Talk:Grecomans

Section talk

This is my "unsourced anti - Greek" propaganda!?! Jingby 11:35, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Most of them aren't even in English. Sources must be verifiable; we can't simply take your word for it, especially given your very specific agenda regarding the creation of this article in the first place. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 11:52, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

This article is awful. I think that it should be deleted. Sources should be neutral as well. - Sthenel 13:26, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

STAVROS SKRINIS - Nation-State Building Process and Cultural Diversity - Greece The dictatorial regime of the ‘fourth of August’ (1936) under General Ionnis Metaxas affected the lives of the minorities in Greece. The attempts to assimilate them within the framework of international law had annoyed the intolerant ultra-nationalists who were anxious to gain power over these ‘dangerous’ populations.The state’s position towards minorities became harsher, and measures were taken to assimilate them as quickly as possible.Defensive nationalism developed into a leading ideology in Greece. This intolerance had to do mainly with the national myth of superiority over all other ionalities, although it also resulted from the fragile Macedonian environment. All persons regarded as belonging to minorities, regardless of their age, were forced to attend evening courses in the Greek language; the use of other languages in public was prohibited (Divani: 1995, 115). Measures geared towards assimilating minorities not only failed,but were responsible for greater alienation, which had negative results during the German occupation (Divani: 1995, 159). Some, for example, took the German side, which forced them to flee after the liberation (Divani: 1995, 258; Tsitselikis: 1996, 286–289)...Jingby 13:41, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

The Greek nation-state is a relatively recent entity, despite the belief held by many Greek people. Greeks claim to be the descendants of a great people and the inheritors of a great civilisation, which after a troublesome period reclaimed its heritage. Little by little, Greece claimed lands not as densely populated by Greeks as the southern part of the country. The Koutsovlachs, Slavs and Muslims also lived in these lands...STAVROS SKRINIS Sources should be neutral as well.Jingby 13:54, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I mean, all nations are new, but the Greek ethnic group isn't. Greek nationalism had as a goal to create a nation state for the Greeks just like many other major ethnic groups begun to have at the time. Trying to diminish the Greek identity because of this is illogical, same with trying to perceive such pejorative terms in such a way that tries to validate them without any real arguments all the while diminishing these people's identity. 85.75.213.201 (talk) 23:58, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

In the new state, there were Albanian-speakers with Greek national consciousness, called Arvanites. The ministry of education claimed that Arvanites were considered part of the Greek nation,due to their Illyrian origin (akin to the Greeks). This argument automatically incorporated Albanian speakers into the Greek nation and solved the problem of Albanian settlements in the Greek state (Koulouri: 1988, 76). Although the existence of an Albanian minority in Greece could not be doubted, Albanians (Arvanites) in Greece did not have a national consciousness and were assimilated by the indigenous population (Veloudis: 1982, 67). Jingby 14:00, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Nothing cited here has anything to do the term, anthropologically or even historically. You just synthesize (mostly from obscure and dubious sources) and apply a term to people (i.e. Arvanites, Aromanians, Karamanlides, Sarakatsani etc) with any ethnolinguistic, cultural, historical or whatnot specificity. This is the definition of original research, to say the least. --LapisExCoelis 22:35, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Shall we propose it for speedy deletion? ·ΚέκρωΨ· 23:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I think yes. "Pretending to be Greek" and phrases like this are offensive and nothing more than nationalistic views of particular countries. - Sthenel 11:43, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I saw this word used in books about Aromanians, reffering to those aromanians who preffered Greek-language education (as oppose to aromanian/romanian language education). It was indeed used as a pejorative term, but the word notion exist and it worth a Wikipedia article. We are not debating here if the position of those people was good or not.--MariusM 07:58, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

"The Greeks in North Macedonia" by the historian Michael Chrysanthopoulos. "Kyromanos" publications, Thessalonica, 1997. ...Greeks natives and refugees, townpeople and nomads, Grecomans, Vlachs and Sarakatsans, frightened of the cruel regime under which they live and disappointed by the indifference of the Greek state which ignores them, wait for the end or the start of a great Greek course... 89.215.246.92 08:46, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Boeschoten, Riki van - Code-switching, Linguistic Jokes and Ethnic Identity: Reading Hidden Transcripts in a Cross-Cultural Context Journal of Modern Greek Studies - Volume 24, Number 2, October 2006, pp. 347-377 ...with a strong ethnic identity: “Grecomans” can only pretend to be “Greeks” and their “true nature” is bound to be revealed in due course...

