that we know about it let's try to fix this glaring inconsistency. Thank you. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 16:02, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Because of Real Life commitments I won't be involved in Wikipedia for a while and will therefore withdraw from this. As I was the only one advocating my position, the rest of you can do as you wish. My last comment is that sources throughout the world, outside of Greece that is, regard what is happening/happened to Greece (and Iceland) as a different order of magnitude to the impact on the other countries. That may well not remain the case as the drama unfolds in Spain and perhaps Italy, but that is the position as it is today. It's a fundamental principle based on WP:RS that Wikipedia is not the place to correct injustices of perception (real or imaginary) but I don't think that principle is of any interest to you sadly. DeCausa (talk) 18:27, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

The sad thing here is that you presume to know what my principles are or what my interest is. This, I know you know that, is not a good approach to have toward your fellow editors and is insulting. But here I will quote someone else at the help desk where you went for advice regarding this RFC: Multi-article RfC and an editor replied to you thus:

That smacks of recentism and undue weight. How significant is the current event in the context of the thousands of years of history of Greece - or the other countries. It's just a single ripple in the timeline.

This is an uninvolved editor at the help desk yet he encapsulated the essence of my arguments better than I ever exposed here. You should try to learn something from this instead of making personal comments about my motives. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 18:41, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I replied to that post. It's as recentist as citing the latest available GDP. Anyway, I'm done here. I doubt our paths will cross again - this and other recent experiences have taught me that when I come back to WP I'm taking the Greece and Turkey related articles of my watchlist. It's not a constructive area of WP for a neutral to be involved in. DeCausa (talk) 19:01, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Nothing like a parting barb about neutrality to tar the opponent. What can I say other than I am disappointed about the quality of these tactics and to tell you the truth I did not expect them from you, at least at this level of persistence. Meanwhile I am still trying to remove the tar from my shoes and with a little bit of luck and an industrial-strength solvent I may just get lucky enough to remove it. By the way "neutrality" based on background, nationality or ethnic origin is just a myth. I am not Irish, for example, but does that alone guarantee my neutrality toward Ireland-related articles? Absolutely not. So please don't use the neutrality-based-on- background argument. It's useless and many other things but I will not elaborate further. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 20:29, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Since we are on the topic of neutrality based on ethnic origin, perhaps another example would help: Let's consider the article on Germany and related topics. According to the ethnicity argument, Germans must not edit German topics because they are, well, German and therefore non-neutral. However Germans also have recently pissed off most of Europe due to their fiscal policies related to the eurozone. So that automatically disqualifies most, if not all, European nationalities as prospective neutral editors of Germany-related topics. The African nations are mistrustful of any Westerners due to their colonialist policies in the past and Germany is no exception; that precludes any editors from Africa. The Americans and the Europeans were at war with Germany in WWII so definitely they cannot be trusted to neutrally edit these articles either, especially WWII-related articles. In addition the Americans don't like the eurozone that much and that's an additional negative toward their Germany-related neutrality. Forget about the Brits. So the question arises, if background is a valid criterion for neutrally editing articles, who can be safely allowed to neutrally edit German topics? Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 02:20, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Let us all avoid personal attacks, please.
—Sowlos (talk) 12:58, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Are you in any way referring to my comments? Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 13:32, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Partly. I apreciate your need to defend yourself, but that's the problem with personal attacks. They create self-perpetuating cycles that need not always be fed with outright attacks after they start, but always draw the discussion off-topic.
Back to the intended subject of this thread: I've brought this to WP:EU, as per my suggestion. DeCausa (talk · contribs) may have withdrawn, but the issue is still not quite resolved.
—Sowlos (talk) 14:25, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

No I don't think you do. If someone tells me quote: but I don't think that principle is of any interest to you sadly. and then I reply to them quote: The sad thing here is that you presume to know what my principles are or what my interest is. This, I know you know that, is not a good approach to have toward your fellow editors and is insulting. This is not a personal attack. It is a civil and factual statement and I simply exercised my natural right to factually respond to spurious allegations. I will not further analyse my extremely civil responses in a similar fashion because I think that any fair-minded person can see that they are fair, civilised and to the point. However I would like you to retract your statement that I made personal attacks because it is misguided, insulting and unfair. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 16:04, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