Stathis N. Kalyvas-Department of Politics- New York University The Dynamics of Violence in Civil War: Evaluating the Impact of Ethnicity on Violence-Submitted for comments to the members of LiCEP, Duke, April 2000

...his expectation at this point was that their area would be annexed by Yugoslavia. As a result, the Pontic-speakers switched their allegiance and joined the Greek Right. To complicate things even more, a minority among the Slavic-Speakers (condescendingly called Grekomani)defected to the Right as well. This study does not specify violence levels... 89.215.246.92 09:16, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

So what is this fuss about...

Guys, I'm rather unimpressed with the behaviour shown on both sides here. First off, can everybody please stop revert-warring over those "see also" links on Arvanites and the other related articles? I'm loath to protect them all, but I have half a mind blocking whoever continues reverting there without proper discussion.

And now let's discuss, here, please. What's the issue?

1) Should there be an article about the term "Grecoman"? (Personally, I don't see why there shouldn't.)

2) Is the current article satisfactory? (Personally, I'd still say the sourcing is not very good - we basically still have no reliable source actually focussing on the term and discussing it in any depth; what are its origins? What's the linguistic etymology and meaning of the "-man" suffix? Who first called whom by that term? Did it always have the same ideological connotations? etc. - We only have sources confirming in passing that the term was used in some situation or other.)

3) If we can agree that the article as such is legitimate, then why should or shouldn't the "see also" links exist? (Personally, I see no good reason not to have them; once it's been established that the topic of this article overlaps with those, then why not link between them?)

To Jingiby: Please don't just throw out-of-context quotes at us from each and every article that happens to mention the term somewhere. What exactly are you trying to show with your quotations? If you mean the fact that there were population groups of non-Greek-speaking origin who opted to become part of the Greek nation, then there's no need for debate, I don't think anybody is disputing that.

To the others: Please, if you want to continue opposing those "see also" links, be more specific about the objections you have. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:52, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

The article should focus on the term itself, as you rightly suggest. It should not be a lamentation of these people's "wrongful conversion" to Hellenism, as Jingiby would prefer: "The Grecomans are a product of Greek nationalistic propaganda." Each group has a distinct history, after all, which is why it is best left to their respective articles. Finally, adding this article to the "see also" section of Aromanians and Arvanites is the same as putting Kike or Yid at the bottom of Jew or Nigger at the bottom of African-American. It's just not on. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 12:19, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

The citatation was not correct!The delited text was next:

"The Grecomans are result of a higher status which the Greek culture and the Greek Orthodox Church have had among the Christian Orthodox population on the Balkans during the Ottoman rule and of the identification between religious identity and national identity in this period. They are also effect of a Greek nationalistic propaganda during 19th and 20th Century as for example 4th of August Regime and the Greek military junta of 1967-1974." Jingby 08:03, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

This is a very POV source that tries to give validity to a very pejorative term in order to diminish the Greek identity of these people. It is almost ironic how many will try to claim the same of Greeks and not see how much they try with such non-arguments. 85.75.213.201 (talk) 00:01, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Not all of these peopels identify him self as ethnic Greeks.This is a fact. Exampel: Bulgarian Human Rights in Macedonia Rainbow (political party)Jingby 14:01, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't their anti-Greek hatred make them the antithesis of the "гъркомани"? According to the definition you yourself have provided, the term means "pretending to be Greek". The groups you refer to do nothing of the sort, they are consciously non-Greek if not anti-Greek in their orientation. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 14:16, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Is it necessary to tie this term with self-identifying or not self-identifying as Greek? In general it mean enculturation (dictionary: "the process whereby individuals learn their group's culture, through experience, observation, and instruction"). There are plenty of examples, even on wikipedia where persons have changed their self-declared ethnic group multiple times. It is easy to change that because it takes one word. Enculturation on the other hand happens only once. Mr. Neutron 14:25, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