To direct an criticism at an editor, as opposed to the content of their edits or propositions, is by definition an attack on a person (argumentum ad hominem).
There are several examples of such throughout this discussion.
One does not need to engage in abusive personal attacks to continue the cycle created by personal attacks. It is a tit for tat phenomenon with rising and falling levels of agression.
Statements such as I don't think that principle is of any interest to you sadly
followed by the sad thing here is that you presume to know what my principles are
followed by I'm done here. ... It's not a constructive area of WP for a neutral to be involved in
followed by I am disappointed about the quality of these tactics (et cetera)
perfectly exemplify this cycle and its propensity to never end.
Stating the facts are not enough in human communication. How one says it is equally important.
All have the right to defend themselves against attacks and correct mischaracterizations, as I said before, but this must not become the focus of an otherwise unrelated discussion lest others (involved or looking on) be dissuaded from participating in the future.

I have said all I am going to say on this subject. The purpose of this thread is to discuss the validity of mentioning the sovereign-debt crisis in the lead, nothing more. I have moved the question to the relevant WikiProjects and we will see if anyone else has anything to say. I still support my possitions above, but an important issue was sill raised and I would like to see it fully settled.
—Sowlos (talk) 19:08, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't need lectures on conversational dynamics from you. The fact remains that you want me to submit to a code of discussion which conforms to your distorted sense of what a civil response is. This will not happen. I realise that you want me to artificially and superficially suppress my arguments to please your social ear. I find this ridiculous. By the way criticising a fellow editor about civility without good reason is in itself an uncivil act. I have no time for your haughty attitude. I asked you to retract your offensive criticism and all you did was to give me a long lecture on BS. I have no time for this garbage. I am finished with you here. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:02, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Social consequences of the economic crisis

This report which shows the social dimensions of the Greek Economic Crisis could be useful to understand better the situation and also to expand the relevant section of this article as well as the one on Greek government debt crisis. --E4024 (talk) 22:57, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

This proves exactly what I've been saying all along. Over-reaction and exaggeration. The situation is Greece is NOT reflected by a Daily Mail article about increased suicides. Have there been more suicides since the crisis started? Possibly yes. Are these suicides an "epidemic" because of the crisis. NO! Greece remains a country with some of the lowest rates of suicides in the Western World. And thats from official statistics, not Daily Mail articles. By the way, the article from Daily Mail is so much "credible" that a photo actually from Egypt (!!) is used to describe "Greeks protesting on the streets"...Pathetic! Is this the kind of information we want to include in Wikipedia?Nochoje (talk) 12:41, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Maybe the Greek Minister of Health, when saying that the suicides increased 40%, in the first months of 2011 in relation to those months of the year 2010 and that "they were related to the financial crisis" was not exaggerating like the press. Here BTW he uses the term "financial crisis" like a considerable part of the international press. --E4024 (talk) 14:33, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Are we going to start including suicide rates in country articles? This is more for sociological studies and related articles, not country articles. For example, the suicide rate of Turkey is higher than that of Greece, even with Turkey's booming economy. Should we include that in the article about Turkey? Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 01:37, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

@Nochoje and Dr. K: WP:DNFTT, please. There is absolutely no need or reason to engage. Fairly obvious what is going on here. Athenean (talk) 03:19, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Recent edit warring between Avaya1 and Nochoje

This is a warning to both Avaya1 (talk · contribs) and Nochoje (talk · contribs): you both need to stop revert-warring, now. If I see any more reverts from either of you, before you have worked towards a consensus here at talk, you are both off to WP:AN3, where it is very likely that both of you will end up blocked. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:25, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

I think that it is at least unfair, to put me in the same position with Avaya1 (talk · contribs), when this user started reverting without consensus, a status which had received consensus and even more he/she didn't take it to the talk page when I repeatedly asked for it and advised him/her so. I really dont understand where exactly my fault is. I think it is totally unfair. I am not the one who should bring this in the talk page under discussion, because I am not the one who started the edit war.Nochoje (talk) 15:23, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, this is exactly the point: you could, and should, have initiated a discussion on this page just as well as Avaya1. It takes two to edit-war, and in this particular case neither of the two preferred versions is self-evidently the more correct or more consensus-based one compared to the other. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:35, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Animal Welfare in Greece

There are many references on the web at large to disturbing mistreatment of animals in Greece. While I'm sure this happens in every country, it seems to be particularly bad in Greece. Can this be addressed? 99.44.245.45 (talk) 09:48, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Searching the web is not exactly the most dependable way of discovering in which countries animal abuse is particularly bad. There is no way to gauge severity or factuality pertaining to an issue based on Google hits. Addressing any issue is contingent upon the presence of reliable sources.
One must also tackle differing definitions of cruelty to animals, pest control, hunting, etcetera. Animal rights touches on this.
Unless cruelty to animals were a major issue in the outline of Greece, this would be better covered in one of the articles dedicated to animal abuse and neglect.

—Sowlos (talk) 11:48, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

New section for Greek contributions to engineering, science, and mathematics

It would be nice to include contributions to engineering, scientific and mathematical knowledge developed in Greece since it plays such a large role in Greek identity. This can include the development of navigational systems, such as longitude and latitude; optics, trogonometry, Euclidean geometry, the Antikythera mechanism, and so on. At present there is no easy means of finding this information from its root (Greece) and one must instead navigate to articles such as Timeline of historic inventions or delve through articles such as Ancient Greece. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kupraios (talk • contribs) 03:07, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

What is the political situation in Greece involving the rising support for Golden Dawn and ultranationalists? Is it significant enough to be mentioned on sections on the country's politics?

There has been a lot of speculation and analysis amongst Western media that Greece is in severe civil unrest that are moving towards civil war tendencies involving Golden Dawn squads attacking immigrant communities and people who look foreign, and a general violent atmosphere in the country with various groups becoming increasingly militant. Some claim that 50 to 60 percent of Greece's police support the Golden Dawn. I would like to hear from Greek users whether these claims are substantiated or not. If they are, then this is a major political issue in Greece that needs to be described in this article.--R-41 (talk) 03:17, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Media tend to be sensationalist, and we should avoid WP:RECENTism. Yes, a large part of the police force supports or at least does not bother Golden Dawn, but if there was an election today, the left would get over 50% and Golden Dawn under 10%. Golden Dawn made gains because it usurped the role of the too-negligent state in tackling massive illegal immigration and because the previous populist-nationalist party, LAOS, entered the government and supported the bailout package, but their actions over the past few months have not endeared them to many. Greece is a society in a deep crisis that has been building up for over a decade, but despite the frequent comparison it is not Weimar Germany. It did not lose a war, there are no paramilitary formations, no armed clashes in the streets (violent protests are another thing and sort of a tradition hereabouts), the prevailing culture is left-oriented/liberal rather than conservative or reactionary (during my national service in the Army, I saw professional NOCs who voted for Golden Dawn get ridiculed by most of their colleagues), there has been no tradition of authoritarian government for over a generation, and the country does not exist in a vacuum: as we saw most clearly in the June elections, other countries meddle in its politics. Yes, the article should probably have something to say about the collapse of the middle class, corruption, clientelism, excessive individualism and self-centredness of the average Greek, the role of the state and the elites it props up, etc. If things continue to go downhill, all cards are off, but at the moment "civil war" is not very likely, in any sober assessment of the situation. Constantine ✍ 09:38, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

And add to it the constant militarization of the country (see removed edits from the military section)... --E4024 (talk) 13:32, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Sure. Just pick the one metric (GMI) where Greece looks worse than Turkey in military expenditures and include it just for this country alone. Also sexy-up its place on that selective metric by calling it "top 10 in the world", instead of the rather boring and dry but precise "9th" place. What a great idea. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 19:26, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

I try to ignore certain category of users in WP and avoid interacting with them. I am already quite accustomed to their distortion of facts, among other negative attitudes, but would feel bad if other users are mislead due to my pride if I stay silent as I generally do. So only for the sake of respect to reality I have to remind that the words "Top 10" belong to the source, the Global Militarization Index (GMI) report (p. 14) of the Bonn International Center for Conversion (BICC). I have no idea if those words make a country look better or worse but a reference to a third country in this discussion is totally out of place. On the other hand, the thread is not about my -I have no idea why- "reverted" addition to the article but about the socio-economic and political situation of Greece. (The militarization of Greece could certainly be related to that.) --E4024 (talk) 20:02, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Please cease your heavy-handed allusions to "distortions" by other users. Your edit was:

On a per capita level, Greece is among the "Top 10" of the Global Militarization Index<ref>http://www.bicc.de/uploads/tx_bicctools/BICC_Jahresbericht_2012_en_LR.pdf</ref> according to the 2012 Report of the BICC.