The article is about the pejorative epithet, which is only applied to those who have a Greek national consciousness. Those who don't would instead be regarded as unredeemed Bulgarian brothers by the Bulgarians, no doubt; they certainly wouldn't be the object of such derision. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 14:45, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I thought Grecoman means fanatic Greek, is there any source (in English) saying something else? Kapnisma ? 19:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

References

Compare with Bulgarisation

If this article is deleted, then Bulgarisation is also to be deleted. Both are used pejoratively and are hate-terms. Compare with Hellenisation which is done to have a very positive meaning. I can list over a 100 of sources where Hellenisation is accompanied by killing of population of entire villages. Lantonov 16:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Actions speak louder than words mate. I just want to see 100. Off you go. Read and learn. Kalambaki2 21:11, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Ottoman Macedonian action

In first place, thermin Grecomans is from "Macedonia action" times (from times of Bulgarian independent church - Egzarhia egsist in the end of XIX and earlier XX century before Balkan wars). Before that times all easternorthodox christian population in european Turkey (Ottoman empire) were under the greek Constantinople patriarch. After the begining of independent Bulgarian egzarkhat large percent of macedonian and trachian slavic population in that times without clean ethnic status after the big propaganda from Sofia over the opening of bulgarian churches and schools all over the european Turkey from Durres to Constantinople became "Bulgarians". From the others which didnt want to became part of egzarkhat call them "bulgaromans", "bulgarophiles", or mostly "bugarashi". Propaganda from Sofia was: that all slavic population in Turkey is bulgarian by nationality. Amongh the slavic and aromanian (wallach) population in Macedonia (areas of Monastiri-Bitolj, Ohrid, Resen, Kozani, Florina, Drama, Seres...) official Athens make new agitation movement against the bulgarian propaganda. From the other groops they were called "Grecomans"...In north and north-western part and valley of Vardar river (upper) of which is today FYROM lot of population have serbian ethnic fillings. Bulgaromans and Grecomans, called them "srbomans" "serbomans". Belgrade made agitation for serbs there. Opening schools and getting serbian priests in serbian (or serboman) villages. So, that period of ottoman Macedonia history is fool of propaganda and military actions betwwen this tree groups. Bulgaroman partizans were mostly called "komiti", grecoman "andarti" and serboman "chetnici". Forth group were among part of Wallachian-aromanian villagers from Bucharest which government open romanian churches and schools. Belgrade, Athens and Bucharest had strong propaganda war between themselves, and all of groups had a propaganda and real military war against Sofia, egzarkhat and bugarashi - bulgarophili. Towsends of people die there in that times. All of this actions ended after the Balcan wars 1912-1913.

• komitadji
• chetniks
• aromanian language - situation in greece (andarti - greek militia)

--Boris Godunov (talk) 15:19, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Some pages about this

• Борба за Македонију, fight for Macedonia, serbian wikipedia (википедија)
• Гръцка въоръжена пропаганда в Македония, greek military propaganda in Macedonia, bulgarian wikipedia (Уикипедия)
• Μακεδονικός αγώνας, Macedonian question, greek wikipedia (Βικιπαίδεια)
• Istoria aromânilor, Perioada otomană history of Aromanians, ottoman period, romanian wikipedia
• Struggle for Macedonia, english wikipedia
• Demographic history of Macedonia, english wikipedia

--Boris Godunov (talk) 16:02, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

POV

Pyraechmes, please, provide reliable references about your strange statement, that the slavophone Greeks are not from Slavic origins. If no, I will revert you! Jingby (talk) 19:33, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

The article clearly says: Grecomans (Bulgarian: Гъркомани, Garkomani, Macedonian: Гркомани, Grkomani, Romanian: Grecomani, Albanian: Grekomanë) is a pejorative term used in Bulgaria, the Republic of Macedonia, Romania and Albania for Greeks of real or perceived Arvanite, Aromanian or Slavic origin.... Provide references abouth the Greek origins of these people or I will revert you again! Jingby (talk) 10:14, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