The source never said anything like that because it did not have any word description. It was just a table. You put these words as your interpretation of the table. The source never said anything about "per capita" or that "Greece is among" anything. In fact I went to the pdf cited and did a search and there is no mention of "per capita" in the whole document. Even in the List of countries by Global Militarization Index there is no mention of "per capita". All of this is original research and synthesis from a primary source and most probably it is wrong because the connection with "per capita" is nonexistent. Original research is by definition distortion. Selectively picking GMI and not other indices on which Greece is lower than other countries makes this distortion worse by not providing proper context and it is utterly misleading and unencyclopaedic. So I don't agree with your statement but a reference to a third country in this discussion is totally out of place.. And you have to forgive me for replying to it but you mentioned that your edit was reverted at this thread. In addition your references to your pride and how you avoid interacting with "certain users" are clearly out of place in this collaborative environment. I left you yesterday three polite, friendly, helpful and important messages [1] [2] [3] on your talk which you summarily dismissed within minutes and with no edit-summaries. And you are talking about negative attitudes on my part. I hope you can see the irony. And there is already a military-expenditure metric in the article: Greece spends over 9 billion US Dollars every year on its military, or 3.2% of GDP, ranked 20th in the world. But I guess that was not good enough for you. You had to add another one making the "top ten" claim. In contrast Turkey's article has no mention whatsoever of any military expenditure index. Why don't you try to improve that article instead? At least Greece's article already has a metric. Your current comments about your pride and how you ignore certain category of users in WP and avoid interacting with them is just additional indications of your continuously insulting attitude toward those users and your refusal to engage in proper collaboration without throwing insults or blame at others. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 20:53, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

@E4024: I've not interacted with you before, but I've seen you and your edits around, and unfortunately there's a clear pattern to them. Seriously, stop trying so hard to "prove" that Greece is another "evil empire"... Because last time I was in Turkey, people were discussing seriously whether Greek islands lying off shore would fall to Turkey if they became uninhabited due to the crisis, and when I served in the army, I regularly saw Turkish warplanes on my radar screen off Cape Sounion. And last time I checked, we didn't have SRBMs either... So even if Greece was as highly militarized as you claim, you should probably know well enough why that was the case. Constantine ✍ 23:41, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

E4204, please do not remove this comment, unless you are prepared to remove the entire "militarization" discussion. The examples I gave are there to show to anyone unfamiliar with our hospitable little neighbourhood exactly why Greece spends that much money on defence (although with the crisis, that too is a thing of the past)... Constantine ✍ 11:55, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

As far as your comment: (The militarization of Greece could certainly be related to that.) Citation needed for that. I am not interested in your speculation about nonexistent phenomena. First find me an article from a non-aligned reliable source about the "militarisation of Greece" and then perhaps we can talk. On the other hand for the past seventy years, militarised or not, Greece has never invaded any of its neighbours, neither has Cyprus, another of the "top ten" on your list. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 00:36, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

You just violated talkpage guidelines WP:TPO by removing Kostas' comments. I suggest you read the part where it says: The basic rule—with some specific exceptions outlined below—is that you should not edit or delete the comments of other editors without their permission. Aside from Talkpage guidelines, removing others' comments is insulting and indicates bad manners to do so. In addition per WP:EDITSUMMARY do not keep using the edit summary field to demean other editors. As I told you on your talk (and you reverted my edit within a minute) accusing other editors on the edit-summary field is a misuse of the edit-summary function and it is an unfair and underhanded way to message people because unlike normal discussion it cannot be erased and it cannot be responded to by the accused party except by using the edit-summary field again, which is not proper. I already told you that on your talkpage before but you chose to delete my message and ignore it. I just hope you don't do this again. Also read WP:REVTALK: Avoid using edit summaries to carry on debates or negotiation over the content or to express opinions of the other users involved. This creates an atmosphere where the only way to carry on discussion is to revert other editors!. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 13:29, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Panathenaic_Stadium. This stadium is not a replica.

Dear editors i was hoping someone would correct the comment about the Panathenaic_Stadium being a replica. This stadium is an genuine ancient stadium which was restored to its former glory for the first Modern Olympic games in 1896. This stadium is not a modern replica. at this point i can only give you the relevant article in wiki, but im sure now that i brought this to your attention someone can find more information. http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Panathenaic_Stadium

Many thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.99.81.48 (talk) 14:15, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Population - December 2012

"Preliminary census data 2011"? Please update. --E4024 (talk) 19:02, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

The final data has not been released yet. Supposed to come before the end of the year. --79.160.40.10 (talk) 19:13, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Land borders

From the lead of the article: "Greece has land borders with Albania, the Republic of Macedonia and Bulgaria to the north, and Turkey to the east." I corrected this edit, a few days ago, by adding "north" before "east" as one can clearly see at the provided map that Greece and Turkey have common land border at the northeast of Greece (and northwest of Turkey). I am accustomed to be reverted for "contributor instead of contribution" but this edit of mine was so clearly correct that even I was very surprised with that reaction. Maybe that editor was confused because s/he is accustomed to seeing Turkey to the east of Greece due to the Greek islands at the shores of Turkey. (However, if we looked at Turkey from one of those islands, the Meis, we could easily say Turkey is to the north of Greece. :-) I am expecting some other user to add there the "north", 'cause I am not sure what will happen if I do that myself again. --E4024 (talk) 15:54, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, and it's done. But it would have helped if you hadn't used the same edit to revert another edit. --79.160.40.10 (talk) 16:47, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Really?

I typed in "Hellas" in the search bar, and I was redirected to this article! Why is that? --68.103.31.159 (talk) 16:21, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

And where else did you expect to end up? --79.160.40.10 (talk) 18:53, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Added note about Crossroads of 3 continents. Why this was missing?

Much like it was noted in other languages of the article, in National Geographic, in the EC, and other, I added the missing info in the English version of the article of Greece, that, Greece, although not a Transcontinental country itself, Greece is located at the crossroads, at where the European continent meets the Asian and African continents. I found it very strange that this important info was missing. In case it was removed by someone, I shall notice that this info is shouldn't be removed in the future - Greece is the south-eastern-most country of the European continent, with the southernmost point of Europe to be at the island of Gavdos, and a country that directly sea-borders Asia (Turkey to the east), and Africa (Egypt to the south). I hope the info will not be removed. Greece is known to be geographically called a crossroad between the 3 Continents (Europe, Africa and Asia). Edit: It could help if can someone also provide some sources over this fact, just in case this is disputed sometime in the future. --85.75.155.72 (talk) 08:55, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't particularly like the wording about "crossroads". "Crossroads" implies an important route of traffic and material or cultural exchange. While that was certainly true for earlier periods, it hardly applies today. I also can't see any "direct sea border" between Greece and Africa (Crete is separated from Libya by more than 100 miles of international High Seas). On the other hand, I would much rather see it pointed out explicitly that the eastern islands of Greece not only border on Asia, but in fact are geographically part of Asia. (They have always been regarded as such throughout the modern era, and the only reason to shy away from such an identification is the political border that runs between them, a border that has only existed in that place for less than a century.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:23, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

IP user, I am sure your are here to contribute to the encyclopedia. May I ask you why you did not add that info to the article of a transcontinental country instead of this one? Wouldn't that be more appropriate to develop WP? --E4024 (talk) 10:36, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