No my friend!!! You first find some sources that prove the non-Greek origin of non-Greek speakers and then edit the article. Most of the article is unsourced. POV, POV and POV and some sources for sauce for the cooking. Nice cookers!! Pyraechmes (talk)Chrusts 10:26, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Guys, i think you both misunderstood what this article is about. The previous version wasn't asserting anything about the origin of the people that were/are characterized as Grecomans. It just describes the context of its use. Pyraechmes i think your three additions are not nesessary, and it's not even accurate to assert that because they identify ethnically as Greeks today they are of Greek origin. They might have been of Greek or Slavic origin in the cultural/linguistic or ethnic sense, whatever (i'm not an anthropologist), we don't need to assert anything here.--Δρακόλακκος (talk) 10:48, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Δρακόλακκος. There is a whole book in German as a source: Die Slaven in Griechenland, von Max Vasmer, (Verlag der Akademie der Wissenschaften, Berlin 1941) Jingby (talk) 11:22, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

See also: Fields of wheat, hills of blood: passages to nationhood in Greek Macedonia, 1870-1990, Anastasia N. Karakasidou, University of Chicago Press, 1997, ISBN 0226424944, Jingby (talk) 11:39, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Read also: The evolution of Slavic society and the Slavic invasions in Greece, The First Major Slavic Attack on Thessaloniki, A.D. 597. Speros Vryonis Jr. (Hesperia, Volume 50, Issue 4, Greek Towns and Cities: A Symposium (Oct. - Dec., 1981), 378-390. Jingby (talk) 11:56, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Pyraechmes what a strange theory, people that speak non-Greek language and follow non-Greek customs must be ethnically Greek. Hmm, very appropriate?, by your logic I am a Greek and dont know It, so I Jingiby and ever other user from the Balkans. PMK1 (talk) 13:28, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

No my friend PMK1, you have a theory. And this theory is totaly inconsequent. I am writing about facts. Customs in neighbor nations in Balkans are quite similar. That doesn't mean that there are no ethnic borders in Balkans. Slavs came in the area which was inhabited by Greeks. Now tell me, who followed the Greek customs? The "ethnic Macedonians" followed the customs that were existing before them in the land. That makes sense. The opposite, that you claim is totaly illogical. When someone declares that he is a Greek is a fact. When you say "Maybe they are Greeks but their origin is not Greek" that's a theory. You count the ethnic identity by mother tongue, that's a mistake. You want everyone to call "Macedonians" the people of Skopje, just because they say they are. In the same time you don't want to call Greeks the slavophone-Greeks, even if they say they are Greeks. That's hypocrisy! Now tell me who's the rational? Who's treating theories here? You project your ideas as the only acceptable, even if they are just speculations, and you consider all the others as "strange", "freak" etc. Maybe you are addicted in propaganda....Pyraechmes (talk) Chrusts 07:52, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Except it is not just ethnic Macedonians that use the term "Grecoman". Bulgarians and Albanians use it too. Your point about "speculation" and "theories" is moot, since the term is used for people of perceived non-Greek origin. The fact is, people who use the term "Grecoman" in the real world use it to refer to people who identify as Greeks that they perceive are not of Greek origin (things that lead them to do this include mother tongue). This has to be reflected in the article. Whether it is right or wrong is not important, what actually happens is. BalkanFever 09:53, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

When I wrote about speculations I didn't meant the use of the term. I meant the theories and speculations about the origin of Greeks called by others as Grecomans. If you are right, then we have to delete the word "...real..." in the sentence "...real or perceived...". And if that happens I can't actually understand the scope of the sentences about the mixings in the Balkans. It looks like it implies that all non-Greek speaking Greeks are not of Greek origin, and has nothing to do with this article. It may be discussed in other articles. About the offence of the Greeks called Grecomans it is obvious why....It doesn't need explanations or saurces.Pyraechmes (talk) Chrusts 10:17, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh please. Grecoman is a widely used term in the Balkan language for people who pretend to be Greeks or who are seen by others as being non-ethnically Greek. The term is used in Aromanian, Bulgarian, Albanian, Romanian, Macedonian and Serbian. Similar articles are Bulgarophiles and Serbomans. This term is often used by many people when refering to a family which has a split ethnic identity. Some people might say the Grecoman side of the family while the other half identify as ethnic Macedonians. It is hard to see your point that they are "purely" ethnically anything, when half of the family thinks they are Greek and the other half think that they are Macedonian. People dont realise that one brother may identify as a "Greek" while the other brother identifies as a "Macedonian". PMK1 (talk) 09:03, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

And your POV is that they are Grecomans? Why aren't they Makedontsomans?Pyraechmes (talk)Chrusts 12:32, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I am going to revert you, Pyraechmes. This is not a POV. See:

• Population exchange in Greek Macedonia: the rural settlement of refugees 1922–1930, Elisabeth Kontogiorgi, 2006, ISBN 0199278962, p. 233-234, Oxford University Press.