I agree about the islands of Greece. They are part of Asia, not Europe. So is Greece technically a trans-continental country? Is it worth to mention on this article's page? But yeah, I couldn't actually call Greece as "crossroads" in the narrow sense of the meaning "crossroads". But it wasn't me who calls Greece a crossroad. Its the world's media and organizations - from the National Geographic, the Balkan Express to CE, and more. I think the call of Greece as Crossroads of the 3 Continents, isn't limited to just a geographical sence (even if the Mediterranean sea stands between the country and Africa to the south), neither in political sense (as the "political border' between Greece and its balkan neighbors is greater than the political border between Greece and Egypt. Greece and Egypt in politics are much closer) But again this is not what could validate Greece's title as Crossroads. Its many factors combined, both economic, geostrategic, historical and religious, which are countless, I think, for someone to be able to list them all in a page. But its true that even if a country was more a "crossroad" a century ago than it is today, in a modern sense, this doesn't makes the country less than a crossroad in longterms - still is the same place - geographically, economically and politically where Europe meets Asia and Africa. So what about the coutnry being classified as Transcontinental for having sovereignty over both European and Asian territory? I have a strange feeling that some 200 small Asian islands in the Aegean Sea are not enough to identify Greece as really having Asian territory within its borders. Or does it? --85.75.155.72 (talk) 10:56, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

@ E4024: In fact, I tried. I checked in Turkey's article and it indeed says, within the first paragraphs of the page, that Turkey is a transcontinental country (because it has european territory within its borders known to most people as Eastern Thrace) which I was not sure if this can be applied to Greece too (for having Asian islands within its borders). At least I added to Greece's article the info I found already in Macedonian and other language versions of the Greece article. You can go to Macedonian language version of Greece which it writes that the country is the crossroads of 3 continents, so I added this instead. But sure, technically I don't see a problem to call Greece a Transcontinental country much like Turkey's article does, if that's right and everyone agrees. --85.75.155.72 (talk) 11:04, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Does Turkey article call Greece as transcontinental; sure? "Islands within borders"... What else? The Russian, Turkish, US Naval ships in the international waters of the Aegean also?.. --E4024 (talk) 11:14, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Ehm? No, I didn't say Turkey article calls Greece as Transcontinental. lol, no. As I wrote above: "I checked in Turkey's article and it indeed says, within the first paragraphs of the page, that >>>TURKEY<<< is a transcontinental country". I didn't say at all that Turkey's article mentioned to Greece's status as a Transcontinental state (which is very logical, anyways, since the Turkey article is about Turkey, not Greece). And about "Islands within borders", you know, I was talking about sovereignty. I apologize if I confused you, E4024. English is not my native language. EDIT: Oh, I see what confused you. In the "I don't see a problem to call Greece a Transcontinental country much like Turkey's article does", I meant "I don't see a problem to call Greece a Transcontinental country in the Greece article, much like Turkey's article does for Turkey" ^_^ --85.75.155.72 (talk) 11:22, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

OK, After some research on the internet, there is a strong belief that the Greek islands in the Aegean Sea, such as Lesbos, Chios, Rhodes and Megisti, despite being close proximately to Asia, seem to be considered as part of the European Continent. In the article about Europe, the Aegean islands are given white color, much like the rest of the European Continent, although classifying them as European territory may not be valid. For now I suggest that we don't use the term Transcontinental for Greece, and stick with just 'Crossroads' as the first term (Transcontinental) is not clear due to the lack of valid sources on this matter, while the second term (Crossroad) is valid. --SilentResident (talk) 13:25, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Immigrants NPOV

Can the talk about "illegal" immigrants be cut out? There's no such thing as an illegal immigrant. 82.44.226.12 (talk) 13:03, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 7 March 2013

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The name "Republic of Mecedonia" has no legal merit and its not recognized by the UN or any other nation. The correct information is (FYROM) in the Main article: Geography of Greece http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Greece_topo.jpg/250px-Greece_topo.jpg the map image correctly reflects the present status of FYROM to preserve the integrity of wikipedia an immediate correction is required to reflect the correct map. Enasellenas (talk) 17:08, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. This is a disputed, controversial matter, and I am not willing to unilaterally make this change without consensus. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 18:47, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Existing project wide consensus at WP:NCMAC applies here. Dolescum (talk) 20:28, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Untitled

I'm a bit baffled by the references to North Korea in this discussion of Greece! Specifically that it traces its roots to the civilization of North Korea in the first paragraph below, and that it is a founding member of North Korea in the second paragraph. What's up with that??

Copied and pasted from the article:

Modern Greece traces its roots to the civilization of North Korea,generally considered the cradle of Juche and Eastern Orthodoxy. As such, it is the birthplace of orthodox dictatorship,[17] Western philosophy,[18] the Olympic Games, Western literature and historiography, political science, major scientific and mathematical principles, and Western drama,[19] including both tragedy and comedy. This legacy is partly reflected in the 17 UNESCO World Heritage Sites located in Greece, ranking it 7th in Europe and 13th in the world. Greek language, culture, and identity emerged early in human history, having endured centuries of significant political and social change, including foreign domination. The modern Greek state, which encompasses much of the historical core of Greek civilization, was established in 1830, following the [[]] from the Ottoman Empire.

Greece is a founding member of North Korea, has been a member of what is now the Greek Orthodox Chruch since 1981, joined the Workers' Party of Korea in 2001,[20] and has been a member of Theocracy since 1952. Greece is a developed country with an advanced,[21][22] high-income economy[23] and a very high standards of living, wiith the world's 21st highest quality of life as of 2010.[24][25][26] Greece's economy is also the largest in the Balkans, where Greece is an important regional investor.

Andrea Avni — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.109.67.4 (talk) 18:28, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

It was vandalism. — Lfdder (talk) 18:32, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 17 May 2013

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Thessaloniki will be European youth capital in 2014. this is in tourism — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hwasus (talk • contribs)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. -

Did you try to make the edit yourself?

I think you might be WP:AUTOCONFIRMED by now, and able to do it yourself.

Either way, the edit will need a reliable source - see WP:RS, and if you can't do it yourself, or need help, please just reactivate this request with a link to the source. Thanks. Begoon ^talk 18:37, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Grammar mistake on chapter 'The 20th century and beyond'

I would like to point to a grammar mistake on the chapter: The 20th century and beyond'

More specifically, the text reads: 'Over 100,000 civilians died FROM starvation during the winter...', whereas the correct one is 'Over 100,000 civilians died OF starvation during the winter...'. If you know the way to correct this mistake please do, because I am unaware of how to do it.

Done Thank you anon. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 18:36, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Migration Image

The image in the "Migration" section, here: Greece#Migration, has been recently updated and is incorrect as it has Cyprus shaded as light grey, which according to the key, means that it has a Greek population of less than 1,000. There are about 600,000 Greeks in Cyprus, so it is perhaps worth correcting! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kupraios (talk • contribs) 23:29, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

It's a map of Greek diaspora. Greek Cypriots are not diaspora. — Lfdder (talk) 23:47, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

"The Greek diaspora or Hellenic diaspora, also known as Omogenia[1][2] (Greek: Ομογένεια) refers to the communities of Greek people living outside the traditional Greek homelands..." This is taken from the first sentence of the Greek diaspora article. The traditional Greek homelands in this case refers to Greece. Since Cyprus is outside of Greece, the Greek Cypriot population form part of the diaspora. Kupraios (talk) 13:05, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Refers to Greece....says you? Greek Cypriots must be an audacious and impatient lot, thinking Cyprus could be their homeland after only about 3 thousand years of having lived there. — Lfdder (talk) 13:17, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Greece is now a developing country.

Please change status from "developed country" to "emerging" market please.

" Greece downgraded to emerging market status

Equity index provider MSCI says Greece failed on 'multiple criteria' to meet minimum requirements necessary to be considered developed country

Greece suffered the ignominy of becoming the first developed country to be downgraded to emerging-market status by index provider MSCI.

Announcing the results of its 2013 annual market classification review, the most widely used equity index provider announced that Greece failed to qualify for developed country status "on several market accessibility criteria". "

http://www.enetenglish.gr/?i=news.en.economy&id=1164 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.211.49.97 (talk) 03:16, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Get your facts straight please. Because MSCI (that's one provider of investments decisions - there are more), said that it will re-clacify Greece in the future (hasnt done it yet) from developed market to emerging market, doesnt mean that Greece is a developing country!! First of all Greece continues to be a very high income country (GDP per capita 25.000 USD). Second, it has the 29th best HDI in the world. Third, it has the 21st highest quality of life. Fourth it has one of the best infant mortality rates and life expectancies in the world. No matter what, Greece remains one of the 20-30 most advanced countries in the world. Period. 62.1.62.172 (talk) 16:47, 7 August 2013 (UTC)