• Ourselves and others: the development of a Greek Macedonian cultural identity since 1912, Peter A.Mackridge, Eleni Yannakakis, Helenē Giannakakē Berg Publishers, 1997, ISBN 1859731384, p. 148. Jingby (talk) 14:05, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Jingby, As you can read in the above sources you mentinoned, antropolological research shows that slavic speaking Greeks are of Greek origin.Pyraechmes (talk)Chrusts 09:36, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, this is described as official Greek position, but I have read many other positions there. Jingby (talk) 10:39, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but I don't see this potition in your editings in the article. I only see the different POV.Pyraechmes (talk)Chrusts 11:02, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Then, read it again: "...In Greece this people are regarded to be ethnic Greeks,.."Jingby (talk) 13:43, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Now I am going to make the sources visible. All of them are describing as Grecomens exclusivly Slavic - speaking people. Do not revert them, please. Jingby (talk) 11:42, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Pyraechmes what are you trying to prove? That people who had a non-Greek language, non Greek customs, many of whom originally belonged to a Church other than the Greek Orthodox one were Ethnic Greeks! By that assesment to, I am a Greek (I just dont know it yet!). There is an invisible line, North of which the population is exposed to their own propaganda and south of which the people are exposed to Greek propaganda. Yet ethnically we are the same people. PMK1 (talk) 12:24, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I think now, we have a short, neutral, well sourced article, haven't we? Jingby (talk) 14:46, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

PMK1, there was a border between slavic speaking Greeks and slavic speaking Bulgarians. Different identity, customs, culture etc. Only same language. There was no ethnic macedonian race then. Some people remained in FYROM accepted the propaganda of Yugoslavia and now they are ethnic Macedonians. But some of them are of Greek origin and some of Bulgarian. The birth of a new nation can't change the borders between Greeks and Bulgarians. So you may be an ethnic Macedonian but your anchestors were either Greek or Bulgarian. Jingiby, I think we should clear the reason why "Grecomans" is an offenisive term for the Greeks, and then we will be OK.Pyraechmes (talk)Chrusts 15:09, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

I think the whole sentence about its offenisivenes have to be removed. I myself even do not accept that as pejorative. This is only specific historical term for me. Leave this. Nothing else. And make a difference between biological origins, national conciousness, language, customs, religion, cultire and so on. My relatives live in Greece and RoM. They all have a different ethnic conciousness. I also know people from Greek origin with Bulgarian conciousness here. This all make a complex from differenf components in the social human's life . Jingby (talk) 17:00, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Pyraechmes, If that is what you truly believe you need to wake up, and stop listening to old folk tales and start reading history. PMK1 (talk) 20:58, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you Jingiby that there was a mixture of nations and national identities in Southern Balkans. But, that was the scope of the Macedonian Struggle. To clear up the mess. Now, if that was right or wrong, I don't know. A lot of things happened in order to put ethnological borders betwwen Greeks and Bulgarians and a lot of hatred came up after these years. But I don't agree with PMK1, who is trying to prove that there were no Greeks at all, in Southern Balkans. If there were no Greeks, then why all this mess? All this massacre inside families and villages? There was a scope. The Greeks for Greece and the Bulgarians for Bulgaria. There were also some people who din't take place in the Struggle, maybe because they couldn't chose a side. Those people, Tito operated to create a new nation. So far, so good. But the birth of a new nation in the area cannot change the history of the other neighbor nations. It cannot claim that everything was born, lived or flied over this area it was "ethnic Macedonian". Everyone can understand this.Pyraechmes (talk)Chrusts 07:42, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Beside the point. My grand father is born in Nova Zagora. His godmother was Bulgarian and she wanted to name him Kroum. Fortunately, she changed her mind and named him Evangelos. His family was accomondated by a Bulgarian family because that time, Turks were chasing the Greeks.Pyraechmes (talk)Chrusts 07:55, 16 May 2009 (UTC)